Amp Stands - Wood or Stone

@cleeds

kidbuck

I bet you $1000. US that you would fail a blind test listening ...

You sound like quite the hustler. You’re not fooling anybody. We don’t do gambling here.

DON’T DO GAMBLING OF SUCH KIND YOU WILL DEFINITELY LOOSE AS ANYONE ELSE HERE ON BLIND TESTS AND NOT ONLY FOR AMP STANDS!

LOL

We should try and tone this down at this point.

Anyone want to talk about whether cables make a difference in sound quality?

Thin skins are not recommended attire for any internet forum.

Depends on your music choices?

Rock: Stone

Acoustical Instruments: Wood

@bolong It might be "helpful and civil" of you to NOT prowl around through the threads and let me be.

I haven't addressed you or even posted on this thread in nearly TWO WEEKS. And, until now, have been left alone and for that WE is grateful.

I don't even know exactly what you are referring to other than I simply don't care what you/"we" think about me or my opinions so let's just let it go. Can you do that? You probably can't or won't but I hope you will. 

I don't know who you mean by "We" but, evidently, I have committed some kind of wrongdoing of disagreeing with the topic here and ruffled some feathers with you/"we" experienced regulars creating some inaccurate accusations of myself that keeps me the heck OFF here and out of "we's" way.

Pease be "civil" and leave me OUT of your little "We" club, of which I'm glad I'm not a part of, and leave me alone.👍🏼💯😶

Please. 

@kidbuck 

It might be helpful to prowl around through threads on this forum to get a feel for the general but unspoken agreement on civility or the lack thereof. There have been plenty of spats on this forum for which we are grateful because they indicate a healthy enthusiasm for the truth even if some truths may be beyond solution.

A Board Material that can be used to a good effect and one that does not need to have any expense attached to acquiring it for being used as a trial is Chipboard.

Chipboard is produced in different compressions for the particulate.

A Sub Plinth produced from a not too compressed Board will be one to show a difference that is perceivable as an improvement.

For myself it has been very effective as a Tier used under a Speaker, but this will also be useful under other devices.

If an individual wants to pretty up the raw material, then this will add a cost.

I also wondered if wood would improve my stereo, so, I created Maples wood blocks and used them with different types of cones. I have a few extra, I could list them on Agon if interested.

@jab , so did it improve your stereo?  

I have wood under my tube amps and it's on top of mh cd player.Its 2x2 cut the width of the cd player.Works find and I feel it let more air flow around the tube amp.

You have to admit - we are having fun here.

There is a experience easily able to be attained and for some, might have a pleasurable side. When trying support methods for Amp's both utilising Valves or not. As well as, when trying out other Audio Devices both utilising Valves or not.
Any changes that are wanted to be made to the support method for mounting  these device types. Can be relatively quick and easy to put in place, especially if the Cables attached are not restrictive to the moving of the devices, to an alternate support structure.

When I was intent on moving from the use of OFC Wire Type as the Signal Path Wire in a Cable. Where I was to adopt OCC Copper Wire for the Signal Path. I ended up having a few cables readily available as umbilical RCA Cables of a 5mtr length. Extended in length Power Cords were also on standby to be used at times to enable the ease of placing certain devices on different structures. 
As the learning about how a structure was able to impact on an end sound was of importance to me at this time. It was also useful to have in place a method to enable the speedy assessment of changes being made to a support structure. 

As a result of the creation of different structures to support Audio Devices and the impressions made of the experiences had. I today use Wall Mounted Shelves with Isolated Framing from the Wall and Isolated Platforms from the Framing for the CDT and Valve DAC.

With the present knowledge in use, when The TT is set up. It is seated on a Three Tier Structure, which is inclusive of a Sub/Sub-Sub/Sub-Sub-Sub  Plinth Design.
This Three Tier Sub Plinth Assembly is seated upon a Rack that is mounted on a 1/2" thickness Steel Sub Plinth.
The Steel Sub Plinth is mounted on Tiered Materials to produce the separation between floor and Steel Plate.

The Phonostages in use, especially the Valve Input /Output, are able to have their end sound loosened or tightened up depending on the Sub Plinth Material Type and configurations for the materials that are used in the assembly.
I have no concerns for loosening off the Bass a little when Blues Music is being replayed and tidying the Bass Up with some of the other genre of music used as replays.

