What counts as an "integrated" component? My streamer + DAC + preamp is in one box (the Matrix Element X); the power amp is a second shoebox-sized box (the Benchmark AHB2). So my box count (+ footprint + cable clutter) is no greater than with an integrated amp that needs a separate streamer or DAC. The three integrated amps I've owned have all needed at least one extra box for the functionality I get in my current 2-box setup. None of them have had a DAC as good as the Matrix has, nor a power amp section as good as the AHB2 (w.r.t. noise and distortion).
The total price of these two components (in April 2022) is about $6K-$7K. I'm not aware of any other 2-box combo that gets equal (or better) test measurements for an equal (or lower) total price. Although, for about the same price, you certainly could get more than 100w power, or features such as an LCD touch screen, in exchange for a slightly higher noise floor or a bit more distortion. The other issue is volume control. The best "upstream" implementations of digital (or hybrid) volume control, such as Lumin has tried to achieve with LEEDH, may still not be quite as good as the volume control you get for a similar price in a conventional integrated amp. I don't really know, because I haven't done my own A/B comparison nor have I seen a test/review that covers the issue very well. I think the Element X has a very good hybrid volume control. Still, I'm tempted to try inserting a separate Benchmark preamp between the Element X and AHB2, just to see if I notice any SQ improvement across various volume settings. Another combo that interests me is the new Peachtree Gan400 amp + PreDac. If they ever integrate it into a single box , I'd be tempted to order one (esp. if it has an ethernet port and tip-top DAC). That would give me more watts of power and an even lower box count than I now have.
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recently bought a Line Magnetic integrated amp (216i). Got a 30% discount and free shipping. They have also given 15 days of the return policy. The product will be shipped on Wednesday. I just hope the system is good.
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FWIW Choosing this one box solution over separates.
Aurelic Vega G2.1 and either Dutch and Dutch C8 or Kii three.
Can't get any more simple with amazing sound IMHO.
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@boazxavier_000 Please let us know our thoughts once you get the Line Magnetic up and running.
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I just posted a youtube video discussing my thought process of going integrated
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After many years of having integrated amps I went separates and am so glad I did. Separate amps and linestages, phono-pre amps allowed me to really discover the sound I was looking for. I learned alot through the amp/pre-amp relationship. I had very reputable integrated amps, but separates opened up the opportunity to explore. I don’t play CDs as much as vinyl and don’t stream so having all components in one chassis is not for me. What if there is a problem with one of the components in the chassis? It all goes for repair so you need a backup. What if your phono board in your integrated does not have appropriate loading options for that new cartridge? What if new dac technology gives one the upgrade bug? Your integrated needs modular capability (which many now have) I understand the need to simplify, I like simple and firmly believe less can be more, and who knows...one day I may feel that way. Good deals can be had on separates. I have a backup pre-amp (Ultraverve) and amp (Van Alstine) that affords different combinations of synergy and sound/tubes that I can enjoy when desired. Yes, I could sell all 4 pre’s and amps and get a nice integrated. But not heading in that direction. As far as clutter...not a clutter-bug (my main system is posted here on A’gon.
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Bether a good integrate than a bad separate.
Bether a good two way than a bad three way speaker.
So we talks in the year 1976.
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Had spectral separates for close to 20 years. After a job move and loss of my dedicated room, sold everything except the speakers. Recently got back a smallish room and went shopping. Thinking integrated for size and simplicity and great reviews of luxman. Wound up buying esoteric as luxman demo was sold. I’m not missing anything from amplification and the phono section rivals my old spectral.
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I would be curious if someone did a blind test between separates and integrated if they could hear the difference. If they can hear the difference, what would they hear? They would need to use a manufacturer that manufactures separates as well as integrated.
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Just went integrated on my main system, replacing about $10K worth of separates (DeHavilland, Edge, JLTi) with a Luxman 580AXII. Driving Klipsch Forte IV's, so the 30 Class A WPC was not an issue. Now just have to get around to selling off the old gear.
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Correction; 590AXII, not 580AXII
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I am now running just two components. A Vitus R101 Mk II amplifier and a Lumin T2 streamer/DAC to feed the Revel F228Be speakers. Less clutter, less cabling and will challenge most separates.
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I still have separate's for my two channel setup & 5.1, my VAC tube amp, and ARC LS15 tube preamp, and I don't plan to change unless something goes up in a puff of smoke. I also have an Exogal Comet Plus DAC, Audiolab 6000N streamer, Spectron musical MK lll class D amp For my 5.1 setup l have the Emotivia XMC-2 AV preamp and Anthem MCA-5 amp Oh don't forget my Xbox!
