In the end only you know what will make you happy. From your post you have all the information you really need.
Amplifier considerations, PrmaLuna EVO 400 versus ARC Reference 160 S. Is ARC worth it?
Greetings all. I own a pair of PrimaLuna EVO 400’s paired with an a first generation ARC Ref 6 and Ref 3 Phono. This was done because I could not afford a pair of 160 M’s and wanted something to tie me over until I could afford them or another option came along. I have been taking a hard look at the Reference 160 S, However, the performance of the EVO 400 is so damn good. I am not sure I would gain anything. In fact, I would lose a lot of customizability and am not a fan of how the ARC amps are built with mounting the sockets for those big ass kT-150 onto the circuit board.
Here is an overview of how I set up the EVO 400’s. They are set up as Mono-bocks. and retubed with KT-150s. The preamp section are retubed with BLACK SABLE JJ ECC82 / 12AU7. A less colored and cleaner sounding tube over the stock Chinese made one. With this configuration I get a sonic signature that has a bit of bite on the top and tight controlled bass that is snappy and authoritative. Specifications change from 140 watts to 192 watts. The music I listen to is a lot of Classical, Gothic Metal, Rock, Jazz, Blues, Pop, and EDM. A lot of my favorite recording are bass heavy with heavy dynamics. Speaker used are 4 Ohm - 95 db efficient - with a frequency response of 18HZ-30KHZ.
The 160s I am considering is $24K has power rating of 140 watts. It is a cleaner sounding amp that does not have much voicing. Offering a more accurate presentation, with more inner detail. That may prove to have better sysnergy with the ARC gear I already own. Also, the case work and overall appearance of the product is top notch. Hence the interest in it.,
Contrasted to PL what I lose is... some musicality, the EVO 400 has more richness in the mids and vocals are more pronounced and have a greater sense of presence within the listening room. Again, the tube sockets are bolted onto the chassis. They do not use a cooling assist fan. I have the advantage of a Monoblock solution, that is easier to handle weight wise and offers better isolation of the signal between the two channels.
Where the PL Cheaps out, is the finish and the balanced inputs. I am not a fan of the battleship grey paint and hodgepodge just slapped together Chi-Fi look that the components have. Nor do I like the cheap ass balanced connectors they use. There is a big difference in quality between them and the ones on my Ref 6.
Any thoughts or opinions are welcome.
Many thanks for your time and trouble.
39 responses Add your response
"just slapped together Chi-Fi look that the components have. Nor do I like the cheap ass balanced connectors they use. There is a big difference in quality between them and the ones on my Ref 6." "Chi-Fi look?" Sigh... You are comparing a value/performance brand that's been positively reviewed over the years with a brand that targets a specific market. Dopey post. |
@ tablejockey If the blunt expression of my feeling on the PL fit and finish offends, my apologies. It is a given the PL product is more budget conscience. Sadly, your post does not offer much that is of use or has much thought behind it. Setting the PL build compromises and looks aside. It is still every bit a premium product performance wise. I think asking about a 24K upgrade is still worth exploring, to blindly waste money on something because it is considered more upscale? I consider dopey, especially if you already have the pleasant surprise of owning a product that gives the same level of performance for little over half the asking price. Spending more does not mean you get more. So, I see this as a fair question to ask. |
The only way you can tell is to take each home, at the same time and do an A/B comparison in your home with your system. component and music memory is extremely faulty. I know there are some dealers that will either let you take a unit home for an in-home demo or take your credit card information so that you can take it home. Also, make sure you are listening at the same DB levels. Many people even audiophiles mistake volume differences with better or worse. So, for example if I want to think about upgrading an amp or pre-amp, I will "borrow" a new (new or used) device under consideration. Take it home. Listen to my music at the level I like with my original piece. Digital works best for this example. Then, I insert a test CD and play a test tone and measure the sound level with a sound level meter. There are some inexpensive ones out there and also some apps you can download. I then remove the original piece, insert the new device, changing absolutely nothing else. nothing. Play the test tone again and adjust the listening level to match the original. Then listen. Now what differences do you hear? That's the ticket. Most times with high end equipment, it is not jaw dropping differences, but the question is, are the differences enough to "justify" an upgrade? That is the fun part. enjoy |
I am a big fan of Audio Research. I have an all ARC Reference system and have had 160 monoblocks for well over a year and a 160s for three. There is a lot of synergy with all ARC. You seem to be familiar with the the sonic characteristics. Personally I would not put the PL amp and ARC in the same class. The ARC is far more refined and tuned to reproduce natural music, in all aspects. You have to choose if that is what you want, well, that you value.
