Are audiophiles still out of their minds?

mitch2
1,253 posts
06-04-2016 5:03pm
"Geoff said,
"For sale on Audiogon as we speak SR Black Fuse...(lots of stuff edited)....250v Slow-Blow $89.95"
Sorry for my sluggishness today but was there a point buried somewhere in the quoted post?"

You might consider asking Dracule. I bet he gets it. 

Cheers,

Geoff Kait
Machina Dramatica
advanced audio conceits

I think Geoff was pointing out how out of hand high end has become. There are suckers who would spend that kind of money for a fuse. Not saying these fuses don't the change the sound, just that they're not worth the money asked by these manufactures.  Sorry if I offended any suckers.

LOL, love those overhyped fuse discriptors. "Premier, super, supreme, quantum..." I think these guys putting Kim Jung Un’s propaganda team to shame.

I think Geoff was pointing out how out of hand high end has become.

Having had a great many interchanges with Geoff in these forums, no, I don’t think that was his point.

Notwithstanding the $20 system he mentioned earlier in the thread that he currently uses :-)

Regards,
-- Al

Al, not knowing of Geoff other than in this thread, I gave it my best shot. 

Al did a superb job of summing up the issue in an earlier thread he previously mentioned.  Interesting that none of the commenters on 10K+ cables and expensive fuses has mentioned any experience listening to and comparing them...

@whart I find it amusing and ironic to bargain shop parts for a Lambo although I'm sure I would do the same thing. 

Interesting that none of the commenters on 10K+ cables and expensive fuses has mentioned any experience listening to and comparing them...

You must be in the wrong thread. I have seen many comparisons of fuses and cables in other threads. Search for them, there are plenty out there.

It would seem pointless to share any experiences in this thread.
No sense feeding the trolls.

yes, I meant this thread, and yes, pointless

dracule1...what is your system like..?.

asp- indeed.

If you are doing this you really need to get yourself into therapy

" no more lying awake nights over imperfections in your fuse holder"

I'm reminded of an incident in "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance" where on a road trip the author has manufactured from a beer can a solution to his friend's problem with the friend's expensive motorcycle needing a shim. The friend was appreciative but although the solution was dealt with long term he had to immediately have the shim replaced with a factory piece at high cost. His motorcycle deserved nothing less.

facten
542 posts
06-05-2016 11:28am
"If you are doing this you really need to get yourself into therapy"

Geoffkait: no more lying awake nights over imperfections in your fuse holder

I might need therapy but not for anything related to fuses or fuse holders as I don't use fuses or fuse holders. I don't bypass fuses. Heck, I don't even use the house AC. 

Tootles

I'm wondering, why all of the hoopla over expensive wire/fuses? Why don't we fuss over acoustic treatments more?

I'm wondering, why all of the hoopla over expensive wire/fuses? Why don't we fuss over acoustic treatments more?

Wires have been the low hanging fruit in this hobby for decades now for those that enjoy a good troll thread. Fuses are relatively new to the party.

It's all in good fun, some simply live to stir the hornets nest.
It's the only thing that gives their lives "purpose".

Welcome to the jungle!!

jmcgrogan2
5,311 posts
06-05-2016 2:52pm
I’m wondering, why all of the hoopla over expensive wire/fuses? Why don’t we fuss over acoustic treatments more?

"Wires have been the low hanging fruit in this hobby for decades now for those that enjoy a good troll thread. Fuses are relatively new to the party."

That’s true. The cable controversy has been around what, since around the late 70s? I’m thinking of the Fulton Gold and Polk Audio cables, even Monster Cable. OK let’s say 1980, that’s 36 years ago. Fuses on the other hand have only been controversial for what, fifteen years? Anyway, they've proven themselves to be excellent conversation starters over the years. Directionality of wire? I’m guessing 25 years.

