but would properly a chosen $100k cable system not make a 7 figure system in a dedicated architecturally designed room sound better? I sure don't know...
Are audiophiles still out of their minds?
I've been in this hobby for 30 years and owned many gears throughout the years, but never that many cables. I know cables can make a difference in sound quality of your system, but never dramatic like changing speakers, amplifiers, or even more importantly room treatment. Yes, I've evaluated many vaunted cables at dealers and at home over the years, but never heard dramatic effect that I would plunk $5000 for a cable. The most I've ever spent was $2700 for pair of speaker cables, and I kinda regret it to this day. So when I see cable manufacturers charging 5 figures for their latest and "greatest" speaker cables, PC, and ICs, I have to ask myself who buys this stuff. Why would you buy a $10k+ cable, when there are so many great speakers, amplifiers, DACs for that kind of money, or room treatment that would have greater effect on your systems sound? May be I'm getting ornery with age, like the water boy says in Adam Sandler's movie.
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...and the rare and lucky monkey escapes the grinder, leaving him to his organ. The new Kia owner vs. the new Bugatti owner. Who is 'happier'? And does it really matter, or make a difference? It just amazes me that these threads go on for as long as they do, resolution-free except for the claims and counters. Ah, well....carry on. *pfht* |
Asvjerry, it takes two to tango. The sucker who buys $10k+ cable thinking it's money well spent. And the cable manufacturer who thinks there's a sucker around each corner and charges $10k+. You take the sucker out, and no more ludicrously priced cables. But it's difficult to educate a sucker. I suppose we were all suckers when we started in this hobby, but some of us saw the BS in high end and stopped buying expensive wire lined with fairy dust and infused with rainbow juice. |
*LOL* Drac, you got that straight... I was just popping back in to respond to the 'Big Question', your #1 at the top of all this... ABSOLUTELY STONE CRAZY. Some more that others. Personally, I just do what I want that amuses me, with a 'budget' that in relation to what I read here approaches zilch. I'm building my own speakers (not the cabinets...the drivers...) because I can't afford the alternative and would rather 'roll my own' anyway. Some guys build amps for much the same reason, so I feel in good company in that respect. The challenge, the satisfaction of doing so. If they aren't 'perfect', so f'n what. I don't force anyone to listen to them. But they do...(DIY Walsh Speakers, on YouTube) Not an 'audiophile recording', to be sure. Not a great camera...not a great 'space' to do so in...and recording an omni with a mono mic isn't going to Ever give anyone more of a clue other than 'they work'.... ...but they do...and, if you were 'here', I'll bet I can make you blink and the jaw drop a tad. I'd love to have a 'serious audiophile' come by for a listen. They don't seem to exist in my local focal locus (west NC). I've been contemplating inviting anyone from Moog to come by for a beer if I could borrow their ears for an hour for some semi-serious listening.... But that's just me ranting about my 'predilection', much like most of the above previous to this...just more air, heating the room...*G* Oh, yeah...then there's the fact that I don't listen to that of 'my age group'. No dead white Europeans on a mega-buck TT for this Medicared mortal. How about deadmau5 for a break, ya'll? Turn it up and dust off the woofs. Good for the blood flow, I've heard...;) |
If i have 100k to spend on that TV or any piece of audio gear, the most common sense thing for me to do is to invest that kind of money into my favourite recording stereo firm. Get them to upgrade their hardware, or employ a better sound engineer ect.. I guess the materials that they produce would certainly become more enjoyable, wouldn't that be the best bang for the buck? |
philipwu 149 posts 06-07-2016 9:23am "If i have 100k to spend on that TV or any piece of audio gear, the most common sense thing for me to do is to invest that kind of money into my favourite recording stereo firm. Get them to upgrade their hardware, or employ a better sound engineer ect.. I guess the materials that they produce would certainly become more enjoyable, wouldn't that be the best bang for the buck?" We could all sign a petition to stop the overly aggressive dynamic range compression that's been going on for the past 20 years or so. And it's not just CDs but SACDs, vinyl and even hi res downloads. Hel-looo! It's small wonder folks can't hear the difference in high end cables or whatever. Cheerios |
