Would you still pay $10k or more for a turntable not full analog front end these days ?

No, of course not. One day I should get a streamer and better DAC but I am on a tight budget so can't upgrade whatever I might want to.

Right, but I didn't mean that. I explore new music on youtube too.

Not in CD or hi-def quality tho. 

I think the solution is buy used on both from a reputable dealer.the music room sold me a 70k turntable for 8k.i picked up lp 12 table and several hundred records and cd several hundred from a kind old man who was going in a nursing home and just wanted someone to live them like he has and apogee for 2 k with the ps audio amp early model.enjoy the music prior to us going to the home.stay healthy

Right, but I didn't mean that. I explore new music on youtube too.

That's one problem with digital - nothing to do with it but listen.

That’s not really true — I spend many hours exploring worlds of wonderful new music/artists I’ve never heard before, and then there are all those great playlists I need to go through and choose from.  Oh the horror!  Heh heh.  Funny how one person’s problem can be another person’s gift.

Fine tuning is important part of audiophile engagement, unlike music lover engagement. That's one problem with digital - nothing to do with it but listen.

Once you own a streamer, you just plug in and go, there really isn't much involvement.  With a TT, you can spend unlimited time and money tinkering with it. Needles, cartridges, pre-amps, tone arms, etc...

@mswale You just reminded me why my TT remains in storage. 😉

My TT aways sounds better over my steamer. The TT is only as good as a source, some records are crap, and a good TT will let you know that. Over the streamer that most stuff sounds the same. 

Out of curiosity, how much $$$ do you have invested each in your analog and streaming setups, and what are you using as a streaming service?  BTW, I can very easily tell the differences between various recordings of the same material in Qobuz, and I’m only using a $400 iFi Zen Stream (with their iPowerX power supply).

From an investment standpoint, you are better off getting a turntable over a streamer. Streamers are not like computers, every 18 months a better one comes out. Not so much with turntables. Once you own a streamer, you just plug in and go, there really isn't much involvement.  With a TT, you can spend unlimited time and money tinkering with it. Needles, cartridges, pre-amps, tone arms, etc...

Yes, records are stupid expensive, 2x the cost of CD's. Most records are at least $30 a piece, usually I feel lucky to find one at $25. 

My streamer and TT get almost equal use. It's hard to play a record and cook dinner. Dirty hands have no place near a TT. My TT aways sounds better over my steamer. The TT is only as good as a source, some records are crap, and a good TT will let you know that. Over the streamer that most stuff sounds the same. 

@gdnrbob - A lot more if I had an unlimited supply of FIM purchased in the last century. The cost of film has risen many times the cost of LP's.

@OP. This is basically a value proposition question as far as I'm concerned i.e. take the cost of the relevant software collection and divide it by the cost of the playback equipment. Or put more simply, a big record collection better justifies a big investment in the turntable/arm/cartridge. I know that calculation limps for streaming given that the size of the collection is exponentially larger than any physical collection. But then that depends on how valuable almost limitless choice is to you. I listen to my records and cd more than I listen to streamed music (and I have a reasonably large collection of both) so continued investment in playback systems for CD and vinyl is justified.

@ghdprentice 

That air is rarefied so limited exposure for most.  For credibility speak about digital formats, vinyl pressings, genres and the differences, not the sameness.  If you don't hear a difference that means you don't hear a difference.  That sort of anti-qualifies you in my book.  But that's my opinion.  Which is worth the print on this page, nothing more.

Note that you can't in good conscience enjoy BOTH analog and digital. Nope...you gotta take a stand! I happen to very much enjoy my trusty old Linn/Akito/Ortofon MC analog, my new-ish Cd player, and streaming. Am I enjoying things too much? Am I ignoring the hallowed opinions of the golden eared "experts?" Yes, and yes.

Would you still pay $10k or more for a turntable not full analog front end these days ?

Assuming the question was turntable only, yes. Probably the Technics  SL-1000RE-S. Plus a new cart and phono stage. A few things need to align to make that happen, but that's my goal.

"My point is simply that more expensive streamers can and do sound much better than a $2k streamer"
Th cost of an item does not mean it sounds better. However Aurender, Grimm, etc certainly sound far better than an el cheapo streamer. Just listen.

@lewm isn't the cable from the streamer deliver the stream to the DAC? like 1s and 0s? 

I don't understand the controversy. Once the stream is picked up by the end device, it still has to traverse the output stage of the streamer in the home system.  There is where one streamer can sound better than or surely different from another streamer.  What's the problem?

Now, you are changing this to "sounds different". In this case you have to consider the entire chain.

@mikhailark No! My only point from the start was refuting your assertion that there’s no benefit to spending more than $2k on a streamer. That’s just absurd. Period.

@grislybutter good for you, so you already know everything you need.

@soix - your question includes multiple other components. Please re-read my information. I said bits come identical from $50 device and from $50K device. It is trivial to verify having proper equipment.

