Your journey with lower-watt tube amps -- Can a kit be good enough?

@armstrod -- thanks for your advice. Good to try before sinking in that time and money!

@dougthebiker -- Elekit! Thanks!
@paradisecom -- thanks for the ank link
@yaluaka -- thanks for the link to the other thread. I’d not seen it. I had a different way of framing the question and appreciate the feedback here and the dialogue with others, including you.
@silverfoxvtx1800 I have heard these speakers with the Pass XA25 and the Sit-3. I agree they sound lovely and though there are differences, the Pass sounds similar to my ears. I’m curious to see if these lower-powered tube amps sound, well, different. It sounds like you are at the stage where you want to just be done with trying gear and listen to one more song! That’s cool, but I’m still curious about the variety of sounds which my speakers can produce with new dance partners. I’m not ready to "set it and forget it." 
@earthbound -- Thanks for the advice. I listen to what you listen to, mainly. This amp will be an addition to other amps that can fulfill the needs of Metallica -- or Mahler, Wagner. I’m a critical listener, not moving around the room. So, if this amp (whoever she is) comes into my life, I will be using it for the kind of music which suits the design.

@clio09 Thanks for your reply. You said to listen to atmasphere, and he said "It won’t matter if the amp is handwired or circuit board as far as sound is concerned." You then pointed out, "The whole point to point vs circuit board argument has many intangibles that need to be considered. It’s not black and white." What "intangible" factor are you referring to?

@decooney Thanks for commenting. I’m not giving up my Pass XA25 or my QS Mono 60’s so I won’t be out on a limb with this next amp. I also know that these speakers have worked fine with SET amps in a room around my size, so it’s a question of finding the right amp for these speakers in my space with my other gear.

@hilde45 

I know I sound like a broken record, I have had a lot of tube amps with my Klipsch Forte IVs and now my go to speakers are the Volti Razz, and never was satisfied until I took the leap and spent 5k on the First Watt Sit-4. With only 10 watts of class A it rocks my world. The music has a soul now and when my beautiful patience wife calls me for dinner I am always late wanting to play one more song. Forget about all those tubes, get it out of your mind…find one…I buy all my Pass and First watt from Jon at Refined Audio a awesome guy…call him…everything in the music is so sweet now with out worrying about a tube frying out…I am sure Jon will give you a audition time 30 days…

A similar thread happened here before. (And I’m sure will again). Atmosphere makes amps he is quite knowledgeable. But and it’s big but, he’s already gone through many iterations of hifi and made he’s conclusions. I don’t agree with them, for one very important reason, this is a hobby, it’s so much fun to explore, it’s not have people tell you you won’t like something when in fact, if your like me or many others, you actually will. I think this is how to quote the prior thread. Maybe just buy used amps and see how they sound and sell them on if not to your liking. prior thread - https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/300b-or-2a3-set-class-a-for-heretic-model-a

I think it’s important to realize everyone has different hearing ability and ways they enjoy their music. Do you sit in a chair that’s perfectly positioned and analyze each aspect of the music and wonder if it could be improved if you just…..Are you usually doing things and walking around so need bigger sound? 
‘I had a Rotel amp and pre, B&W speakers and Velodyne sub for 23 years. That was what I was used to. Listen to classic rock mostly and some jazz. When time came to replace my system, my buddy convinced me to try tubes. Started with a Synthesis amp, el34 and 45 watts or so and Zu Soul Supreme speakers. Was definitely a rock and roll set up and was plenty loud. Set up gave me ear fatigue to the point of headaches. Moved on to an Aric Audio 300b pset amp, 22 watts and Audio Note speakers. Best sound I’ve ever had by far. It’s wonderful. Some of the criticisms mentioned above can correct in some cases. For example, my Metallica does lack a bit of punch. The speakers go low but perhaps you don’t feel it as much. Remember this is coming from a guy who had a sub for 23 years. Is it a slight trade off? Perhaps. I feel the quality sound is worth it. Also, I don’t listen to the same music anymore. I’m much more into jazz, Father John Misty/Bon Iver/nora Jones type music now, which is what set amps excel at in my opinion. 
‘So I think you need to figure out what it is you want to listen to and choose wisely. I’d say as a general guide set is great for 90db and lower for most music, maybe not heavy base r&b. Push pull with more watts can pretty much get loud and rock but perhaps doesn’t have the characteristics that make a set amp so enjoyable. Solid state is solid state. Has its advantages but maybe not as natural sounding. 
‘Anyway, good luck and choose wisely. 

