Actually you can fine tune digital.  I've heard it being done successfully on friends' setups.  Mostly, it is tweeks to the setup environment--dampeners, isolating mats.  One tweak I did myself was to try a lot interconnects.  Got some significant improvements on my now dead Wadia.  (Lazer blown, can't find a replacement outside the place in LA that bought all the NOS off of Macintosh when they shuttered Wadia.  They want more for the parts than the CD player is worth.)

Went looking for a new CD player recently.  Three surprises: CD players are starting to get better sounding to the point where analog may not be necessary in 5-10 years, heard a solid state system that was starting to approach tube sound w/o and overdesigned, custom room, and finally heard a streaming source that was pretty darn good.

This steamer was connected to Qubuz (first time I heard that service).  Played a bunch of recordings on that.  I also could hear the difference on different recordings, per solx's comments of the same piece of music.  And the quaity differences were the same as on vinyl.  This is the first time that I heard anything streaming show this much depth and character (or lack thereof for bad recordings).  Used to be that the digital services acted like a nuance filter and made diffrerent recordings sonically sound the same, and much poorer than the original.

I've been reading everyones comments for the last year or so.  Rarely made a comment myself becuase of lack of anything valuable to add.  With all of your comments, I'll have to figure out how to put one of these systems in my stereo.  

Yea, there is one real and one possible reason that analog sounds better than digital.  

The real reason is cost optimization.  The push for the CD was really to reduce costs and decrease failure rate of recordings.  Vinyl is very expensive to produce, and putting music on a CD, essentially coping a compter program, was much cheaper with an inherintly lower failure rate.  CD's were never designed for higher quailty of reproduction.  They were marketed that way--namly focusing on theiir lower background noise and eliminating wow and flutter.  The companies never commented on washing out much of the overtones and dynamics that makes music really sparkle.

The possible reason is just a SWAG on my part.  Digital TV's are way, way better than the analog sets that they replace.  And were from the start.  I remeber the early analog HD TV's when I went Japan.  They weren't as good as the digital signal when introduced in the US.  Digital audio is catching up to analog, but really hasn't gotten there yet.  The difference may be the speed of transmission.  Light travels and 2.998x10^8 m/s.  Sound travels at around 740 mph at sea level.  Electronic circuits operate near the speed of light, which is best decribed by quantum mechanics.  Descrete levels of energy.  Sound is much slower, so it is very analog in nature.  Countinous levels of energy.  The differnce between quantized energy vs analog energy may be a inherit disadvantage to digital systems with regards to sound reproduction.  You would need advansces in sonic theory, which is way beyond me.  And describing music quality is way beyond the standard sonic equiations we currently use.  If the current equasions worked, then we wouldn't have engineers coming on and insisting that solid state sounds better than tubes--mainly because the equations that they learned in school tells them that that is so.

There are probably other reasons, but I am just a former physical chemist, not an expert in sound or electronics.  But I am an expert at testing and evealuating data, and this wouldn't be the first time I've seen generally accepted equations be wrong or limited.

Data trumps equations every time.  if your equations do not accurately describe the real world, it is the equations that are limited or wrong, not the real world.  (Many in science and esp. engineering struggle with that.)  That is why we have general relativity now; Newtonian equations stopped being accurate once systems moved faster than 0.10 c.  In the same way, sonic equations from undergrad, and possibly graduate, physics textbooks are inadequate do describe music quality.  The current equations are just too simple.

Thanks to all for help with help with the different streaming devices.

Well, the man wants to maintain his stance, why not just let him be ? I disagree with him too but feel no need to argue.

@cleeds 

+1

mikhailark

No, no one actually offer anything apart from "just listen". You can just rest your case now, you obviously don’t understand how networks operate ...

It's interesting that although you acknowledge many here have asked you to "just listen," you seem determined to do anything but.

This is a forum for audiophiles. I think asking someone to "just listen" is perfectly reasonable. It isn't clear why it troubles you so.

@soix - details please. How does power cable or linear power supply affect running code in the CPU or a network card operation..

No, no one actually offer anything apart from "just listen". You can just rest your case now, you obviously don’t understand how networks operate. Hey, even Denafrips main engineer explains that, but who he is after all, nobody.

Perhaps also call Tidal and tell them to pass over to Amazon (or whatever cloud they rent) to upgrade power cables, install "musical" SSDs and place an order for LAN "Silencers" since they improve stuff and and this will be great for the bottom line - both Tidal and Amazon. I wonder what will happen.