The easiest way for myself to loosen of the Bass and add Colour is to swap out the ESL Speakers for a Cabinet Speaker Design. Depending on the configuration of the support for the Speakers the level of colouration detected can be quite broad, where the extent of distortion being heard can be very unattractive.

In relation to the systems Audio Devices bar the TT.
On many occasions, I have discovered, as well as demonstrated to others, how the method for the mounting Audio Devices being used, has shown significant improvements that are even notable when the end sound is being assessed.
Especially when methods used are an improvement as an alternative to the more commonly used method, where the device is seated on a typical support structure using the devices footers only as the contact with the support and the support structure is in direct contact with the floor.  

I will state with confidence, the use of Tiers of a Panzerholz Board, using AT 616 Footers as the separators for the Sub Plinths and Valve Power Amplifier. Creates a result in all environments this has been tried. Where the Power Amplifier is noticed to be improved. It is notable in some of the experiences had, how much the end sound is improved in the area of tidying up the Bass Notes. Using listeners in attendance assessments, from some of the contributors, it was suggested it was like a New Amp had been introduced. I stand in defence of such suggestions, there is without doubt change detected to the end sound that is a betterment.

I firmly believe there is not a ubiquitous solution, each environment will be dealt with for its own unique distribution of intrinsic energies being encountered.  

In relation to my own 845 Monoblock Power Amps, these Amp's are mounted on a not too commonly seen Sub Plinth Assembly. 
The Base Material is a Multi-Tier of an anti-vibration material which is used in Laboratories. The material is used prior to laying a Concrete Screed Flooring. The intention for the under Screed material, is to produce a sub-base in the Laboratory that  is much improved for reducing vibration, that can be transferred to sensitive Laboratory Equipment. 
Seated on the anti vibration material, is a Slab of Granite approx' 6' x 16"s x 8"s at a weight of approx' 800lb.
Seated on the Granite is Two Types of Foam one medium dense and the other substantially compressed. The 845 Amps are then mounted on the compressed foam, with Cork as the Amps Footers. The use of the AT 616 in place of the much much cheaper Cork Footers makes little, if any difference to the end sound, the Structure under the Amp's Footers is doing the hard work.
The positive in this structures performance is that the expensive AT 616 are freed up to be employed for other tasks where they benefit as being the Footer Type in conjunction with the support being used. 

I can put the 845's on the Carpet, or on a variety of differing materials as the support, but quite quickly the Amp's are wanted to be placed back on the bespoke support assembly.

I could have spent multiple Hundreds or even much much more to create the impression being made at present from this design for a support. 
I could have also saved my poor old back some considerable grief .
To achieve what is in use as a bespoke support for all the audio equipment, has not set me back too much monies for any of the materials or the configurations for the materials used. 
I am still remaining much better off financially than if I adopted the option for buying off the shelf Branded Designs to be used as a Support Structure. A search can easily put $10K as the required budget. 
Additionally, I am not aware if a more expensive option is able to produce an end sound that is a betterment. I do agree there is the convenience of Buying into a particular product type.  

Granite is very easy to discover cheap, getting the dimension required will add to the cost if an individual is not willing to do a cut to the Granite themselves to produce the dimension that is preferred. The large piece of referred to Granite was an Engineers Flat Surface Plate, bought local for less than £100.

The Highly compressed foam, was a chance discovery as a Board Material, it was sent for Damping /Dissipation Testing and measures improved over many board types. I collected this as a Off Cuts as a waste material, which enabled odeal board sizes to be cut.    

The material Panzerholz is one of the best measured materials for Damping /Dissipation for Audio Purposes, as stated, the material is slowly infiltrating being used into Branded Products.

Take the Brand Taiko and their Panzerholz Sub Plinths.
I got 10 x P'holz Boards to be used as a TT Plinth and Sub Plinths in similar dimensions to the Taiko Boards, for the same monies as the cost of one Taiko Board.
I have also gifted Plinth size Boards produced from P'holz to a few friends, who have produced their own TT Plinths from it.

There is one thing that can be taken from this, careful selection of Support Structure Methods and the selection for the Materials to be used, as well as the configuration for the materials. With certain Audio Equipment, when being used in certain environments. Will have a substantial impact on how the audio device is perceived for the end sound it produces.       
 

Yes, my components are all sitting on granite below which are the wood shelves of the Salamander rack.

