You don't lack bass, you have too much treble

@erik_squires  And just what do you think you are going to do about bass in any normally sized residential space?

Wow, @mijostyn you keep arguing about things I'm not talking about so I'm going to just let you have that conversation over in the corner by yourself.  Have a great weekend.

@erik_squires  And just what do you think you are going to do about bass in any normally sized residential space? Most audiophiles know that bass below 100 Hz is poorly localized. The dimensions of the room are of primary importance followed by the number and positioning of bass/subwoofer drivers.  After that it is all about crossover programming and digital signal processing backed up by a lot of power. Bass has nothing to do with size.  Low bass is more about feeling, you either feel it or you don't. Most people don't. The initial impact of a bass drum occurs at higher frequencies. The vibration of the bass drum heads after that impact occurs at very low frequencies as long as the drum does not have it's damper on.  On Brittany Howard's Jaime the first cut History Repeats has a beautifully recorded bass drum with it's damper off. You can feel the pressure waves after the initial strike tapering over about 10 cycles. I can see it in my windows in the right light. It is not something you hear. There is absolutely nothing you can do in a room to make this happen other than blow out a wall. The problem for most audiophiles is that most systems do not project the power needed to reproduce this kind of bass. What a speaker measures at one meter means absolutely nothing. Most audiophiles do not even know what they are missing because they have never heard a system reproduce low bass like this.   In a 16 X 30 foot room It takes at least two 15" subwoofers each powered by at least 2000 watts. For really low distortion four 15" subwoofers.  The same applies for Imaging. Most have never heard a system image at the state of the art because very few systems can do it. 

If you want BIG sound under all circumstances get line source speakers such a big Maggies or 8 foot Sound Labs. Line sources composed of multiple drivers like the old Nearfield Pipedreams do not work well. It has been tried many times without much success. Point source speakers always produce a small image as if you are seated far away, even the big ones. What you see affects what you hear. When listening for imaging characteristics you always close your eyes. 

Happy Saint Patrick's Day to all you Irish folks

Mijostyn is correct about target frequency plots taken at the listening position.  You want a smooth response that slopes downward from the midrange thru treble.

+1 to the OP and to blisshifi  😊

Also, if your stew has too much salt, add more potatoes.  Same Yin-yang balance I'm trying to talk about here.

Brightness isn’t just caused by the equation of the speaker’s frequency response to room size and dampening ratio as Erik mentions, but also due to other forms of noise in the chain. This could be found through:

- Poor resonance control in the speakers, rack, and components where vibration induces slurring, peaks, and nulls of certain frequencies. Great resonance control will result in much improved image solidity, making for more audible, impactful bass /and less noise through the rest of the frequency spectrum so sonics are more effortless and easier to discern.

- Jitter and EMI are usual culprits that induce high frequency noise into a system to a point where people find their system to be bright, peaky, piercing, and /or fatiguing. In such case it may be improved by using better components or cables, or introducing technologies or accessories that are designed to lower noise floor.

- Poor speaker and amplifier matching is a common challenge I see my customers and others face. Often times, people think their amps can properly drive a speaker just by looking at the specs. Some speakers require a lot of power, and it’s easy for many that are uninformed to look at the speaker sensitivity to the watts of an amplifier and be done with it. Sometimes they get lucky, but in most times, amplifiers cannot fully handle the impedance set by the speakers. Klipsch are great examples, since I know that while they claim to be of high impedance, many of them actually have an impedance dip in the midbass. Regardless, a few may look at the Klipsch’s sensitivity (say high 90s dB) and nominal impedance (usually 8 Ohm or greater) and believe a low power OTL amp would work well. Well, they’re wrong, as the OTL amp can’t handle the impedance dips, and this further makes Klipsch speakers sound “bullhorn-ish”. Sadly, even many solid state power amplifiers don’t deliver the high current needs to truly drive and control smaller speakers, which tend to be lower in sensitivity and lower in impedance. I’ve in many times guided customers to better amplification that simply wakes the speakers up to the point where no subs or larger speakers are needed.

Case in point, Erik suggests a very good point on treating the room to address and optimize  full-range frequency delivery, but it is one of many ways to address it. The whole system’s performance depends on any and all bottlenecks being addressed to a certain level.