Now, you are changing this to "sounds different". In this case you have to consider the entire chain. Maybe DAC is over sensitive to RF noise? I don't know. "Sounds" is subjective. Did they stage experiment properly? Who knows.

I know that amp that looks nicer to me also sounds better to me :-) and this is normal since our perception is not isolated. 

@mikhailark I write code every day ETL-ing Gigs of data so I know a bit more than the basics.

Spending that much on one component would make me want to upgrade everything else too. Well, maybe except one power cord and a set of RCAs.

I said everyone is free to spend their money the way that want. They are also free to think what they want. They may even disagree with professionals. Their choice. But stream is exactly the same in $1K streamer (actually, in $50 streamer) as it is in $10K streamer.

@mikhailark You keep sidestepping the ultimate point that more expensive streamers can and do sound better. Of course all streamers receive the same bit stream, it’s what they do with it afterwards that makes the difference. So now you’re saying a $50 streamer sounds the same as a $10k streamer? Gimme a break dude.

@grislybutter - Net is designed to deliver perfect bits. It transmits ridiculous amount of information every second and a packet becomes garbled it is rejected by the receiver and retransmitted.

Can someone imagine military encrypted data to come in a non-perfect way? Legal documents modified? Guess not. Audio stream is basically a file, operation is no different from opening WAV file from a network share like NAS.

No one really develops their own network stacks except major OS manufacturers. It is a complex software that is extremely expensive to develop. So network code comes embedded in the device OS which is typically some flavor of Linux.

What I can imagine is noise added to USB cable that goes from streamer to the DAC. Like by a bad power supply. Or DAC overly sensitive to the USB issues. А DDC reclock/isolation unit may resolve issues then.

But seriously, USB chips are also standard. No one writes custom USB transmission code. USB driver is part of OS or provided by a major driver developer. Ex Denafrips uses USB code from Thesycon.

got it thanks @inna

in that case, for the table alone, if I had 10K, I wouldn't. It would be a waste on me.

@soix - I said everyone is free to spend their money the way that want. They are also free to think what they want. They may even disagree with professionals. Their choice.

But stream is exactly the same in $1K streamer (actually, in $50 streamer) as it is in $10K streamer. 

$2K streamer has better screen, nice chassis and good app to control it. Someone engineered and made custom device and needs to be paid. But this has nothing to do with bits.

I am not naming any names and I am not ASR guy that tries to argue everything to a bitter end. I provide professional opinion. What are going to do with it - your choice.

No, I don’t buy $$$ power cables either. I know physics. What is your point?

@mikhailark My point is simply that more expensive streamers can and do sound much better than a $2k streamer while you think a $2k streamer sounds as good as pricier streamers because you write code and therefore know everything for certain. Again, do you honestly think all the experienced people here who’ve spent >$2k on a streamer because it sounded better are just fools who’ve been duped? Because that’s exactly what you’re saying here.

Do all knives cut the same if they have the same sharpness ?

No.

tomcy6, and you ?

@mikhailark I asked questions in that thread that would have clarified that a 10K streamer does something different than a 1K streamer and I never got a fair response or explanation. I just wanted to learn and understand what would/could be the reason for the difference and the conversation fizzled out without an answer. The answers that were provided with all that bit-perfect stuff would have proved your point.

Would you still pay $10k or more for a turntable not full analog front end these days ?

So you just wanted to start an analog vs digital argument?  You really don't have anything better to do? 

grislybutter, it means just the table. Tonearm, tonearm cable, cartridge and phono stage are not included.

for a turntable not full analog front end 

I am sorry for my stupidity but what does this sentence mean?

On the subject, the part I understand: yes I would. 90% I listen to is vinyl. I don't know what a 10K turntable sounds like but probably pretty sweet.

@soix -are you a network software engineer? I wrote code that used in these streamers. Yeah, I am a minority. Guess what? Network engineers ARE a minority in general population, not everyone is educated in the field. And yes, streams and Word documents are same thing from transmission perspective.

You are free to spend money on anything you want, its a free country. People buy supplements since they know better than doctors, so what. They buy ’performance’ chips for their cars. So?

No, I don’t buy $$$ power cables either. I know physics. What is your point? To convince me that code that I wrote somehow works differently because someone thinks it should? Really?

Somehow people trust their doctors but never trust engineers. Right.

It's too bad that we all can't gather together and do all these comparisons. But I think I know the outcome. Other things being about equal, tape would win, and most or all of us would agree. Comparing streamers would be interesting too. Some audiophiles pay big dollars for relatively small difference, not just for streamers - for everything.

Nakamichi Dragon was not the very best cassette deck made. A few other Nakamichi and a few Tandberg decks were better. Nor was it the most reliable.