GK

Dear Callaway, my current system includes Raidho D2 (waiting fir my D2.1 to arrive), completely rebuilt QUAD ESL 57, Ridge Street Audio Sason (out of business now), Silverline Minuet, slightly modded Bob Carver Cherry 180 (kickass 200 watt tube mono blocks with Vcap, Goldpoint input attenuator), Bedini 25/25 1Meg, Pioneer M20 (vintage class A 30 watt SS amp), Lampizator Golden Gate DAC, Audial Model S DAC with Double Crown TDA1541 chip, Tortuga Audio LDR preamp, and modded Acurus RL11 preamp (surprisingly good).  My music server is the dB Audio Labs Revolution server which is a completely reworked quad core Mac Mini with battery power supply, SD memory, gamer RAM, and rewritten Mac OS source code to improve audio quality. It includes dB Audio Labs' version of Audiovarna music software. All this for under $2k with money back guarantee.  Sad, hardly anyone knows about this gem of a music server. Instead all these PC based servers costing $5 to $20k get all the attention in the media. 

I built a dedicated windowless, audio only room measuring 17x22’ with 10’ ceiling with two dedicated AC lines and extensive acoustic absorption and diffusion treatments. My AC line is treated with Environmental Potentials filtering/protection system at the mains box of the house.

As for cabling, I use various manufacturers including some DIY, but none are overrated megabuck cabling. Like I said, the most expensive cables I have are my $2700 silver ribbon speaker cables by the now defunct Ridge Street Audio. They are very natural sounding cables with no silver brightness of most silver cables, but I still think they are too expensive. I can only justify its cost because of the amount of high quality silver (couple of pounds), hand manufacturing, and clever terminal-less spades which are contiguous extension of the ribbon wire. I’ve done many comparisons of mega expensive cables in the past and found them wanting. They may do audiophile things well like imaging and soundstaging, but faulter on natural timbre of acoustic instruments and vocals.

Faster61woman,  acoustic room treatment -- now that's a subject really worth deep discussion!  It perplexes me to no end when audiophiles spend $10k on speaker cables, and you find their system is in a room with no acoustic treatment other than their furniture. With only $2-3k in room treatment, you can greatly improve the sound of your system, sometimes more dramatically than buying new speakers.  Everything sounds so much better, including your $10k speaker wire 😏, when you have a properly treated room.

Couldn't agree more, Dracule.

Dracule1....very nice system...

Calloway, appreciate the compliment. At some point, I’ll have to put up some  photos of my system.

Dracule wrote,

" I know cables can make a difference in sound quality of your system, but never dramatic like changing speakers, amplifiers, or even more importantly room treatment. Yes, I’ve evaluated many vaunted cables at dealers and at home over the years, but never heard dramatic effect that I would plunk $5000 for a cable. The most I’ve ever spent was $2700 for pair of speaker cables, and I kinda regret it to this day. So when I see cable manufacturers charging 5 figures for their latest and "greatest" speaker cables, PC, and ICs, I have to ask myself who buys this stuff."

Well, it all depends on how you look at it. If you bought a pair of speaker cables for $2700 twenty years ago, then taking into account inflation those same cables would sell for what in today’s dollars, more than $6,000? You ask, who buys this stuff? Apparently it’s folks like you. ;-)

Nice try, geoffkait, I bought my $2700 cables 5 years ago. Adjusting for inflation, the price hasn’t changed much at all given the slow growth of our economy. And any cable with asking price $2700 is still too expensive today, IMO. 20 years ago, I was a poor kid in graduate school and couldn’t even afford a $50 cable, even though I was bitten by the audiophile fever.

But didn’t I admit I regretted the purchase to begin with? Why try to dig up crap where it doesn't exist?

I'd like to learn more about room treatments. Is there a commonsensical white paper or simple, rule of thumb article you recommend? 

Please don't steer me to threads that are a series of arguments. That kind of thing wears me out.

Thanks in advance,
gary

Over at the Planar Speaker Asylum forum there is a lot of discussion of room acoustics and treatment, understandable because of the nature of planar speaker's interactions with rooms.

faster61woman
3 posts
06-05-2016 8:04pm
I'm wondering, why all of the hoopla over expensive wire/fuses? Why don't we fuss over acoustic treatments more?

I'm far more in agreement with you on this than not, relative to some aspects. Room acoustics is a big factor and contributor to the overall sound of ones audio system, but I much prefer tweaking acoustics with "natural" environmental aids than those typically pre-manufactured that absorb sound more than they diffuse. Diffusion to my ears leaves a vital element of energy and "aliveness" intact, though a certain (preferably minimum) amount of absorption seems necessary. Taste is another factor, I guess; to me the threshold of the level of absorption hits earlier than others, but where the reverberative nature of the acoustics may still be too prevalent I seek to minimize via diffusion. It's a balance that takes some trial and error to attain, where my preference into acoustical behavior is tilted towards that which is slightly more alive/reverberative. The careful arrangement of plants, bookshelf, rugs (a big cow skin on a wooden floor in my case) and furniture can bring you a long way - indeed I prefer natural materials to achieve this. Added to this my speakers are all-horn equipped which makes them more directive in nature, and so downplays some much of the contribution of the room. 