When you limit reflective sound in any room the sound obviously becomes more localized to the speaker. The speaker gets sonically smaller

@mijostyn 

For the record, I'm not just spouting theory from books or an AI app.  I've heard this work many times.

You are missing almost all the context from the title of the thread and the additional context I added in other messages.  When I say that absorption can make a speaker sound bigger I'm specifically talking about their bass output.   Says so right there:

You don't lack bass you have too much treble

The common acoustic absorber has two functions and you are only thinking about one of them, which is about reflections and imaging.  The other function, perhaps the most researched and most important is in providing band-limited absorption to the total energy in a room.  This function is why high end panels have charts of Sabines vs. frequency.   If you can hear how wide and tall your speakers are then you probably need new speakers.

So, now that we've established I'm not actually talking about height, width and depth of your speakers but how much bass they seem to put out (see title of thread, again) you need to consider that most acoustic panels are limited to the mid to treble ranges. 

So, then what happens when you take mid and treble energy out of a room?  You end up with more bass.  It's like taking out the veggies from a stew until you only have the meat left.  Is there less stew?  Sure, but now it's beef stew and that's better than it was before. 

As also mentioned, so before you go that route, this is not the only approach possible.  I mention it to help A'goners consider multiple options.  Since taming coherent reflections is also a good thing, this approach may have multiple benefits.

If you treat a room by hardening the walls and removing the carpet, then yes, you can make a speaker sound larger.

Which is the opposite of what I'm recommending, but you do you.

@minorl The problem for most audiophiles is they have no idea what they are listening to. They have no reference. The best thing you can do is invest in a usb microphone and an acoustic measurement program. Then when you get a equalizer you will know exactly what to do. If you get a room control system it will do it for you and probably do it better, certainly much faster. Digital processors can also determine launch times and correct delays. '

I do not care for a flat amplitude curve and most people don't either, but the right curve is not far off flat. We have been dealing with target curves for 30 years now and we know what suits most people in residential situations and that is a boost below 100 hz and a slow cut above 1000 Hz so the 20 kHz is down between 6 and 12 dB. This is a good starting point for most systems. The problem is that if you do not have subwoofers the low end boost can really increase distortion in most woofers at volume. Full range drivers are at severe risk. 

@erik_squires When you limit reflective sound in any room the sound obviously becomes more localized to the speaker. The speaker gets sonically smaller. If you treat a room by hardening the walls and removing the carpet, then yes, you can make a speaker sound larger. That would be an odd approach that few of us would take. My suggestion to you is to put the carpet back down. 

@fynnegan  It is absolutely true that we don't all get to build a room just for our stereo, but I think many of us have at least some options in choosing to treat or add curtains or rugs.  My point to this discussion was to inform readers of how the speaker room interaction matters above the bass frequencies so they'd hopefully expand the choices they can make to get better balance.

@fynnegan Room treatments can be removable and are able to be customized to blend in with the décor if need be. Even a nice thick rug on a bare hard floor can make a difference. I think anyone who loves great sound owes it to themselves to learn about and implement room treatments, you won't believe how much it will improve the sound of your system.   

Dedicated listening rooms are a luxury, possible in large houses. Many audiophiles listen in their living rooms, even in rented apartments. Think about that.

😊

@mahgister *S* Just wanted to register some concern, but thought your usual approach to items audio would prevail...

Having had some 'sudden surprises' with headphones over my times, I've taken to initially park them 'off ear, dj style' if doing something novel.

Beats throwing them across the room...*L*

Best & better back 'atcha', J

Really kind of surprised at some of the nay-sayers on this thread.  I may need to reword some of my original points.

Point 1:  The room and speaker placement choices act like tone controls.  That's not all they do, but this is a very important point.  The size of the room and the speakers in them play major roles in the perceived balance between bass, midrange and treble.

Point 2:  Balance is what matters, not necessarily absolute levels. 

Point 3:  I've heard modest 2-way systems with ~ 7" woofers transformed by room treatments in smaller rooms.  This isn't just theory, it's practical experience that good room treatment was a wonderful idea.