All this equipment is in a low-profile credenza with glass soft close doors. OLED TV above So, l don't have an issue with clutter, and most importantly, my wife is happy! For critical listening, l always pull my Maggie's four feet into the room, and they are super easy to put back
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I find the statement that the First Watt J2 is "mid-fi" interesting but more importantly, I think you might be wasting your time and money. You don't want to make expensive changes and a month or so later find yourself in the same place - disinterested and not listening. In my experience loss of interest in listening to recorded music is rarely about the equipment. In any event, good luck.
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@larry5729 I'm probably guessing that 99% people will not be able to tell a difference assuming all components are from the same model series (For example: Pass INT 25 vs Pass xa25 and XS pre). However, even within the models, there may be different "voicings" vs anything to do with quality. Now, taking the components to extreme volume conditions may be a different story. Of course, using measuring tools are sure to show some difference based on sharing a power supply.
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@garyalex I'm talking Price wise. Plus, it all depends on what part of the food chain you are looking from. If I said "First Watt is high end", I would hear "dude...you don't know what high end is...First Watt, although nice, is mid fi at best".
From my perspective, I see my equipment as mid fi or even upper mid fi collectively PRICE WISE. I'm sure I could find $50,000 amps that I feel my First Watt blows away sound-wise.
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@aberyclark: I get what you mean about the "mid-fi" comment but in my opinion what's actually important is what you said earlier in this thread:
"To be honest, I have not wanted to listen to anything the past month or so. I have forced myself and its just not clicking. Not because my current system does not sound good....it sounds great. However, siting in my listening chair, all I see is clutter. I know everyone goes thru an audiophile "funk". however, I've seen some real simple systems of late to where its just turn it on, and enjoy the music."
Do you really think that the "clutter" is what's preventing you from enjoying the music? I'm not being sarcastic. I could understand it if you said yes, because I've been there myself. At least one or twice that kind of thinking has lead me to selling and purchasing decisions that, in hindsight, have proved not to be good ones. I'm just saying be careful. Be as sure as you can be about what you're doing and why you're doing it.
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I would go with Pass INT-25. Its best integrated amplifier pass ever made. New industrial transistors (700A 2 per channel), huge heatsinks, heavily biased into class A, the simplest pre-amp topology (Wayne masterpiece). Herb Reichardt from stereophile liked it more compared to his xs + xa combo. Just give it a listen this amp. Incredible details and deep black ground, very open but not bright or fatigue sound (The luxman may sound to you a bit veiled when compared to INT-25). Plenty of power (don't let the specs fool you) I drive Sonus Faber Olympica 2 speakers with moderate sensitivity (88db) and benign impedance (3 ohms)
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There are 3 Luxman integrated amps on the Audiogon market page.
590AXII $5,751.00
550AXII $4,508.00
550AXII $4,499.00
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I went from PS Audio BHK Pre with Pass Labs XA60.5 (and Audio Research REF75SE in rotation...) to a Luxman L-590AXII. No regrets at all. In many regards actually sound even better than the separates did!!!!
Driving Wilson Watt Puppy 8's and yes, the 60W (into 4ohms) are MORE than enough to drive the Wilson's.
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I’m also in the camp of downsizing with no regrets. Had separates of varying pedigree since 1995, and went to a Luxman 590AXII 4 years ago.
Headphone amp, phono stage, tone controls, great, great sound…
I didn’t audition any other integrated before purchasing the Luxman, so I’m not qualified recommend it over another, but it sure sounds sweet. I use Spatial Audio M3 Turbo S speakers, which are on the more efficient side of the spectrum.
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I like modern design and appreciate the lack of clutter.
I started my audio journey with a receiver with tape deck and a turn table and later a CD player.
I've had an NAD integrated and went to separates with McIntosh C2600 and MC 302 with a streamer and turntable (I still have the tape deck and while it's a conversation starter it really is a dust collector!
My current set-up is Moon 390 preamp/network player and two monoblock amplifiers.
- Moon 390 is a preamp with DAC, Streamer and phono stage. I find it an upgrade over the Mc in every way
- I chose two monoblock amplifiers because I listen to music fairly loud. Moon also makes stereo amplifiers.
Because of my personal experience I encourage you to explore your options for reducing boxes versus assume an integrated amplifier is the answer.
A a preamp/DAC/Streamer/Phono stage combo with a separate amplifier is 2 boxes where as an integrated amplifier may require a separate DAC or streamer or phono stage.
Good luck on your journey!
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“I would be curious if someone did a blind test between separates and integrated if they could hear the difference. If they can hear the difference, what would they hear? They would need to use a manufacturer that manufactures separates as well as integrated.”