@mikhailark If you wanna believe a $2k streamer sounds as good as a $6k+ unit from Innuos, Aurender, Grimm, etc., well, suffice it to say you’re in the vast minority here. There are many, many very experienced audiophiles here who’ve happily and enthusiastically upgraded to pricier streamers because they sounded much better, period, no matter what you think about the internet being perfect and Word documents opening without errors — apples and oranges dude. Or, maybe you’re right and all these audiophiles wasted their hard-earned $$$ on fairy dust and that they’re all just kidding themselves that their more expensive streamers actually sound better. Sure, that’s gotta be it. 🤪🙄

It's not just mastering, the vinyl itself should be of high quality. Just listen to some older American records and Japanese records from early 70s.

@inna - you had to upgrade digital b/c network and computer speed was insufficient for high resolutions. Now you can have 24/192 pretty much everywhere along with DSD. This does not have to be upgraded.

Actually, good analog is quite a bit harder to engineer and make. LPs often have better mastering and yes, they sound better than CDs mastered to sound good in a car. 15" IPS reel is a nice media for recording. Cassette? Not really. Maybe Nak Dragon still performs.

I will take 24/192 ADC recording over any cassette.

@soix - thank you, I know how computers and technology works fully and completely. They are all identical Linux boxes, just fancy cases and screens.

If you think there are some sort of "bit errors" or "jitter" on the Net, think why is that Word document opens perfectly after travelling half of a globe over 100s or switches, fiber, electric, radio, satellite transmission and so on, converted to analog and back 100s of times.

Please spare me lectures on network stacks, OK? The transmission is designed to be reliable even in nuclear war.

@wlutke

No mystery here. My systems are shown under my UserID. My analog end is a contemporary near Klimax Linn LP12, with a Ekos SE tone arm, Koetsu Rosewood Signature cartridge set up by an advanced certified Linn technician in my home. It sits on top of a Silent Running Audio Ohio +++ Class isolation platform designed specifically for my turntable. I use an Audio Research Reference 3SE phonostage… instead of a Klimax phonostage because it sounds better.

So, yes, I would spend $10k on a turntable if I had them and felt the need. Probably more than $10k.

It appears that more and more audiophiles switch almost fully to digital, and I don't think that's progress, regardless of how good digital may sound. There are older analog recordings and new ones can be made too, so turntable should never become obsolete, along with tape deck. Personally, I'll spend real money, real for me, only on analog. Besides, I believe that digital can in fact be more expensive to make it sound good and you have to constantly upgrade it.

@soix 

At the moment I’m running a 30 yo Thorens with Goldring 2300 cart and Herron phono.  My Aurender n200 through an Audio Mirror 4se does not make music as well but is more accurate at reproducing sounds than my vinyl is.
Ghprentice has spent much money climbing the ladder to a $23k streamer and says it matches his mystery analog system, set up by who, we don’t know.  Has he spent as much time and money exploring the best analog has to give, we don’t know.  He may be right, he may not, we don’t know.  We do know he was not saying his digital equalled vinyl with a $10k streamer.

I would not purchase my $45K analog end (or lessor) today. I am now down to using it once every couple of weeks. I will bring it out if I have visitor to show there is no meaningful or consistent better sound quality with it than my streamer.

Digital for me.

As time goes by, it will equal and best vinyl as technology proceeds.

BTW,  how many rolls of film have you processed recently?

B

This is like that old joke about bacon and eggs- the chicken is involved, the pig is committed.

I’m "committed" to the LP format since 1970 or so. Which means I have a fair amount of records. Yes, more work, and if I were starting out today, I’d seriously question going down the rabbit hole. Aside from the gear, you’d have to look at the cost of the source material. Older pressings are great, but grading and price inflation make it expensive. One of the reasons I’ve shied away from tape- it isn’t the cost of the machine, it’s sourcing the tapes. Some new LPs are terrific and don’t cost a fortune-- e.g., the Tone Poets label. There are others.

I experimented with streaming without going all out- I was surprised at how good it sounded using Qobuz, but the catalog was more mainstream, not so deep on more obscure jazz.

If I had to choose only 1, analog for superior sonics.  But I’d refuse to choose because I want and have both.  Tie between turntable excellent sonics and streaming convenience including discovering new music via Roon, Tidal/Qobuz.

Spent considerable effort to get the best price/performance with limited budget. Used VPI Avenger, used Grail SB, used Linn DSM/2 w Organik DAC upgrade (streamer DAC, sonic bargain). 

When a $10k streamer closes the involvement gap with vinyl I will buy one.
 

@wlutke It does.  There are several people here who now say their streaming setup is the equivalent of their expensive and accomplished vinyl rigs.  Talk to @ghdprentice for one.  And @mikhailark if you think a $1k - $2k streamer is even in the same ballpark as the better streamers from Aurender, Innuos, Grimm, etc. you’re deluding yourself.

Yes and no, respectively. I measure the value (to me) of my turntables, cartridges and phono stages in terms of pleasure, not just sound quality. There are recordings that I have on vinyl, CD, and SACD, and it's nearly always the vinyl I choose. But that's just me, and I don't suggest that it should be true for others. Your job is to do what gives you the most pleasure.