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jmcgrogan2...Yeah, it all resembles a 'bitch fest' of monumental proportions...nobody's ever happy, no resolutions, no exit strategy, no cures, whiner diners...*L* I swear, sometimes it seems Mapman and moi' seem to be the only posters that are relatively happy with our current 'state of the state'. He's apparently in possession of enough gear to require a good sized U-Haul to move, me because I ain't crazed enough to chase the receding numerals behind the decimal point to the light at the end of the tunnel which burned out last week...;) The 'not so divine' comedy. *L* I tune in for a chuckle, and play the devil's advocate. I'd rather we'd all have a beer in some other situation and agree 'to each his own', but I suspect someone would spike mine with ground glass or something that would turn me into a wild animal that would have to be 'put down'.... We should all take up gardening, or knitting...something less intense...*L*;) |
I'm happy to take advantage of the spoils of this fickle hobby. I've had some nicer, preowned gear, (nothing extravagant) and the majority has been great. The people in these forums are generally helpful and I'm appreciative. Sometimes posters come from a place I can't understand, but there's no telling what they've been through or the life they've lived. I can't help but think this forum may be someone's lifeline, somewhere. I guess audiophiles are still crazy, I've seen worse things... |
Jerry---Brilliant Group! I much prefer them to Zappa---both lyrically and musically---at the thing they both did. By the way, that’s The Bonzo’s playing in the subterranean bar in The Beatles Magical Mystery Tour film. Vivian Stanshall is the member singing "My Pink Half..."---he died a while back. Bonzo member Neil Innes was responsible, along with Monthy Python member Eric Idle, for The Beatles parody The Rutles. I saw them live in the 90’s at The Troubadour in L.A. Just a fantastically talented bunch of guys! I missed the show, but I know a couple guys who saw The Bonzos live at Fillmore in the early 70’s. Roger Ruskin Spear had one of his robots on stage, operating it with a remote control. |
bdp24...*L* Hey, I'm just happy that someone else shares my appreciation of the BDDDB's 'musical deviance'. And just so no one gets cranky on us for going 'off topic' in this thread, well, Yes, some audiophiliacs are crazy in dimensions that don't encompass 'mere' equipment...;) I have a love of hearing the talented types 'goofing off', 'sonic puns' if you will...the Bonzos, Zappa ("Flakes" is a favorite, having been born and raised in southern CA, I can attest to his take on some of the residents), P.D.Q. Bach, and lately Salut Salon (chamber music with a twist...check out the 'live' YouTube vid). If you can't make fun of it and have fun with it, IMHO there's something seriously wrong with you. *L* That kinda relates to my 'take' on our 'hobby'. I thought we're supposed to be listening to the music and not focusing on How it's being reproduced. There's so many 'steps' 'twixt the performer and our ears these days that total accuracy is a chimera. If one desires perfection, go to the live performance or talk your way into the studio, And the latter will shatter any presumptions you may have held about what you've beheld in your listening environment. Studio 'enhancements' and the equipment used in recording (or for that matter, any 'live' concert) are SOP now.... Besides....I've read enough about wires. When materials experts say that 100% oxygen-free copper is just fine and everything else is basically hype and hyperbole, I don't see a rational reason to disagree. I can't hear dog whistles, but I know when I see one being blown that Something is occurring. Same with speakers...I can't hear 20Khz. If it's loud enough, I can sense it's 'there', much like 10hz in the opposite 'direction'. IMHO, 'perfection' doesn't exist. If one wants 'perfection', give it up, and become an entity of pure energy. And I'll wager a five buck bet you'll not be happy There, either. *L* I'd be pissed, personally. Food, sex, beer, and all the other things we enjoy become impossible and pointless. ;) And the 'music of the spheres' will likely sound like static and Really Tick You Off. For the remainder of eternity. Now, That sounds like Hell. *LOL* But, if you've got the bucks, buy fancy cables, y'all. *shrug* To each... |
dracule1 OP 890 posts 06-08-2016 10:13pm "$100K TV is to a videophile as $100K speaker is to an audiophile. I know of no videophile who has spent more than couple of hundred on wires. At least videophiles know wire is wire." On the other hand how many videophiles really care about sound quality? Not to mention how good does sound quality actually have to be for explosions and digital CGI effects? Cheers, geoff kait machina dynamica |
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Cables do make a difference, but different cable (even from the same manufacturer) sound differently when attached to its components. I used to use Audioquest Everst/Sky which I decided sounded best with my stuff. I tried some of the Wm F Lowe Signature (top of the line Audioquest) which cost far more, but sounded awful. Also tried much less expensive ClearCables which sounded even better. Its a crap shoot, keep trying until you win. |