Point 4: There are other ways to solve your lack of bass, including of course adding a subwoofer.  This thread is not trying to claim there is only one way to deal with an issue, but I specifically asked the reader to "think about" room treatments early rather than late in their process.

@mahgister *S* Just wanted to register some concern, but thought your usual approach to items audio would prevail...

Having had some 'sudden surprises' with headphones over my times, I've taken to initially park them 'off ear, dj style' if doing something novel.

Beats throwing them across the room...*L*

Best & better back 'atcha', J

@erik_squires, Omigosh yes, what a brilliant-in-concept and magnificent-in-execution speaker the Type A/III was! In 1988 or thereabouts I submitted a DIY construction article to SpeakerBuilder Magazine that was essentially a variation on the Type A format, but unfortunately they weren’t interested.

@audiokinesis My favorite all time speakers, the Snell A/IIIs used that trick, also contributed significantly to imaging.

Another side of the same coin:  If your system is well-balanced and you add subwoofers thereby extending the response an octave or more on the low end, the net result may no longer sound balanced.  In this case, it can make sense to flex your DIY muscles a bit and add a rear-firing tweeter whose response is tailored to filling in the top octave where your main tweeter is beaming. 

In my opinion.

Duke

@mijostyn very good points.  I have bass traps in the corners behind my speakers, they actually help greatly with the room. I've listened with and without them and the really help

I also use a Krell KBX electronic balanced crossover designed specifically for my speakers (incorporates some wave shaping circuitry) with low and high adjustments that I use to tune slightly. Trying to get the flat response first and then adjust slightly for effect.

I am sure that I can do more.  Room treatment is hit or miss with no refunds if you miss and most are seriously ugly.  But, sometimes worth a try.

I know McIntosh labs actually have a equalizer that might help that has balanced in and outputs.  I am looking into that or some other.

But, I'm pretty much "there" with my system otherwise. I just replaced the panels on my Martin Logan Monolith III speakers and upgraded the woofers to the Pearless woofers.  Nice!

Those speakers are still outstanding and with the Krell crossover, I don't hear any gaps or timing issues between the panels and the woofers.

I'm sure subwoofers may help, but I don't feel I'm missing anything. Especially when I go to my dealer friends and listen to my music on their equipment with subwoofers.  

But, one never knows whats in the future.  I've tried subwoofers added before, and couldn't dial them in correctly to the extent they weren't hurting the sound more.

But I know there are some really nice subwoofer systems out there.

Also, My Audio Research REF 10 pre-amp is simply outstanding an well no, not changing that anytime soon.

Thanks for the suggestions,

enjoy

my K340 is an hybrid with two dedicated cells and with an internal grid of 5 Helmholtz tuned resonators separating perfectly among other effects bass and mids and making this phone to give deep bass without flowing interaction with usual bass..

Not only that but i modified and optimized them with 6 mods... The main one is i put inside and outside anti resonance materials and dampers of two kind to comnplement each others ...

By bone resonances i feel deep bass with my chest and feet...

is it 20 hertz ?

i did not measure it but i listen big church organ music of Bach and some organ go down 8 hertz...

I am pretty sure i hear then 20 hertz or near it with my feet ...

I disliked all headphones i bough... Save the K340 i like a lot after 6 months of intensive studies about it even with the original paper of the founder of AKG who design it...

I spoke with Kennerton representant about hybrid headphones as the K340... Because i asked them how they will build one...

They said it is too costly to design right because of the research implkied, too costly to make and too litlle profit...

This design complexities is the reason it takes me time to improve them so much that they are my audiophile reference now not my small modified speakers so much i love them ..

 By the way if the recording make it possible  i hear the soundfield out of my head...Not inside my head...

 My best to you my friend ...

@mahgister 20hz in your ’phones?

...and I'll vote with @jkf011 , ultimately.  Too much I relate to the 'basser's that cruise about, megawatt subs up to anything loose in the ride rattling...

Great for one's GI tract, I'd guess...not my problem, tho'...🤷‍♂️

Dial them in to what seems to fit the mix and/or program.  I can dish out plenty, but know when it's 'quite enough, thenkewu....'