@larry5729
I knew sooner or later someone going to show up here suggesting ‘blind’ testing regime. Let me just say, the premise of blind testing is flawed as it does not work for music or the equipment in question. It actually test something else - the tester himself and his abilities 😊
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@garyalex I go thru a funk like this every few years. I've been thinking about rearranging and switching in and out components for a long time. I have seen quite a few nice "minimal" systems and I am rethinking my room. Yes, I'm hoping some change may "help" with the funk. However, its like driving the same car for a few years. You get a new one and becomes fun, at least a while, to drive again. To be honest in 5 years time, I'll probably change out something again.
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@audiojan I was looking at that same amp or the 30.8 to go with my BHK before my 'breakdown" lol
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@james_edward I have heard a few ZU Speaker owners say the Luxmans are a great combo.
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The only integrated that I have seen lately that excites me is the Trilogy Audio.
I had both a First Watt and XA30.8 and never could warm to either piece. I will say that Pass has among the best customer service I have encountered.
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Cayin 688r - integrated amp along with Musical Fidelity M6SACD, Focal Aria 948
Musical Fidelity A3CR dual mono integrated, A M3CR CD, VPI MKIII, ET 2.5 tonearm, Grado Sonata Reference, kit built speakers using Legacy Audio components
Technics SA-5770 integrated, SL-1200M3D KAB fully modified, NHT 2.5's and 1.5's
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I'm not ready for an integrated on my main system of separates. I like it too much to even think about replacing. However, I recently purchased (thank you Craigs List) a used Hegel H160 integrated for my office system and really like it which makes me think the 390 or 590 would be really fine for a main rig.
When I get sick of separates, I'll bet class D will be all the rage and perhaps then I'll go with an integrated of that design.
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Just ordered a Coda CSIB ver. 1 From Mike at Audio Archon .Will be replacing a Rogue RP 7 and Odyssey Kismet monos. Really wanted to go with a lower power Luxman but room just to big.
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I didn’t move from, I set up a second system. I was either going to get a Luxman or a Hegel. I ended up getting a Hegel H390. It plays Tidal without a separate streamer and the built in DAC is pretty good.
All the Best.
JD
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I finally sold my wonderful tube separates. It was a decision that I considered for at least two years, one which I finally made. The upside is that I greatly prefer the cleaner and simpler appearance of my listening room. The ease of operation and maintenance of a single chassis tube integrated are also big pluses.
It helps me relax and enjoy the music more. I don’t think about what I might or might not be missing.
In a way, it’s kinda like driving a freshly detailed car.
Less clutter: the music sounds better. Far fewer tubes: far less maintenance and "rolling."
Clean and shiny: the car runs and feels better. :)
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YES!...One word....Lyngdorf!
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I went with a McIntosh MA6900 integrated and am super happy with the decision. I liked the idea of the 6900 because it's all analog, no built in DAC. I can get my separate fix from swapping out DAC's. I even added a Schiit Valhalla 2 in between my DAC and the 6900 to add a little tube sound, which again, I can tinker with if i want 😀. On my DAC, both XLR and RCA are live so I just switch back and forth between inputs for tube vs. non-tube. I'm extremely happy with it!
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Integrated all the way. Love the clean setup of my McIntosh MA8900, Roon Nucleus+, and Sonus Faber Olympica Nova Vs.
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Now that I'm "on a separates roll" maybe I'll even go from my tube integrated to a Luxman with built-in DAC card. :). Then it's just 3 components:
The Lux, the CDP, and the TT. One less set of IC's, and no spare tubes.
@bigtex22, ain't clean grand?
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I tried the integrated route twice and went back to separates. Always felt I was missing some detail with the integrateds.
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To each their own.
love my x200
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The new McIntosh 8950 looks like a real winner. Right now nobody has them in stock because they are so new.
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Luxman L-509x. Could not be happier!
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I have that Luxman integrated too, its pretty special.
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Makes sense to me. Fewer boxes, fewer cables, less visual clutter, less expense, more power savings, less physical weight. Wive approved.
Lean and mean is how I prefer most things.
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IMHO... Buy new or buy name brand that can be serviced or sold.
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I have now had the Boulder 866 in my system for two days and I am really enjoying it. If your budget can stretch o the Boulder it could be your last integrated.
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I went to a Rogers High Fidelity Tubed Integrated Amp, model EFH 200 Mark II. Without a direct comparison in the same system & room, there’s really no way to tell how just how really good it is but it’s REALLY good! Lots of power, best bass I’ve ever heard from tubes & a beautiful, detailed midrange with very realistic air & amazing subtle decay of sound that real instruments live have & few systems can duplicate.
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So according to op, BHK and first watt are mid-fi? At best?? Huh... Wow...
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