@bolong 

@ghdprentice 

Along the lines you guys were going, I treat my components like I have previous rooms where a heavy mass is isolated from the room (double drywall hung on hat channel for instance).

I cannot say the sound is better, but I want to take every advantage so I use 3 inch maple slabs set on the Adonna rack rubber bumpers and then the component sets on isolation devices like Nordost Sort Kones. I'm theoretically isolating the component from the heavy mass of the slab. The slab, as wood, has a very low Fn as opposed to a slab of granite which has a higher Fn. 

Perhaps a higher Fn is beneficial in some instances, but I would rather have a lower resonance as the slab.

Fn - natural frequency

Again, I'm not sure it "sounds" better, but knowing how electronics can be susceptible to vibrations (many years doing electronics packaging and vibration testing) I give it a go this way.

Happy listening! 

If Building a Rack that does not require too much height is also of interest and the Threaded Rod Support Method is a method that is acceptable.

The Link will show a alternative material well worth considering and one that would be a very good interface with a " Phenolic Resin Impregnated Densified Wood Board ". 

https://www.roechling.com/industrial/products/composites/laminated-densified-wood/fasteners

In my personal experience nothing substitutes for mass. Most of my components have around 40lbs of lead on each (except the speakers.) These bricks sit toward the side edges of the components to reduce any potential stress on the internals and to center the mass over the support feet that come with the component. All of the support feet are manufacturer rubberized to some extent on the bottom contact surface, so this is at its most basic a combination of rubberized damping and mass loading. As mentioned in the earlier post, the Audion monoblocs are too small for the the full 40 lb treatment, but the single 20lb lead brick spanning them is more than sufficient. Everything else - the Jay's CDT3 Mk3, the Holo May KTE, and the Holo Serene KTE get the 40lb treatment.

Due to lateral space constraints in my living/listening room it was necessary to "go vertical" with a cherry Salamander rack. The original black steel structural rods were replaced with solid brass all-thread and brass nuts which stiffened up the rack substantially and eliminated loosening over time.

Since I listen mostly late at night, I call this my "Silent Night" system.

The clue for finding a wider range of Board Material produced very similar to P'holz and Permali is searching for the following:

" Phenolic Resin Impregnated Densified Wood Board "

Some Companies using these Board Types give the materials an in house name, hence, Kaiser Speakers calling P'holz 'Tankwood'. 

As a guide to purchasing these Board Materials, the Board must be a Heat Treated Vacuum Compressed Board, which has a weight of approx' 1400Kg/m3.

There are PhenolIc Resin bonded boards that are not produced the same, the Boards can be produced as a non heated treated Vacuum Compressed and seen with a weight range from 800Kg/m3 - 1400Kg/m3.

When selecting a Board Type that is approx' 1400Kg/m3, there are a few other considerations.

The individual who originally tested and made public their measurements, which is where the interest started in using this material for Audio Purposes. When describing their test results and the attraction of the material, made it known that a 10mm thick board has all the intrinsic properties required to suit Audio purposes.

The Boards Tested have evolved in their construction and thicknesses and in general, it is accepted that a Board constructed with Cross Grain Plies, a 1mm Ply compressed to 0.5mm, where the commonly selected Board thickness seen selected today is 25mm ( 1"). A Board will typically be Cross Grain Plies using 50 Layers @ 1mm compressed by 50%.    

I forgot to credit @pindac w suggestion of tankwood…. very nice stuff…makes a wonderful armboard also….

Some of us have our favorite brands, for me it’s HRS and Core Audio designs, both deeply rooted in both physics and sharp listening skills. Some of us also have a DIY bent. to the OP you would be wise in your adopted approach to adopt the constrained layer approach suggest by @bdp24 and possibly incorporate a top plate of Panzerholtz. Wishing you all the best on your project….in music

Jim

Whatever you make your stands from, put your components on Symposium Ultra platforms. The disc couplers transmit any vibration from your equipment or the room and converts it to a tiny amount of heat. I have these things under my components and the difference was remarkable - especially with my tube amp and preamp. Cleaned everything up.

If cost isn't an issue, get the Symposium Osirus rack.

Symposium Acoustics: Products (symposiumusa.com)

@noromance Yet there are limits, whether one likes it or not. Challenge those limits at your own risk. As far as humans are concerned we are way more alike than different. We have yet to see a human with three ears and hearing much beyond 20 kHz is impossible for use, but not for some other critters. Humans can not see with their ears, but bats and whales can. 