I had DIY 300B amp that I tweaked and in the end rebuild it from scratch. For 300B is very important the driver tube (more powerful is better) and driver inter-stage transformer works much better compared to RC coupling. 

How many maximal dB do we need for classical, rock, jazz music?

It looks like the distortions from 50Watt heat on the speaker's voice coil and crossover parts should be much more horrible then 10% SET distortion on maximal power distortions. 

yes theres quite a few kits just for you

I always thought the Audio Note Kits looked pretty nice:

https://ankaudiokits.com/product/kit1-kit1-10-300b-integrated-amplifier/

Thanks for the comments. Had a busy day. Need to think about @atmasphere comments bc the speakers I currently own have been driven pretty nicely with an 8w Sun Valley amp in a room larger than mine. (24 x 15 x 8 approx.). That said, there may have been additional tweaks that helped mitigate some issues you're mentioning.

Here’s a photo of them driving very similar (nearly identical) speakers to mine with the sun valley in the center. I’ll get back to the thread with more details when I can.

https://photos.fife.usercontent.google.com/pw/AP1GczNHf3PQV-V-aqEGWeygA7l6aycbB_8YIU8fzaz1k6x8Cap29ejjMN1e=w1441-h891-s-no-gm?authuser=0

I built the Elekit TU-8600S kit with all the upgrades and put the new Western Electric 300Bs in it.  It’s fabulous and drives my 94dB speakers with ease.

highly recommended!

I’ve built both PCB and all point to point kits. For me, the decision is not about sonics but about ease of construction and upgradability. PCBs are much harder to solder and much easier to screw up than the lugs of a point to point build. If you want to upgrade down the line, any parts on the PCB are also going to be way harder to unsolder and replace.

Like Ralph, I prefer more power even with my very efficient Zu Druids, but lots of people love the SET sound regardless of speaker choice. You would do well to try to borrow one or more to see how you like it before investing in a kit. If you buy a kit before listening and end up not liking it, the resale value of kits is pretty dismal, not to mention all the time it took to build it.

As far as value vs. pre-made, these days I prefer to listen to music rather than build kits. It’s all I can do to drag out the tube tester to make sure everything is operating at spec.

I mentioned to @hilde45 about eight members who all paralleled together on this same path about 8-10 years ago, many of us owning different generations of the same amps at the same times, all following each other around - making the next round of upgrades again to the same or next builders.

The DESIGNER and the types of circuits used with different types of tubes became the most fun for me. I eventually bowed out and went back to higher power amps, both tube monos and solid state.

The lower power amps did not like me and my speakers too much. There was this cool euphoric sound with a lack of drive and lacking dynamics in my case. Finally gave up, could never seem to get it right. Had the wrong speakers for it is my summation now.

What @atmasphere mentioned above about room "sound pressure levels" and/or lack thereof is something I experienced first hand. Could not quite explain it at the time. Then swapping in/out other more capable amps with more current/power which brought that back was a bit perplexing at that time. Quite an interesting realization that I sensed was going on yet could not explain what it was exactly. Thanks for posting this topic in this thread, I think this gets overlooked a lot fwiw.

Listen to the advice from @atmasphere but take the advice from @carlsbad2 with a grain of salt. The whole point to point vs circuit board argument has many intangibles that need to be considered. It's not black and white. I also would not focus so much on the sensitivity spec but rather focus on the output impedance of the amp vs the impedance curve of the speaker. There are a lot of nice SET kits and SET DIY projects out there, but a nice low power PP amp kit will be a better option. There is one exception in my opinion and that is the Class A3 amp circuits from Jack Elliano.

Here's the situation: I have new speakers, 97 db. Trying them with lower watt tube amps (45/211, 300b, etc) seems generally wise. I am attempting to borrow some from audiophiles in the area. 