Phusis, although you can try "natural" acoustic treatments as you describe it, they are nowhere nearly as effective as absorbers and diffusors that are made based on mathematic calculations from acoustic theory. For example, book selves filled with books do minimal or no diffusing. I was dissapointed when I found out.  Believe me, I've tried using plants, rugs, bookshelves, couches, etc. In a problematic room, these don't come anywhere close to real diffusors and absorbers. 

Uncledemp, all of my acoustic treatments come from GIK Acoustics.  Go to their website which has plenty of informative material on acoustic room treatments.

Thanks for the leads, guys. I'll read up- I have a lot to learn.

David12, I didn't start this thread to start a flame war.  Recently I looked into speaker purchase, and someone on another forum started a thread on cabling for the speaker I was interested in.  The cabling for the whole system costs over $100k.  Yes, that's not a typo.  For that kind of money you can build a kickass dedicated audio room or put a downpayment on a second home. Or feed a needy child for many years, if you're inclined to donate.  If one has that kind of money to throw around for cabling, I'm not here to stop him. I just think he needs a reality check. Everyone draws the line somewhere, but high end has become comically retarded.

$100k cabling for a 7 figure system and room might be a good fit if well matched. As to the societal ethics of seven figure systems...though many would say the same for $2700 cables and Raidho, Quad, Carver, Bedini in one home...

though I sure see many many more seven figure cars than music systems

Just a thought. How do cable manufacturers justify the price of their megabuck cables?  The material cost of nearly unobtanium radioisotope treatment of there cables? Their mega research facility cost? Labor cost? Cost of hiring a Haitian voodoo doctor? All of the above? Or just suckers who are willing to pay no matter how rediculous the price.

they don't have to justify and they probably sell very few $100k cabling systems

jl35, I'm repeating this for the 3rd time. I've already said $2700 was too much for speaker cables and regret the purchase.  Funny thing is no audiophile ever told me that was too expensive.  Sorry, I don't agree $100k cabling might be good fit for a 7 figure system, when I'm certain you can do just as well, if not better, with cabling costing a tiny fraction of that. 

A trolling we will go, a trolling we will go, high ho the dairy oh, a trolling we will go. One might as well wonder, hmmmm, how does Mercedes justify their prices? Or how does a pro basketball or baseball player justify his price? Or how does the military justify $339M for an F-22 Raptor?

ji35, by the same logic, if you bought a $100k ultradef 80" flat screen TV, it would be logical to spend $10k-20k on a coaxial video cable? Thank god videophiles are not suckers. 

 I have never compared cables on a $100k+ amp or $100k+ speakers...I have never heard a system that expensive...I sort of assume that for those who spend $!00k on cables, that that is relative pocket change to them...

I'm sure they get a good discount as part of a seven figure system and room rebuild

Yea, it may be pocket change to them, but it's still $100k.  You wonder why people like Paris Hilton get so much hate.  But you do have people like Bill Gates and warren Buffet who actually haven't gone off the deep end given their immense wealth.  May be I'm just old and cranky.  

Geoffkait, you’re not taking your Ritaline. Stay on track. Focus man. We’re talking cables here.
You can’t compare the technology and man power that go into 5th generation stealth fighter with technology of audio cables.

I read long ago that Gates had a Wilson Wamm system...bet he used some pretty good cables...sure has a nice house...I was outraged the first time I compared interconnects and liked the $150 Museatex more than the $15 Signet...

didn't mean to downplay the great charitable work of Gates...but good people have very expensive toys when they're super wealthy

Geoffkait if you think those things are similar your not as smart as I gave you credit for. 

And i I don't give you any credit, sorry....

jl35, I'm ok with Gates having Wamm system, along as he had the sense to kick the guy, who was trying to sell him $100k cables, out the door. 😏

I read Dave Wilson set it up in his home...ask Dave :)