Anybody use a single ended component with one that is balanced?
I currently have a single ended pass xa25 amp which is excellent but am looking to upgrade to an arc balanced pre. I was told arc works best balanced but I will have to use the rcas.
Anybody been in a situation like this? Will I really be compromising the sound of the arc using it in single ended mode? I know there are people who prefer single ended.
I'm using an Atma-sphere S-30 which is fully balanced with a single-ended Audio Note preamp. IMO, choice of interconnects will enhance the synergy. Very pleased with the sound.
This is about the noise floor. What you lose when you go from a fully balanced Preamp to a SE amp is common mode noise rejection. The signal is sent normally and inverted in a balanced unit. Any commonality between those two signals is rejected which is why balanced gear is so quiet. It is also why it is so expensive because the entire circuit is doubled.
With the ARC you are paying a lot for something you aren’t taking advantage of and it won’t be at its very best. It is up to you if it is worth the added cost.
The last couple of posts make good sense. The first one...not so much.
Balanced pre & amp will provide 6db additional gain and reject noise. It's a clear advantage.
Comparing balanced vs. SE pre to SE amp, both can sound good. It depends on the merits of those designs. If you ever move to a balanced amp, then you can take full advantage of balanced preamp's capabilities. There isn't a reason to reject a balanced pre now just because you are currently using a SE amp. Cheers,
...Balanced pre & amp will provide 6db additional gain and reject noise. It's a clear advantage...
Sometimes the added gain will show up as noise in your loudspeakers and you'll need to attenuate the gain. Balanced cables are most useful for long runs in noisy environments. There is nothing inferior about single ended connections.
Don't put single ended and balanced cables in the same system, unless they are not differentially balanced. All the benefits are lost if done like that.
I have mixed single ended and balanced components for decades running single ended regardless of the design. I always had one or two pieces of Audio Research.
Over the last couple of years I acquired all new Audio Research Reference components. Since ARC recommends balanced. One by one, I slowly swapped single ended for balanced interconnects of the same brand. I was not committed to critical listening to the differences… but I didn’t notice a difference. I am sure it is there hidden in the sound somewhere. But, I sure wouldn’t prevent me from mixing or upgrading to a piece that is not… from Audio Research.
Yes, balanced is a bit louder… one small turn of the volume control, no difference in character or ability to play more loudly.
I am sure different companies components might act differently… it is all in the implementation of what ever is converted.
I am sure different companies components might act differently… it is all in the implementation of what ever is converted.
Yep, as always seems to be the case regarding audio performance, implementation rules! Common mode noise rejection is an advantage for a balanced signal path. Yet a very strong case is made for the simplicity and fewer parts approach of well designed single ended components. Some are capable of exquisite sound quality.
In my opinion you have to judge on an individual component/ audio system basis.
If the balanced line standard is being observed, this should not happen!
Yes, balanced is a bit louder… one small turn of the volume control, no difference in character or ability to play more loudly.
If operating balanced and the volume winds up being higher, its a sign that the equipment does not support the balanced standard.
The reason this is so is because in a balanced system, the signal is generated without respect to ground; ground is just there for shielding and nothing else, quite unlike a single ended (RCA connection. But how many high end audio preamps do it is they have two single-ended outputs, one being out of phase with the other and both referencing ground to complete their independent circuits. So when you use a preamp like that single-ended and then go to balanced, you double the voltage being fed to the amp.
If OTOH the preamp is supporting the balanced standard, the output of the amplifier will not change because going from single-ended to balanced will result in exactly the same amount of voltage fed to the amp.
Two advantages of the balanced line system is freedom from ground loops since ground is ignored, and a lack of artifact (the ’sound’) of interconnect cables- they will be more neutral. Both of these aspects are lost if the preamp references ground to do its job.
If operating balanced and the volume winds up being higher, its a sign that the equipment does not support the balanced standard.
I’m not an electrical engineer but a lot of amps have the balanced outputs at plus 3db. Not sure why or how, perhaps to compensate for long cable runs that the balanced lines are designed for, but it’s a fact of life and sometimes needs to be addressed.
To the OP, I doubt you will compromise the sound using the single ended outputs (and it's not like you have much choice).
I use an EAR 868 preamp with my Pass XA25. The EAR preamp has balanced and single ended outputs and it sounds great using the single ended outputs.
Some amps and sources are designed specifically to sound better with balanced connections - eg Ayre and BAT come to mind - but it really depends on the specific amps and implementation. It also depends on whether your sources are balanced or single ended. My Nagra DAC and phono stage are single ended, so it doesn't make much sense to have the only balanced connection between preamp and power amp.