@hilde45 Unless your room is a smaller one, SETs using the tubes you mention here won't have enough power if you want realistic volume levels. They might sound 'loud' when playing such amps but if you use a sound level pressure meter (available as an app for most phones) you'll see they really aren't playing that loud- their 'loud' quality is brought on by distortion rather than volume, and how the distortion interacts with the human ear.

My speakers at home are 98dB and I found I needed more like 50 Watts; less than that and the amp seemed to strain a bit unless playing at lower volume levels. I don't play stuff all that loud FWIW, but if I go over 95dB I want the system to remain relaxed and effortless.

It won't matter if the amp is handwired or circuit board as far as sound is concerned, although a handwired amp can be updated a bit more easily and might hold up better in a tropical environment (such as on the coast in Florida).

I think you can still get Dynaco kits. A properly refurbished and/or properly built ST-70 can give any SET a run for the money, especially if given the benefit of good quality parts. For that matter we make a little 5 Watt stereo amp that can run circles around any SET that is near its output power. The 'magic' of SETs is mostly a made up story, based on the simple fact that when the SET is compared to a PP amp, the playing field is anything but level. When the PP amp has the same power rating and is built properly, the advantages of SETs go away.

SETs have a lot of weaknesses. I can go into them if you are interested; not going to list them all here. But two big ones are: you have to be very careful of the loudspeakers used as SETs usually have no feedback so the normal Voltage rules the typically govern speaker design don't work for them; in addition SETs only make about 20-25% usable power so the speakers have to be more efficient than most people think. So about 99% of speakers made are inappropriate for them.

The other problem is bass. SETs aren't good at that because the output transformer typically lacks the inductance needed to make bass, on account of having something called a 'cut core' which is a saw cut in the core of the transformer, put there to reduce distortion caused by DC flowing thru the transformer to feed the power tube. The lack of inductance means at low frequencies the tube is driving something very nearly a short (as far as the tube is concerned; put another way its driving the DC resistance of the winding of the transformer which is a couple orders magnitude lower than the impedance the tube is meant to see) and that's hard on the tube.

So for best results with SETs, its a good idea to prevent bass getting into the amp. The most successful SET installations I've seen and heard all used a different amp for the bass and had some sort of crossover to prevent the SET from having to deal with the bass.

The one exception to this problem are the Berning SETs, which use a patented system that gets rid of the traditional output transformer, using instead a radio frequency method of coupling between the power tube and the loudspeaker.

There are not that many tube amp kit sellers these days.  I've heard decent sounding amps from ANK (a company that makes kits based on Audio Note (uk) designs and utilizing a lot of Audio Note-sourced components).  I've also heard nice kit amps from Sun Valley and Elekit.  I know that Elekit offers many options for upgrading the parts in their amps, including using higher quality output transformers.  In tube amp, the most important thing is the quality of the output transformer.  Amps from kit suppliers, like the one's I mentioned above, are very good bargains for the money, but, their being so few kit amps available, it would be hard to find ones that fit your specific needs and requirements (like remote control),  Most of the kits are for simpler designs, like very low-powered single-ended triode amps); if that fits your bill, and you are up to the challenge, that would be a fun way to go.

I've heard good examples of tube amps that utilize PCB for most of their circuits.  These amps, if designed well can be reasonably reliable and are readily fixable.  I would not rule out any candidate just because it does utilize PCBs.  Note too that some designs that look like they are using PCBs are actually using boards to lay out components, but the connections are by point-to-point wiring.

Generally speaking, it takes a lot of experience, help from knowledgeable, or luck, to get into buying vintage tube gear.  It is not easy to find shops where such gear can be found in good condition and where you can actually hear the item at the shop or in your own system.  Vintage tube gear can be quite a bargain and can sound very good because the technology behind tube gear is really mature and has not really advanced in MANY years.  Among the very best sounding tube amps are amps made  around 1930 (e.g., certain Western Electric amps).  Also, many vintage amplifiers can be brought back to near new condition by replacing parts with stuff that is available today, while many vintage solid state amps don't have available parts.