Also, if they use Google cloud, shame, because Google farms are designed and built on crappiest and cheapest computers possible, designed to fail. I wonder how is that FLACs are not affected.

I am happy with my streamer/dac box. With the right set up, It sounds great. Digital changed the music business. Record labels, musicians, etc  are not getting paid what the used to. So, why not keep the old medium alive. No one mentions how distracting are the hisses, noises, and pops of vinyl. Yes, it sounds warmer, but at what cost? Frequency limitations? Old habits are hard to break.

Anytime, I tell any of my friends or any random person that I got back into vinyl a little bit ago goes on about the pops/hiss/noise of records. Yeah, that's what I also remember as a kid. However, now I know that the noise is from static, dirt, and bad stylus. After you clean a record, and use a good stylus, there is no pops, or hiss. Depending on the recording, no other noise.  Now on lesser recordings, the lack of fidelity bothers me.  After my cleaning process, they sound fabulous!  Usually better than streaming, or CD. 

So the question was - what is exactly different in $10K streamer as compared to $1K.

@mikhailark You’ve now been told by several experienced people here that things like parts quality, noise reduction, power cables, implementation, etc. matter in streamers.  @ghdprentice who’s been in the IT industry for decades described many engineering types he’s worked with as having convinced themselves there’s no way in theory these things should make a difference and just hang their hat on that belief, and you seem to be in that camp.  But he also gave you the best advice and that is, rather than just arguing why these things can’t or shouldn’t make a difference just listen — find a way to demo a better streamer and just listen in your own system and you’ll have your answer rather than continually raising this same point over and over based solely on theory.  

@total111 - the question is indeed purely digital. It is about streamer as a computer. Streamer makes network requests to the cloud and routes packets over USB. Analog conversion is a different subject. There is no analog in the streamer.

So the question was - what is exactly different in $10K streamer as compared to $1K.

I think to simply put a 10k number on “just a table” is kind of silly. The better question is, would you spend 10k on an analog setup, full table etc, maybe even include the phono stage? 

To answer the above, yes I would. My analog setup is my go to. However, it is impossible to argue the virtues of streaming. Convenient, a wealth of available music, set it and go etc. To argue if a 1k streamer is the same as a 25k streamer is irrelevant. To each their own. If the thing sounds good to the individual, then it does. Doesn’t matter how much the cost. 

@mikhailark "The issue is in pure digital,"... music will ALWAYS be translated into analog...your ears cant consume flac file

@dogberry not sure how good an analogy a printer is, but using a computer, we are not aware imho, that we ONLY work in the digital domain, but music is ALWAYS analog... and the theory/hypoothesis is that some dirt might accumulate in the digital domain, which do not affect the 0 and 1s but the DAC in some ways

I’ve been collecting since I was 11, in 1965.  I have 6,000 LPs.

its all I can do to find time to listen to them, never mind streaming. 

No, I think I could find a good turntable for $3500 or less that would fit me just fine.

There’s space in my systems for most of the above. I waited a decade plus to buy a Linn Klimax DS2 at an affordable (used) price. Some Qobuz or NAS (CD and vinyl rips) tracks sound so amazing I almost want to cry.  I’m an ex radio DJ and putting together a great playlist with Qobuz and NAS with the Linn app puts the emphasis on musical enjoyment, not fussing with things. 

I have some great records and when I have time, the ritual and sonic experience is wonderful and nostalgic. So is it worth $10k, heck yeah. Don’t ask us, just have fun researching, auditioning, and setting up. Our opinion doesn’t matter, your enjoyment does. 

“system 2” is wired whole house and has a Nakamichi 680ZX, which I love for the things that only exist on cassette. And streaming. And FM but don’t listen much to that anymore. 

@total111 But what happens when we print a doc, then scan, then print again? Are the two prints same?

This sounds like a zen koan, but thinking of a printer as a digital to analog converter is an interesting thought!

I listen to digital, I pick up a book.

I am happy with my streamer/dac box. With the right set up, It sounds great. Digital changed the music business. Record labels, musicians, etc  are not getting paid what the used to. So, why not keep the old medium alive. No one mentions how distracting are the hisses, noises, and pops of vinyl. Yes, it sounds warmer, but at what cost? Frequency limitations? Old habits are hard to break.

@total111 - certainly. Conversion to analog is a wholly different subject.

The issue is in pure digital, and not just digital like with jitter, but computer networks. Streamers. Routers. Firewalls.