The XA25 is the best power amp I have owned, and should sound great with an ARC preamp. Use the single ended outputs and don't worry about it. Your ears will tell you whether it is sounding good, and I strongly suspect that they will tell you it sounds great.
I'm using a Zesto Leto preamp with a mix of RCA and XLR sources . They all sound great , I'm driving a pair of Quicksilver Mid Monos and my sub controller via its RCA outputs . The difference in volume is often perceived as sounding better but I think anyone would be hard pressed to tell the difference . The best thing about this pre is that any type of input will be output simultaneously from the dual RCA and XLR stereo outputs.... it can drive 4 amps, or a mix of amps and subs. Its killer.
In summary. Don’t worry about it. Go for the best components you can, and if you end up with a system in which all components support balances, then , if you have the money you can swap interconnects to balanced and see if you can hear a difference… maybe, maybe not,
Yes, I'm running a SE pre-amp (Manley Neo Classic 300b) with a fully balanced XLR amp (EC AW250R) and it sounds amazing. I had AudioArt cables build me a pair of XLR/RCA interconnects. Also, prior to purchasing I sent emails to both Manley and EC to ask if I should expect any issues. Got the green light from both...made the investment...and couldn't be happier with the outcome. Glad to share more info if interested...
I guess I wasn't clear....if you have differentially balanced components keep the XLR connection....gives greater dynamics, cleaner, clearer, immunity to cable sonic variability, etc....not only is it louder. If you're happy with your single ended sound continue....all will be fine.
In a way, a very pertinent question for me as I’m dealing with it now. Sort of in that I’m just looking for the right connection from my Rowland Model 12 monoblocks to my Townsend Allegri Preamp(which has both XLR and RCA). .
In addition to the Townshend Allegri I also just ordered a Townsend Audio full loom and in discussions with Max Townshend about IC connectors, he told me that RCA’s are better than XLR’s. Max went on to explain single ended connection is more pure and true to the signal as a balanced connections goes through extra circuitry and should be avoided if possible, except for long runs of cable.
I'm also changing the IC's from between my Classe processor and Allegri(for pass through) from balanced to RCA's.
As far as noise, I asked about that. Townshend’s interconnects at least use shielding so others likely do as well.
IMO I think it depends on where it falls in the chain. Single end into a pre amp and then balanced out of pre to balanced amp you are getting a full balanced signal in the end. That is the job of a well designed pre amp. Converting a single end signal to discrete fully balanced for output. Also remember that not all xlr are are fully balanced. I am looking to add a new dac and top two must haves are R2R and balanced. Its a matter of preference and my system can accommodate.
Almost all of the above are utter garbage. My company wired recording studios and we interfaced balanced and unbalanced gear all day long. Balanced lines are to increase noise immunity over long runs. Period. No Noise, No Need. There is no inherent sonic quality to balanced vs unbalanced. Improperly done balanced is vastly inferior to a properly done unbalanced.
It's important to know the circuit topologies and how the amps and other components are connected to earth safety.
Some outputs MUST use only one side to connect to unbalanced gear. Other are able to connect one or either phase to 0vA. [Not ground, as so many incorrectly refer to signal reference.] It's only ground if the signal reference is connected to the AC line Earth Safety.
Some people did think the balanced connection is better, which is not true. The most important things is the amplifier design. balanced or unbalanced is not the key matter,and we should not get the conclusion based on that.
If you are mixing single-ended and balanced inputs into an ARC pre-amp, forget using any adapters unless you have too many inputs of one type.
ARC, like Ayre, provides multiple (typically 3) input connectors of each type. Just use the assigned single-ended or balanced ports. They are included by ARC for a reason. With Ayre, the component circuits provide proper compensation for signal differences between the two. I would be 99% certain that ARC does something similar.
It is also noted that multiple prominent reviewers routinely mix SE and balanced feeds into these amps.
I’m not an electrical engineer but a lot of amps have the balanced outputs at plus 3db. Not sure why or how, perhaps to compensate for long cable runs that the balanced lines are designed for, but it’s a fact of life and sometimes needs to be addressed.
They do, probably because the amp is employing different circuitry for the balanced input. There should be no losses on any long balanced line cable you could run in a home environment. I've run them 300 feet with no losses when recording, and that's with a microphone signal.