Been around enough garage bands, gone to enough concerts, rattled enough glassware...😏

@mahgister 20hz in your 'phones?  

Take care there, Rock'nRoller.... ;)

Better off making self a tactile bass shaker suit.....

"See the man vibin' down the street....'citing all the windows he meets...

Mahg's the Bassman....vibin' all the fans..."

(Appropo....playlist just brought up N. Youngs' Rockin' in the Free World....*L*)

Utter bollocks. In my large open listening room there's very little for bass to reflect on therefore little bass and high end fine. 2 subs solved it.

About Bass ...

I had 20 hertz bass in my headphone...I hear bass through my body because of skelton resonance ... Unlike any other headphones i listened too...

I had clear 50 hertz with my small speakers with no inflow of bass in the mid frequencies... Very good bass ...But no deep bass ...

I think the balance between frequencies matter as much than going from 50 hertz to 20 but with no good balance...

I live very well with my small speakers...

For sure it will be better with a bigger set of speakers or with sub.... But i listen in nearfield and i cannot put bigger speakers on my desk nor wish to accomodate a well coupled sub...

I felt no frustration in this situation because the speakers are so well balanced and good on all others acoustics factors...

But for sure my AKG K340 beat my speakers at the end... but i dont felt any evident defect when i listened my speakers ( i use them more than the headphone which are reserved for sacred listening ceremonies.)

My key word is then more "balance"  than  "bass" ...

Without bass, you're in a lot of treble.

Yes, we is...and with that pun, I'll hit the parking brake with this:

Bacons' great except during sex.....you end up biting the wrong things.
...and the grease is too salty...

Sorry, Erik.....

Let's get back to bass fishing....

@mcroth

Yeah, I’d say 60% of the back wall, 15% of the front wall is open to something. At least 50% of the right wall and 30% of the left wall are open as well, so I definitely have several gotcha’s to deal with.
For now, I have a portable divider covered with a quilt covering over half of the biggest opening between the family room and the living room. When we save up some money, that pass through is going to be filled in,

@asvjerry 

I hear Bacon makes everything better.😃🥓😃

@curiousjim 

I would be taking a hard look at those two openings and pass through to the kitchen. Do a test by covering them with plywood, heavy blakets/curtains etc. And see if it changes things. Other open areas to rooms can wreck havoc on acoustics. Especially if openings are close to  listening position.

Without bass, you're in a lot of treble.

. 

@curiousjim ....and no amount of potted palms for disguise or camo.....

Forecast: Immediate loud, followed by tense quiet accompanied by 'dry' spell....

Been lucky, not much of that in my local whether....;)

"...pass the Denifrips...thanx,,,,now, some of that dacBS for..."

"Later tonight on Cooking with the 'Phile's........."

@erik_squires 

Sorry for hijacking your thread.

@danager 

I tried that two years and two preamps and two sets of amps and an integrated ago.  And of course I can’t remember, but it’s simple enough to try.

@curiousjim 

If you bypass the denifrips and use the BS dac does it have the same issue?

@danager 

Currently I’m using a BS Node N130 with a linear power supply going to a Denifrips Pontus ll via USB.

@curiousjim 

A 10db to 15db jump in that frequency range is pretty drastic.   What are you using as a source?

Oops, my bad, the extra energy I noted is ultrasonic.

@curiousjim 

I also have a sensitivity around those frequencies where trumpets, sax, and certain guitar notes sound annoyingly loud. Less toe in did make a big difference as does room treatment. That frequency is typically around 2-3k and unfortunately some speakers have a peak there. Some room measurements could help you find if that's the case. 

@curiousjim

I did take a look at the Stereophile measurements for your speakers. While Stereophile does not do compression measurements, they do show a pronounced hump in the presence area. A Schiit Loki may be just the thing for you.

The other thing I note is that off-axis the speakers have a lot more treble energy than mids.  Definitely a speaker worth treating the sides and first reflection points for, as well as moving away from side reflections.

@curiousjim So I’m listening to Jazz @ 65-70 dbs and a trumpet pops in @80-85 dbs and it makes my ears hurt.