Dear IT guys claiming bits are bits

a) yes, I work for IBM too ;-)

b) yes bits are bits, agree

c) Agree, lots of snake oil with $1000 LAN cables...but thats nothing new in our hobby

d) And its not all Linux ;-) my windows server 2019 sounds better than Linux ;-)

But what happens when we print a doc, then scan, then print again? Are the two prints same?

So the conversion to Analog is the key, and ALL cables carry some other info than the 0s and 1s...a cpu doesnt care, but the DAC does, info on the groundplane and jitter adds info to the groundplane...thats the simplified explanation why it matters what happens in the digital domain ...just because you did not hear it, does not mean it does not exist ... ;-)

kennyc, besides being very useful to me, Nakamichi 682ZX tape deck that I have is a piece of audiophile history. It is also analog almost all in one component, you can listen to it with headphones. Its headphone amp is not great but not too bad.

The very best Nakamichi deck is thought to be 1000zxl, though some prefer ZX-9.

DS Audio cartridge system is very interesting, I read about it.

@inna -

funny that you mentioned Nakamishi Dragon, I plan to get their 11.4.6 wireless surround system which got great reviews. Saves me from running wires all over the place.

These ethernet experts are so tiring, thinking that their knowledge is equivalent to knowing everything about high-end audio streaming.  Rarely bothering to do any additional research on why better components "sound" better.  Thinking that bits are bits but ignoring there fact that the data rides on an analog signal that is subject to picking up noise that we can hear on "transparent" (beyond box store) high-end audio chains.  Then there's digital audio jitter timing deviation that can cause distortion and noise in the sound.  Seems most naysayers are "I'm right until you prove me wrong" aka too lazy from trying it out themselves or looking up the evidence on their own. 

Agree that can have good/great sound for less, but high performing turntable, tonearm, phonopre, and cartridge can quickly get expensive.  Maybe someday I can afford to try out DS Audio cartridge systems and one piece diamond canteliver+stylus cartridge.

Yes, it’s not necessary to spend big bucks to enjoy great sound with vinyl. However, it can get better with more expensive gear.

My view is that vinyl can be better not necessarily because it’s analogue, but because it’s mastered better.

I have found that what’s good about vinyl still persists after the analogue signal is transferred to digital and back. In other words the AD and DA conversions can be transparent. With the Linn Urika Ii phono stage, doing some of the RIAA processing in the digital domain is beneficial, presumably because distortion  and noise is reduced.

Though I don't follow current prices, I believe it is necessary to spend $25k-$30k on entire analog front end to have a great sound. You can have good or even excellent sound for less, that's true.

@jlbkmb1958 - if recording was made and mastered digitally, there is no reason to convert it back to analog. The fewer conversions, the better. 

Why would I allow anything digital anywhere near my analog system?

Vinyl. But you don’t need a $10k rig. That’s simply unnecessary!

So is a Porsche. 

Vinyl. But you don’t need a $10k rig. That’s simply unnecessary!

The OP's question conflates two issues that must be separated.

Firstly, is it worth spending that kind of money on a hifi source component? If your answer to this question is "no", then you need go no further.

Secondly, is there some extra benefit to be gained from vinyl over other formats? Having tried to live without a turntable for nearly five years, I have found that it does give something more. For whatever reason, I find it generally a more enjoyable listen, particularly over extended periods of time and mastering notwithstanding.

That's all that matters to me. All the technical and ideological discussios so far are irrelevant. 

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Buying land with $10k may be a good idea but how much of it could I get and where ?

I never go cheap, I always jump not make one or two small steps up. This includes NOS tubes. I can't afford the very best but I try to go reasonably high.

@inna my turntable is 42 years old and was pro-consumer state of the art when I bought it. I have about 10,000 Records I might buy a second turntable but first I’m buying a new tube amplifier and a new phon0 pre but neither of them will cost $10,000. With $10,000 you should buy land cause they don’t make it anymore.

of course. And the caveat is that going cheap often ends up the more wasteful route. I am stuck with broken used gear that I could fix if I bought parts, maybe, maybe not. 

I agree. But I slowly keep improving my gear too, step by step, without spending much, but still of course spending.

well, it's a hobby for people with resources for sure, $$$ helps. I feel that my lack of funds has taught me a lot, how to spend the little wisely and focus on enjoying what I have and chasing good recordings and not gear.. 

Well, some people don't even know what turntable is, let alone a good one, so to them it is all nonsense. However, I have a few other priorities too, for my easy earned money, so I can't buy it.

I have 30 other priorities/purpose for my hard earned money that isn't a turntable 

What could be a better purpose than buying excellent turntable ?