In addition to the Townshend Allegri I also just ordered a Townsend Audio full loom and in discussions with Max Townshend about IC connectors, he told me that RCA’s are better than XLR’s. Max went on to explain single ended connection is more pure and true to the signal as a balanced connections goes through extra circuitry and should be avoided if possible, except for long runs of cable.
@vinylshadowThis statement is really problematic. So much depends on how the 'circuitry' mentioned is designed! If fully differential, even though there are about 50% more parts, its entirely possible that the signal is going through less stages of gain. For example the phono section in our preamps has only 2 stages of gain but works with LOMC cartridges- with passive EQ (which causes signal loss). Quite often a single-ended circuit will need 3 stages of gain to do the same thing.
The Ampex 351 tape electronics were used to record the lion's share of classical recordings here in the US during the golden age of stereo- 1958 to about 1962. The circuit is almost entirely single-ended except for the input and output transformers, without which the recordings would have been impossible due to the length of cables involved. What Mr. Townsend is essentially saying is that almost all recordings would be better if single-ended?? That clearly is false- it was balanced line connections that ushered in the age of hifi. The primary reason single-ended connections are used in home audio comes from the 1950s when the hifi industry was really getting started. The RCA connection was inexpensive and no-one at the time saw a need for longer cables (or even high quality cables for that matter) in the home. It was adapted purely out of cost.
But high end audio isn't about cost, its about building the best equipment one knows how to do, to get as close to the musical performance as humanly possible- its a very different goal. In that context balanced operation makes a lot of sense, and once you've heard balanced set up properly, there's no going back to single-ended.
There is a standard for balanced operation (linked earlier by @iealesin this thread) called AES48. Most of the balanced gear offered in high end audio does not support this standard. Its a real shame, because when the standard is supported you get benefits- no ground loops, good cable artifact immunity, lower distortion (due to cancellation) as well as less noise that can be impinged on the interconnect cables (and equipment). As a result, you get this on-going debate about which is better, which wouldn't happen if AES48 were supported. What I've not sorted out is why most of high end doesn't support the standard- whether they are ignorant of it or simply chose to ignore it. When its ignored, sometimes Mr. Townsend's comments you paraphrased are correct and sometimes not- hence the debate.
Depends the length of cable run to me balanced is always better quieter and more dynamic.If you use xlr to single ended adapters are always detrimental to sound quality.
Hello Roxy 1927. There are adapters that work perfectly well. I have a mix of pro audio gear and consumer audio equpt. and often need adapters for a particular job. The amp's apparant sensitiviy will be affected since it only gets a half strength signal from the preamp, but it's only a 3 db loss. I have tested blanced vs single ended several times and there is no quality difference when using good cables. You may pick up hum, police radio, and nearby AM radio stations; but that's part of the fun of the hobby! Keep Smiling!
i have the Pass XA25 too and use the balanced out connections from my Cary SLP 05 preamp. I used to have a balanced amp and wanted to re use the excellent van den hul XLR cables. At the amp I use a neutrik female XLR to male RCA cable adapter. it may be the Cary preamp circuitry but the sound is much better using the balanced outs vs RCA outs.
My Yggdrasil sounds far better using the balanced outs, but my DS2 prep and ML 27.5 only have SE inputs, so I have a balanced to RCA adapter coming from the Yggdrasil. You can get a straight adapter or one with the XLR on one end and an RCA on the other end.
I never heard much of a difference between se and balanced on Bryston and Anthen amps but I heard a huge difference on my Pass amp when I switched to balanced inputs so I’d say it depends on the design
I have run my Pass diy Amp Camp monoblocs in both, each time with a Pass diy preamp — the Zen Balanced Line Stage and the (SE) B1 Korg Nutube model. (The DAC is also balanced output.) The ZBLS has both outputs, but I think the Amp Camps definitely sound best in balanced. The B1 has only RCA, so no comparison, but what a sweet sound.
Oh OK. Yes, just use the RCA (aka "single-ended") connection from the pre-out to the amp in. Don’t use the XLR outputs on the preamp until you have an amp with XLR inputs. You won’t get optimal sound by just using the jack adapters - or at least that is a possible risk.
BTW: I like the XLR adapters because they always connect ground first, so they can be swapped live. I built a patch bay to switch between preamps and amps with neutrik jacks. Better than a HT bypass!
+1 Don’t add an adapter. If the amp is balanced it a;ready has one and is likely to be of higher quality. The manufacturer has a vested interest in making both inputs sound good.
Sounds NOTICEABLY better between my Cary preamp and Pass amp. I have compared the two options extensively and everything (sound stage, dynamics, transparency) sounds better.
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