I've used JPS cables over the years, from basic to SC3 (Aluminata top model = too expensive for me). I find there are two factors, do I like this sound profile or not, and then, how far up the chain can I afford to go. Yes, SC3 sounds better than the original SC, although both are enjoyable in my system. This whole process of cable fitting does make the system sound better, but it is no revolution. Better boxes make more difference than better cables, supports etc. |
I enjoy meaningful discussions regarding the performance of gear when input is experienced based and reasonably objective. Such discussions about price (or value) by definition have little meaning as price is entirely a relative analyses. Certain individuals find $100,000 wires cheap, some do not; where is the profit in belittling one or the other. It all seams so trite, wreaks of jealousy, and ignorance. Get over it, accept your lot in life and enjoy it for what it is; we only get one. You may find the whole journey a little more enjoyable. |
As a 35 year Audiophile, and Hifi store owner in thd U.K I learned many lessons Being from the states when I arrived in the U.K I went looking to see which brands I would stock. U.S products were being jacked up in some cases over 100%. I educated the people on these practices. Which helped me gain respect. The first years because of all the scams out there and many from U.S in yhd 2000 To 2006 range. Rule of thumb minimum if a product cost for example $1,000 In parts it is marked up 4 times that then overhead this unit maybe $5,000 The dealer gets on average 45% off of that. Commercial brand cables Such as Synergistic research for example a 8-10 times markup Way over priced With these bells and whistles like stock plug in modules for active shield, Gor $400 more that little black box makes cable dound better. Inside maybe $25 in parts stock model $10 . Totals Audiophiles need to be much More educated and research.I have found smaller companies non big name You are getting many times better parts no dealers Mark up. The consumer winds. I used to have $75k MBL electronics ,fantastic sounding yes but at a huge price . Now I look for the best product gor least amount of money spent . For example and shocking no more $1500 on interconnects . I am in the process of having custom built amp and preamp with nothing but yhe best parts quality 3x less money then the big names and much better parts quality and as good or better then CJ,AR Ayon, Rogue, you name it . For cables the WiRe absolutely does matter. I use thd best in my electronics such as Neotech Single Crystal Copper And for signal the best out there in the Silver Gold Alloy . I found a cable company Using the Neotech wire and using exceptional connectors .Zenwave Audio Cables I bought their 2nd from the top using this same Silver Gold Alloy for $550 a meter Unbleached Cotter jacket Teflon over the wires and the excellent Copper rhodium gold interconnects from Furutech. I have had many $$ from all the big names These cables beat cables 3x yhe price music just sounds like in the room Using wire with fevers few grain boundaries everything is more transparent and at ease. Say goes gor the power and Loudspeaker cables. The money goes into the product not the advertising. One closing comment these adverts out there .there is s ton oof politics in online And paper advertising the big full page ads get more favorable reviews And comments. At present my reference preamp Direct Headed Triode preamp Starting to get popular. Red wine audio, Coincidence for example. My unit is much less money and a better product yhen both. Pass labs 1st watt SE Clone amp .stuffed with nothing but the best ,companies put average quality parts in to save cost. Just keep this in mind .that is how Modwright has done well Modding - making a product much better through premium parts and higher Build engineering. Anyone looking for assistance just email me I am retired but Allways a Audiophile .with a new product and system Synergy a very important word .Spend less $$ and get more !! Enjoy your music !! |
I’m pretty sure no self respecting audiophile pays retail. Not in this economy. I also suspect one reason why some audiophile products are priced so high is because of the cost of maintaining dealer networks. Like the $500 toilet seat it depends on how many of a particular thing one expects to sell or if each one is customized, etc. As well as developmental costs, cost of advertising, whatever. Not to mention whatever the market will bare. |
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Jafant I use Kimber KCAG from my turntable to my phono preamp (Aesthetix Io partial eclipse upgrade) and then JPS SC3 from the phono preamp to the preamp (Einstein the tube mk2), JPS SC2 from the preamp to the Atma-Sphere MA-1 amps, and JPS SC3 to the Audiokinesis Dream Maker speakers. Works very well. |