Are the results the same whether you are streaming from a service/file using the Node or playing a CD? What are you using as connections to the Pontus, USB or SPDIF? Are you using any of the digital features of the Hegel?

@erik_squires 

I’ve two different amps and two different preamps and it stays the same.  And this is the second pair of Reference 5’s (long story ) and the sound is just as sharp in the same areas and volumes. 🙁

@asvjerry @mahgister 

Lord knows I’ve tried,  but when she came home after spending a couple of weeks with her sister and found some Maggie 3.7i’s in the family room, it was all over for me!

@curiousjim ...helps to have her out of town on a sea cruise with some of her old girlfriends for a couple of days, but still runs the rise of the "WTF!?" homecoming...*L*

I've had minor success, but one has to pick very carefully.... ;)

@12many 

I don’t know how to answer your question.  It’s not just a trumpet. It’s anything from a Saxophone to Joni Mitchell’s voice to an electric guitar.

@curiousjim Well those are the non-speaker reasons for what you are hearing.  The other possible reasons are amplifier distortion or the speaker is compressing. That is, for whatever reason you are reaching the limit of the driver motion, and that seems odd at such low volumes.

@curiousjim Perhaps you just don’t like those instruments which produce sound at those frequencies. It’s not your system. I don’t like trumpets live or recorded and if I built a system to make the trumpet tolerable to me, it would be a misrepresentation of what a trumpet sounds like, along with every other instrument or vocal. For some reason, there are frequencies that don’t appeal to me (live or recorded) and I don’t like song that include those frequencies or have alot of energy at those frequencies. Do you enjoy those instruments/vocal live?  Does the trumpet bother you if it is at 75 db?  

Beyond that I would look at different speakers or dampening in front of the tweeter.

Bribe her with a gift 2 days  before asking ...😁

And,  I doubt very seriously that the wife will let me put any treatments on the ceiling, but I can always ask. 😁

Hi @erik_squires 

Thanks for the reply.

The speakers have maybe 1° of toe-in. I will make it zero.  The floor behind them is carpeted, but I will definitely try more absorption behind them. Behind me is almost no wall at al. There are two door size walkways and a pass through from the kitchen.

And,  I doubt very seriously that the wife will let me put any treatments on the ceiling, but I can always ask. 😁

@curiousjim You may have the speakers toed in too much. Many speakers are really designed for little to no toe-in, so the slightly off-axis response is a lot smoother.

Another thing to try is the floor behind and in the floor between speakers. Bare surfaces there can often result in a lot of hash. Also, most underestimate the benefit that treating the ceiling between speaker and listener.

Lastly, check the wall behind your head.  Try absorption or dispersion there as well.

@erik_squires 

So I’m listening to Jazz @ 65-70 dbs and a trumpet pops in @80-85 dbs and it makes my ears hurt. The same can be said for Saxophone, electric guitars and some female singers.  I currently have 6 absorption panels and furniture and CD racks for dispersion. Carpeted floor and a lot of soft things in my room.

I have tried 2 preamps(both tube hybrid), two sets of mono blocks (both sets are tube hybrid) and a Hegel H390 (that is on the warmer side) and I’m still getting that sharpness above @80dbs. My streamer is still the modded BS Node N130, going to the Denifrips Pontus ll and the speakers are still the KEF Reference 5’s.

Any thoughts?

Interesting thread.

As usual many half truth by our friend:

Treating a room makes speakers sound smaller not bigger.

This is completely false except for those who had no idea what they acoustically do ...Room acoustics by the way is not only the use of passive materials on a few panels.  More active devices can be used as resonators;  and yes even materials treatment and especially active treatment with among others devices as Helmholtz resonators can make the acoustic recorded translation of any album bigger and more holographic in your room new fine tuned acoustic space ...

Subwoofers can make a system sound bigger [...]

The op is right here then mijostyn too ... 😊

I am a fanatic when it comes to measuring systems

Go only measuring gear with your other gear/tools  and room  ad infinitum till perfection ...😁 For us any measures set must be coupled to hearing/brain  experiment biological controls too ,  save inner ears measures and HTRF  tracking measures  the most important one anyway with the room geometry and size and acoustic content  ...

Dead rooms are boring.  Subwoofers are essential.