@dmk_calgary What you are trying to do is make a constrained layer construction to minimize resonance. It might work great for a turntable plinth put it will do bupkis for anything else.

Many of you have subwoofers with amplifiers installed within. Sealed subwoofers have extreme increases in internal pressure with loud bass below 100 Hz, yet the amps seem to do just fine. An amp out in the room is subject to a lot less. 

+1 @bdp24 - I use a sandwich of granite from my local kitchen counter shop + leftover 3/4" oak + the acoustic wall damp material. I think technically you are supposed to use 2 different materials separated by the acoustic damping material - there is a technical name for it which I forget right now. Am supporting tube amp, preamp and TT with 1 stand under each for a total of 3 stands. Easy to make. No noise when I rap with my knuckles. The TT plinth does resonate when I rap with my knuckles, but unsure what to do about that. TT is a stock VPI prime - 10 years old this Dec.

YMMV of course

+1 bdp24 - I used granite from my local kitchen counter place + leftover 3/4" oak + a sandwich of acoustic wall damp in between the two. For me, it tightened up the bass + it does work when I rap on it with my knuckles - ie no noise thru speakers. I am supporting tube amp and pre-amp and turntable with this. The weak spot is the TT plinth which does resonate when I rap the plinth with my knuckles. 

YMMV of course.

@mijostyn

Every man takes the limits of his own field of vision for the limits of the world.
- Schopenhauer

Many people, good listeners with excellent systems, are subject to that phenomenon. What you see and how you interpret it affects your interpretation of what you are hearing. We are all subject to this at some level.

I like a thick solid piece of oak with recessed casters mounted on the bottom and you can move them around and they look fabulous.

Thank you, @mijostyn❕️

Ok, I will. I appreciate that.

Much love! 

@noromance Many people, good listeners with excellent systems, are subject to that phenomenon. What you see and how you interpret it affects your interpretation of what you are hearing. We are all subject to this at some level. @kidbuck is right. In a formal AB comparison none of us would be able to reliably identify the subjects. The best way to evaluate a system's imaging capability is by relaxing in the listening position and closing one's eyes.

Kidbuck, I can't count the number of people I have pissed off and, "I Don't Care." I want to see everyone have a great system. Good equipment is not cheap and wasting money on things that in no way improve sound or function prevents one from getting that better amp or cartridge, things that do make a difference. You can't place an amp directly on carpet, so an amp platform does improve function, but implying that an amp platform improves sound quality means the individual has no understanding of psychoacoustics. Some audiophiles are bullying and rude. Keep doing your thing anyway. 

@ozzy62 I was never "Combative". 

Your statement is unfair, and false. 

What happened is I was instantly belittled for my viewpoint including the fact it was my first post. Y'all are being bullying and rude so I said I don't care about your personal attacks. Those remarks are the ones that should be removed. I'm sorry I'm new and i disagree. Sheesh. 

I didn't go on a "temper tantrum rant" of which I was falsely accused of or try to "hustle" anyone because my use of the word "bet" was OBVIOUSLY not in a literal sense because I was asked for specifics on my use of the word "guarantee" that I clearly used figuratively. So I changed the word to bet and it was taken from there with the berating and untrue assessments because I don't agree and that I'm new.

I'm not combative so let's just be fair because that's ridiculous. Defensive, yes, but only because of how y'all came down on me. And you continue to do it. Its not nice to belittlepeoplebecausetheyvare new and don't agree. 

Yeah, I'm new and not in your circle so I'm being taking advantage of and it's not good. 

@kidbuck 

Your combative stance and attitude is likely what got your post removed. If I went on ASR and challenged the nerd types that all amps sound different, I would probably have the same reception. 
 

You aren’t the only one around here with your viewpoint. But others are smart enough to temper it. If not, their posts meet the same fate.

Maybe it's just my ridiculously sensitive hearing and hyperactive neurons, or maybe it's all the tubes in my phono amps, preamp and power amps, but I can hear differences in the sound of different supports beneath the amplifiers. Quasi-authoritative proclamations that this is impossible indicate that your situation may differ entirely. 

My Audions sit on marble which sits on cherry wood shelves. Two sticks of wenge wood span the Audions front and back leaving a couple of inches between them. On this "bridge" sits a 15lb lead block.

I have never heard any amp sound different no matter what it was sitting on. 