No, that’s a ridiculous amount of money for either component. I can be satisfied 100% with much less than that and use the funds for better purposes.

 +1

I think the solution is buy used on both from a reputable dealer

My turntable was about 5000 dollars in the "old" day.s...that's 10000 dollars today.

As to the question from the OP I would, actually did recently. Reading on WBF it seems the best digital streaming Wadix will run you up to 140 K and according to ML it can get you almost as good as your analog. 

Having pretty much all the music I can see myself enjoying I'll pass. Without my collection maybe do digital, maybe not. I want get as close to sublime as possible. That's where my pleasure lies for the most part. 

Analog is more reliable and convenient, everything is right there, and with streaming you got nothing, something comes from somewhere, maybe, if you are lucky. Upgrade analog, you spent enough on digital already.

My streaming rig (streamer and DAC and interconnect) is modest (by this channel's standards) at ~$6k. My analog (tt/pre/arms/cartridges) is slight higher. 

On my system, analog sounds significantly better for most recordings (old jazz and R&B). Fwiw, my cd player is also $6k and doesn't sound as good either.

That said, as several others have noted streaming kills analog it in convenience.

So for practical reasons I would turn the question on its head. Assuming, I am still talking about music created wit analog mastering, how much will I need to spend upgrading the digital side to not be able to tell the difference. 

There again, in the late 1980’s when I was buying CDs they were $25CDN, which an inflation calculator tells me would be $56CDN today, so used vinyl seems a but more of a bargain!

@dogberry CD sales have fallen off a cliff — down 96% from the peak in 2000 — and are down to where they were in the late 80s. Most new CDs still seem to be in the $13-$17 USD range so pretty inflation resistant, and I can easily find used CDs in good condition on Amazon for well under $10 including delivery (not that I even buy CDs much anymore), and they’ll only become more available as more people switch to streaming. So it’s actually a pretty good time if you still buy CDs.

It depends on how many records you really need. $30 on average is very reasonable for excellent pressings if you are selective enough. I need hundreds not thousands and I can tolerate not being able to get them all at once. I have 99 cents records and $50-$100 records, the average is in fact about $25-$30. Best NOS power output tubes are expensive, that’s the problem for me. Great $300 NOS small signal tubes are not inexpensive but considering how long they last, that’s not much really.

There again, in the late 1980's when I was buying CDs they were $25CDN, which an inflation calculator tells me would be $56CDN today, so used vinyl seems a but more of a bargain!

@testpilot Great point. Vinyl was affordable and economically accessible up until about 2010 or so, and since then things have gotten way out of hand. If I were new and getting into vinyl, especially as a young generation well aware of finances, college debt, and the cost of living, I couldn't see myself dropping $30 on new vinyl. And even used vinyl is now creeping up to unreasonable prices.  

@dogberry 

Wow! Consider me jealous! I did give up on 35mm many years ago. Today, when I shoot film, it's 4x5 . I'll shoot medium format Ilford because I have a fair amount in storage and I still love having my Mamiya C330f in my hands.

Very cool. The film freezer.

@tubes4good A lot more if I had an unlimited supply of FIM purchased in the last century. The cost of film has risen many times the cost of LP's.

My film freezer:

A day without exposing and developing a film is a day wasted.

Out of curiosity, how much $$$ do you have invested each in your analog and streaming setups, and what are you using as a streaming service?  BTW, I can veryeasily tell the differences between various recordings of the same material in Qobuz, and I’m only using a $400 iFi Zen Stream (with their iPowerX power supply).

@soix my setup is mostly vintage, but have a new TT that was a few thousand, and a mid range streamer from Cambridge Audio. Use mostly Tidal. I can tell the difference from high-res to medium. My streamer does a good job of making most stuff sound good. There are only a few streams that I'll skip when they are bad. It's usually old Blues that just had crap recordings. My point was that my TT picks up bad recordings much easier then my streamer.

I have and am very pleased that I did. I have over 1000 albums so for me it makes sense. I want to hear these pressings in their best presentation. If I was starting off and hand a very limited number of albums or CDs I would put all my money into streaming and start with the best DAC I could afford. Maybe even DAC plus power amp and streamer. Of course speakers at the top of the list. No need for a preamp because no inputs. 

@lewm - they are delivered without any losses over USB connection as are bits you write and read from USB flash drive or a hard disk. Else you would write one thing and read another. USB does not lose anything, ever, unless media (SSD, flash) is defective. There is no "timing" there.

Of course, it is another story, if you connect over optical or SPDIF....