The ARC gear presents music with stunning fidelity to the real experience (not exaggerated charactertures), conveying the full rhythm and pace. My speakers are 90db efficient and I operate my ARC amps in triode mode (so, 70wpc)… they will play louder without distortion than I would have thought possible (or desirable in my large room), in the mid 90db range. Typically I listen in the 70db range as it gives me all I need. Occasionally I will listen in the 80’s. The difference between the mono blocks and stereo version is interesting, and a bit subtle in audition… but very noticeable in ownership. The monos have a wider and deeper sound stage with images set in a larger sound stage… but the individual instruments have a bit less power and immediacy. So, it sounds like, since you like some metal, pop and rock. The stereo version sounds more up your alley… as it will sound like it has more power. I used to own massive solid state amps. The quest for massive power was always on my mind. But when I switched from solid state to tube amps, that quest for power went away. They have very different strengths and weaknesses. SS tend to sound much better with more power, tubed are far less effected. I mention this as something to think about. I don’t know what it means.
Anyway, after a number of years and thousands of hours with my ARC REF 160 amps… I appreciate them more each day, and particularly paired with the other equipment. You can see my system under my UserID. |
"If the blunt expression of my feeling on the PL fit and finish offends, my apologies." walkertm- No harm, no foul. Same goes for my response as well. Long time PL user and longer time fan of iconic US gear. No doubt the ARC upgrade will be just that. For that amount of dough, it better be. "Nor do I like the cheap ass balanced connectors they use. There is a big difference in quality between them and the ones on my Ref 6." I would hope so, for the cost! The PL is spec'd for its price point. Actual build is on par with ARC or similar. Make me wonder with right cap/resistor upgrades and tubes what the possibilities are?
|
@ Mazian I own a pair of Legacy Audio Focus SE | Legacy Audio They are a large tower that need a larger room and careful placement. Although they are easy to drive. Amplification is an equal consideration with them. I found out the hard way. Place these to close to a wall or use an amp that overdrives them and the bass response becomes exceedingly boomy. They like the PL, Zesto, and Anthem tube amps. I p[layed around with. In SS they mated well with Classe products. They did not get on well with the BAT VK-500 or later the VK-255 Monoblock’s I had also did not work well. |
Ayon is built night and day better, thick machined aluminum ,not sheet metal all far better Gold Copper sockets ,Mundorf capacitors , land microprocessor controlled for each tube ,, the others just average all tubes not accurate at all ,when you gets bad tube a led goes on ,you just replace that 1 tube hit a button and recalibrated the amp. And made in Europe not China like prima luna , and AR went bankrupt , when will they be back up and running ? |
Two things: "not a fan of how the ARC amps are built with mounting the sockets for those big ass kT-150 onto the circuit board." This depends on the board's construction. The ARC board is thick and ridged. It feels industrial. ARC's weak link has never been their tube sockets. I've never owned a PL so I don't have personal experience with their boards but I'm told they are thinner than the ARC's boards. and; "The 160s I am considering is $24K has power rating of 140 watts. It is a cleaner sounding amp that does not have much voicing. Offering a more accurate presentation, with more inner detail. That may prove to have better synergy with the ARC gear I already own. Also, the case work and overall appearance of the product is top notch" I think you've answered your own question :) If customizing the PL is fun for you by all means tinker away- I find great satisfaction tinkering at my bench- but my ARC gear is my anchor. Have you considered waiting for the 320M? That may be your all-in-all. (If you have a fat wallet) ARC (for all it's foibles since WZ died) has IMO always been designed to work best with it's own components. ARC is a neutral palate. Many don't like that- they shop for voicing. So: Listen in your own room and choose based on that. In the end how it sounds is priority #1. |
There is another factor here you should consider - Pride of Ownership. If you lust for the ARC amps and you will always be a little sad and dissatisfied that you don't own them then go ahead and spend the damn money. There's a good chance that you will keep them for the long term and every time you fire up your system you will look at them and smile. BTW, they will sound glorious. |