Some people may have a more acute ability to hear than others.  I don't, but I do not discount those that say that they do.  

@mijostyn I'm surprised the "moderators" and people on here who swear by the materials used for amp stands are tolerating your opposing opinion.

I agree with you. I posted on this thread that I bet a person would fail a blind a/b test and was essentially attacked for having such an opinion. 

They scolded me, called me a "hustler", and removed my comments. Why?

For being a newbie and disagreeing with their claims. 

@testrun The only reason you need amp stands is to get the amps up off the carpet so that they ventilate correctly. I made a set just recently and used 8/4 walnut on spikes. You have to finish the wood which is more expensive than the wood. Stone is more difficult to mount spikes on, but does not need a finish. 

As far as sound quality goes it makes absolutely no difference. If it looks better to you it will sound better. So, by all means, pick what looks good to you. 

@pindac

Excellent contribution.

@gkelly 😊👍 Some folks simple self-discredit. No response necessary.

I am a long term Tube user, Phonostages, Pre-Amp, Power Amps and later down the line introduced a Valve DAC.

How these devices are mounted does make a difference, to how the end sonic is perceived.

It is possible to create a tidied up end sound or an end sound that is messy.

The used Tube Input / Output Phonostages and DAC's using Tubes are very sensitive to the structure they are mounted on, as well as the Sub Plinth or Configurations for a Sub Plinth they are seated upon.

Valve Pre Amp's are also susceptible to being able to produce variances in the end sound when on a structure that is not ideally suited. The Sub Plinth or Configurations for a Sub Plinth a Pre-Amp is seated upon will show how the Bass can be Loosened or Tightened, depending on materials selected to be used.

Out of all Tube Devices used by myself and experienced in use in other systems, Power Amp's are notable for not being subtle in showing a discernible difference in an end sound, depending on the structure selected. The Sub Plinth or Configurations for a Sub Plinth a Power Amp is seated upon, is able to produce a sound that excels the Amp. The looseness of a Bass Note and Decay is very easy to detect for having tightened up, as the Amp is placed on differing Structures and Sub Plinths.

I have evolved in my investigations over many years creating a Structure and Sub Plinth Supports.

In my experiences had, Racks work at their best when seated on their own Sub Plinth. Racks also improve substantially when rigidly coupled. Sub Plinths in my experiences are usually at their best when made up as a Tiers using a variety of separators. Bypassing the devices footers can have a much improved effect, is a good substitute footer is discovered.

Granite has been a go to for numerous years as a Tier Material, numerous Board Materials have been used, where the one that proved most impressive over all Board Types was a highly compressed PUR Foam board that had mechanical properties.

In recent years all board materials used, have now been met with a material that is Superseding them. The material is a Phenolic Resin Impregnated Densified Wood Board, such as the products from the Brand Panzerholz or Permali.

These materials are not to be overlooked, they are being used in Speakers and Turntables, and can be found as well as Sub Plinths.

Phenolic Resin Impregnated Densified Wood, is the clue, a search will assist with finding Brands that have variants of how it is seen as a finished product.

Dymond Wood Board is supplied with a large range of colours, it is unknown if all colours are available in a dimension that would be suitable as Sub Plinth.

Veneering a Board is also an option, it is seen as a Method used for P'holz in both TT Plinths and Speaker Cabinets (Kaiser Speakers - Tankwood).      

@jasonbourne71  you really can't hear a difference even with tube equipment , I find that hard to believe.

Are you to use spikes under the  stand directly to a wood floor? And remove the stock feet from the amp and use pucks under the amp?  

Thanks everyone for your responses.  Sounds like everything audio; opinions all over the map.  Wanted to ask because I have to do something.  Going with hardwood on cones / spikes based on cost and aesthetics.  Thanks again everyone for sharing your experience and time.

@jasonbourne71 said 

.I have never heard any amp sound different no matter what it was sitting on. 

Exactly.

I have never heard any amp sound different no matter what it was sitting on. 

Is it possible that I could bet @kidbuck doesn’t see ten post unless he goes on a temper tantrum rant. Must be one of those asr folk. @ghdprentice so sorry such rudeness is being thrown your way. 

kidbuck

I bet you $1000. US that you would fail a blind test listening ...

You sound like quite the hustler. You're not fooling anybody. We don't do gambling here.

@kidbuck 

Nice first post….

Way to ingratiate yourself to the regulars.