wattsperchannel, " Certain individuals find $100,000 wires cheap, some do not; where is the profit in belittling one or the other. It all seams so trite, wreaks of jealousy, and ignorance. Get over it, accept your lot in life and enjoy it for what it is; we only get one. You may find the whole journey a little more enjoyable." Hmm, and your comment isn’t belittling and a little self serving like you have it all together in life? Your type of attitude feeds into the justification of ludicrously priced wires. It seems you are the one ignorant of the cable industry with its crazy markup and backhanded deals between dealers and manufacturers where the markup can be easily over 10x and customers get ripped off. I know because I have insider friends who deal with cable manufacturers. Find me an individual who thinks $100k wire is cheap. Or are you just pulling that out of your nether region? Me jealous of $100K cables? I have no choice but to laugh at this nonsense. The only profit I’m hoping for is to steer some newbie audiophile away from these high priced high end cables, which are complete sham. Thank you for such an enlightening response. I guess just have to accept my life isn’t perfect like yours. |
jl35, even with those "good deals" from direct sale cable manufacturers, they are making a healthy profit, much more than if one were to produce and sell a speaker or amplifier. Why do you think there are so many guys out there making cables from their home? It’s relatively easy to make, requires no degree or competent knowledge in engineering or electronics, and materials are cheap, unless you start buying from those "audiophile" wire producers. I’m not criticizing the small guy producing cable from his home. Usually they’re reasonably priced. I know a guy who made good tube amps. He found out how much markup there was for cables through an associate who made audiophile cables for a living. Now he’s making cables, and his tube amps are history. The markups for $100K cables are insane. |
actually some of those guys are engineers. and if you buy the cable used, you can sell for very little loss after a few years. is the percentage markup greater the more expensive the cable? I know nothing of the business model. I never worry about the guys who spend a fortune on new cables. if not for them, we couldn't buy used cables. |
I never said all weren't engineers. There are cables that are made with proven engineering practice by engineers. Whether they sound good to you or not is a different matter. "I never worry about the guys who spend a fortune on new cables. if not for them, we couldn’t buy used cables." Well, you have a point there. Let the suckers buy them first, and you reap the benefits later. "I had Transparent XL and Super MM2 for 8 years, at a $50 total cost after I sold them" So you do know the business model. Crazy markup. |
Transparent Ultra XL I meant to say. Yes, I am aware of the great markup in general terms. I also found these expensive cables to sound better than the dozen less expensive ones I compared them to. I wanted to like the cheap ones better. I thought of it as giving myself a loan, enjoying the cables, then getting my money back. That's the great thing about used cables, the price goes down steep and fast, then holds value for years. So encourage those that don't care about the cost to keep buying expensive new cables... |
The only profit I’m hoping for is to steer some newbie audiophile away from these high priced high end cables, which are complete sham. @dracule1 , did you used to post on Audio Review forums decades ago under the moniker eyespy or mtrycrafts? I ask because you come off the same way as those blokes back in the day (1990's?). Acting as if you are out trying to save the world, when inside it seems like all you really desire is a good tussle. You live for the antagonism, it gives you a natural high. You are reveling in this troll thread.......ahhh good bait!!! |
dracule1 OP894 posts06-10-2016 5:29pmwattsperchannel,Dude how about you go back and re-read my words and this time try to think about their meaning. I do not believe you understood what I said. I am sorry if I was not clear. All of your comments about price are meaningless. You are trying to instill your very simple, very narrow (mis)understanding of the such things on the masses. Why do you insist on thinking your interpretation of a wholly subjective matter like relative-value is the right one? Maybe spend some time evaluating the pathology of such behavior as opposed to defacing innocent bystanders. Like I said above, you might find the journey a little more enjoyable. |
Eattsperchannel, I’m not your "dude". I never said mine was the right one. So you are misinterpreting my opinion as fact. All of us are expressing our opinion. You are calling my views on price of cables narrow minded and I’m defacing innocent bystanders. Did I call out anyone particular? No. While you are on your high horse belittling me and my opinion, look in the mirror? Or did I hit a nerve because you have ridiculously priced cables in your system? You're taking this too personally. So take a chill pill, homie. |