People like what they like and I am loathe to question anyone else's judgment or tastes. So against my better judgment here goes: until recently I owned a set of prima Luna prologue 6 monoblocks. I now own a Conrad Johnson premier 11a and a set of quicksilver mid mono. I also have a rogue audio metis Magnum pre amongst others. All are tube based and have blown a tube at one time or another. The prima Luna were clear and detailed but not very tube like at least not in the sense that I prefer. The CJ and the rogue audio as well as the Quicksilver especially are more to my taste. I have always wanted an arc amp but have read way too many posts where owners have had to send these amps back in for service because a tube blew and took out a resistor or other parts. If you own tube gear you know that it's just a matter of time before one blows..it is the nature of the beast. When I lost a tube on both the rogue audio and the primaluna the speakers let out an ungodly howl that caused me to sprint across the room while peeing myself just a little. I felt sick until I simply replaced the tubes and none of my gear was worse for wear. If I had owned Arc gear at the time I would have had to ship the amp back at Great expense and then wait months for the return after service, also at great expense. I always thought of Arc gear as I do Ferrari. Stunning to look at definitely some cachet to owning one and when properly tuned absolutely thrilling to drive. The flip side is that 36,000 miles on a Ferrari is considered high mileage and an engine rebuild is eminent. This is why I own the gear that I do.. and drive a Porsche. |
Sound wise this is strictly a personal choice, take your pick. I like to fiddle with tone and tube changes so of these two I'd probably go for the PL's. When I last bought ARC amps the one question I did not ask was "what happens when you blow out a tube and cause a resistor to burn out." Can I repair it, can a local tech repair it, does it have to go back to ARC, and can I lift it and haul it around. Who will bias your tubes, etc. FWIW. |
There is another thread here somewhere in which I contributed on the issue of getting tubed gear repaired. The truth (a loaded word as the "truth" is often subjective and anecdotal and in this context regional too) is that most major metropolitan areas have musician-based amp repair shops. My city of Columbus OH does. It is amazing but true that a good guitar amp repair tech can make easy work of repairing an ARC amp if a schematic is provided. ARC will provide the schematic-don't let anyone tell you otherwise, particularly if you are the original owner. Guess what? Tube amps are far more easy to repair than solid state amps. Truth. Generally speaking. The vast majority of tube amps are built using fairly simple circuit designs. Someone up above said of Ayon;
I have no idea what a "land microprocessor" is, Mr. Google suggests it is a Land Grid Array unless this guy means a relay manufactured by Land Instruments but either way, this is the kind of thing that a tech can not fix. Only replace. Speaking of pride of ownership, my AmpsandSound Nautilus amp is not only built like a tank but it is built using a 60 year old circuit design with turrets. Talk about simple to repair! |
Re: Primaluna Monobloc. I have an EVO 400 power amp which I have been running for about 6 months now and am considering adding another to monobloc. (The preamp is also an EVO400.) My question is, did you listen to your system for any length of time in stereo mode? If so, what was the difference between the two modes? |
fsonicsmith1 That's a great point and one I hadn't considered. I wrongly assumed that an arc owner would most often send it back to the manufacturer. I was not aware that they were open to sharing the schematics, many manufacturers will not. Pennfootball71 I am surprised to hear you say that PL was the worst you have ever heard. I understand that these amplifiers can be polarizing and that they are made in China. Sound wise I found them to be very detailed, able to handle every single speaker I threw at them, surprisingly powerful in that they punched way above their weight, all while being dead quiet. |
Bald white xenophobe. Typing his response on a junk china made phone or laptop as he listens to speed-metal on a system made of 60 to 80% Asian sourced component’s. Football is quite the opinionated chap.
|
@ football I have owned VTL and Zesto amps in the past. Both are premium brands based in California and built in the US. Neither are with me today because as good as they sounded. They could not hold up to the demands I placed on them. Which is about 6 - 8 hours of use per day. I have had the PrimaLuna amps for 3 years now. They sound just as good as the VTL ever did and once retubed nearly as good sounding as the Class A Zesto Eros 300. Which to my ear was the best sounding amp I ever owned, regardless I traded them. Unlike the Zesto the Prima Luna's not being a class A design does not get nearly as hot, nor have I ever had to send them into for repair once. I cannot say that about the MB-450's (Biggest mistake made reliability wise.) or Eros 300's. From my experience of actually owning PrimaLuna products, being American made does not mean squat as far as being able to run trouble free. If one does not care for how they sound, I cannot fault that. Not everything made can suit everyone's taste. I would advise anyone interested in owning a EVO 400 be sure to give it a listen first. |
walkertm I'm very new to this forum and really don't post anything, mainly read and learn. But after reading your post I felt that maybe I should share my experience as it's a bit similar to your dilemma. I have been into 2 channel music for over 20 years, starting out with a pair of Polk Audio RT55I's and a Pioneer elite A/V receiver in 1999. Moving up the chain over the year's, my most recent amp was an Octave V70 class A Integrated matched with a pair of Sonus Faber Amati's. I've been extremely satisfied the past 2 years, and with a bit of tube rolling thought my system sounded perfect. Now, I have always had an itch for monoblocks...but always said to myself "really, how much better can it get". Finally the itch won and I had to scratch it, by purchasing a pair of ARC 160m's and the 6se preamp. Honestly, I was nervous as heck as I waited for them to arrive, knowing there's no turning back (as I bought them on the used market). I really loved the sweet sound of the Octave Class A, and was scared of losing it for just more powerful amps. I had no way of auditioning the ARC products so was going in blind, other than reading and researching as much as possible. To wrap this up, I received the 160m's and preamp, after spending the day running dedicated 20 amp outlets to each one, all I can say is WOW!!! They sounded so beautiful. I know the ARC gear is in a different league than my mid-level Octave, but I didn't expect such a jump in what I was hearing. So, no regrets here and my personal opinion, I'd go with ARC, I don't think you'll regret it either. |
My Primaluna EVO Power amp has benefited greatly from using Sophia Electric blue "coke bottle" EL34 ST A-matched tubes in the power tube positions. Strangely, Sophia's 12AU7 tubes are not compatible with PL amps - a fact they mention on their site.. For that matter, most of my vintage 12AU7 tubes do not play well with PL amps or preamps in the driver tube positions. However, PL's branded 12AU7 tube sound pretty good. The 12AU7 gain tubes on both the pre and power PL amps can be rolled. On the power amp gain tube positions I am using vintage Amperex 12au7 Bugle Boys to great effect. I am also using Mullard metal base GZ34's in the rectifier tube positions on the EVO 400 pre. These vintage tubes are, of course, pricey but worth it. |
@ bolong: Sorry I missed your question. I started with one EVO 400. I used at first the stock tubes and ran the unit in stereo. It was really impressive, especially in the mids and lower highs. Vocal were lush, full, and natural. Nonetheless, the bass slam was not there. I then moved to KT-88, I liked the sound of that too, the bass became tighter and faster. However, the top end did not have the bite I liked. I then moved onto the KT-150 which suited my tastes the best, Tight, fast, clean, with a top and bottom end that had authority, However, I could tell that the grip on the bass response was not as iron clad as it could be. I then saved up and purchased a second EVO 400 and retubed it with another set of KT-150s. That is when the late night to early morning listening sessions started. The change is subtle, but what you get when you run them in mono is better damping and current delivery, On the lowend the PL will make my Legacy Focus SE beg for mercy, These are a boomy speaker and you need an amp that is merciless in its abiltity to control those dual 12-inch woofers, Mids? I did not hear much of change. They are already outstanding in the stock stereo configuration, In upper mids and treble, I hear more sparkle and bite. Overall, running them in mono versus stereo, the EVO 400 become a more accurate versus a syrupy sounding amp. To my ear, the mono configuration brings out what is on the recording to a sharper focus. Has more detail, better delineation of the instruments, and the transients start and stop on a dime. The drawback for me is the top end gained more bite. That is due more to the KT-150 than running them in Mono. If i stuck with an EL34 from Gold Lion or Mullard that may not be the case. Nonetheless, if you have a good local dealer. I suggest you ask if you can audition a second one at you home and see what you think. Given my tastes, I like the sound of the EVO in mono better than stereo. My speakers love the additional current delivery. That may not be the case for you, and I would hate for you to spend another $5300 on something that you feel did not do much to improve things, Wish you the best. |
@ vinylvalet: Owned a pair of Eros 300's the Bia would be going backward. I love the sound of Zesto gear. The 300's were the best sounding amp I ever owned. However, being a full-on Class A design, they run too hot to work in the space I have for them. Perhaps one day if I move to a house that has a larger room where I can let them breathe. The PL also run hot but being push-pull, they do not get nearly as warm as the Zesto. |
@walkertm I agree. I didn't realize you had the Eros 300s. |
May I suggest you instead try some light mods to the PL amps. what I'm talking about is replacing those cheep balanced connections you mentioned as a start. you can also change the sound by trying different brands of caps and in some cases change the sound significantly. There are other upgrades that could be done as well rather easily and totally reversible. for the cost of a few hundred bucks you could change the PL's sound to something different or better for your system synergy. I've recapped many pieces now with excellent results also I've upgraded components on various items many times with excellent results. Do not feel the need to keep it original all manufacturers build to a price point there is no reason you cannot upgrade those parts to better ones. everything can be reversed as well so don't be stuck in the "got to keep it original" ideology as that's a moot issue in audio as it not going to reduce the resale ( unless you hack it to pieces) and actually may increase it. |
I’m running Primaluna Mono’s driving Martin Logan Summit X’s. Not the easiest load. The mono’s effortlessly drive the Summit’s to sublime levels. I’m kind to my ears, and primarily listen to jazz, classical, and 60’s - 70’s soul. My system has never sounded better. Those that disparage PL with racist adjectives have never heard them. And that’s unfortunate, for them. |
The Absolute Sound Review of the PL EVO400 Preamp "Probably the most significant (and obvious) new feature is balanced connectivity, implemented using mu-metal-shielded quadfilar line transformers to provide two stereo XLR inputs and one output." |
