Correction above, make sure the pre has enough gain to drive your power amp.
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Whatever preamp you settle on, make sure the preamp has enough gain to drive your preamp.
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@charliehorse
If you are looking at an older tube preamp, keep in mind that its power supply might have to be serviced out to be reliable. Some of the preamps mentioned on this thread are so old that by now the filter capacitors in their power supplies are likely shot. If such a preamp is pressed into service, the bad filter caps can damage the power transformer! Trust me on this, a power transformer failure can be nightmare not just for the evil smell they make when burning up.
So make sure the preamp is properly serviced if you go with an older unit.
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The tube conrad Johnson preamps are very good but if you can find a VTL 2.5 tube preamp it will deliver the goods and it won't break the bank. Very big soundstage, very dynamic, and very transparent.
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I don’t post often here but have sold/bought stuff several times. I have had a CJ pv1, 5, 8, and 9a. Also an ARC SP 8. I now have a Vacuum Tube Audio (tubes4hifi) line stage which uses 4 6sn7s and a tube rectifier section. I think it sounds excellent when driving a MAC MC 462 alone or with an ARC D 70 II for mids and highs. It sounds like tubes but doesn’t sound muddy or slow. It’s quite dynamic and has the type of balance control I like, a master volume control with separate gain controls for each channel. Cost is approximately 2000 depending on tube choices etc. Also a good solid-feeling remote. The other preamps I’ve had were all dynamic but lack remote control and are limited to homc or mm. Hope this helps.
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Thanks to all who have shared their advice and experience with me. Unfortunately, vehicle repairs were WAY more than expected and have put this idea on hold. In the meantime, I have been re-capping some older equipment.
Cheers!
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Lou, Thanks again. I have been reading all of the praises regarding ARC equipment, and I'm sure that it is justified. When I looked at photos of the inside of the SP-6B, for instance, it does look very crowded. I have very limited experience tinkering with electronics, but simpler is usually easier.
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I heard both the SP-6B and the SP8 at different times and on different systems. The person who owned the 6B had also said it was the best of the SP6’s (SP6A - SP6E). I also read from the later Roger Modjewski (Music Reference) in his tech days before starting MR, that he hated working on Audio Research gear, that the circuitry was always over complicated and difficult to work on. So something to keep in mind perhaps. I’ll look for your private message. The journey is the fun part :).
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Lou, Thanks for the thoughtful response and encouragement. It can be funny and surprising about equipment, good is good regardless of the cost. I don't want this to deviate into cables, so I sent you a pm.
I will read up on the suggestions that you, and the more recent contributors have made as some of them are unfamiliar. You made the third mention of the ARC SP-6B. The journey has been fun, and the enthusiasm that has been shared has been inspiring.
Thanks, Kevin
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Charley Horse - I like what you’ve accumulated in terms of audio gear. It’s all of a certain vintage and all very good sounding, without that next level price tag and performance. All good bang for the buck gear, which is where I usually have always been with my many audio systems over the years.
I’ve owned and read countless reviews of audio gear from Stereophile, TAS, HiFi News & RR, HiFi Heretic, The Listener, etc over the year, so much more than I’ll ever be able to listen to.
Regarding tube preamps, I had a Music Reference RM5 mkII for many years that I just loved (with a B&K ST140, EX442, Paoli M70 monos, and a Music Reference RM9) but for some odd reason, it wouldn’t mate up well with the c/m MV50 I had. What was mind blowing was that when I sent it in for a simple mute circuit repair, I had a $89 (at the time) lowly Dyna PAS2 inserted in my system for a few months. It was earth shattering how good this sounded, so much so, that when my MR pre came back, I preferred the PAS2.
When I had the cj MV50, I really wished I could have found a PV5 to mate it with. I don’t have any experience with cj preamps, but from what I’ve read, if you can find a cj Premier 2 or Premier 3 preamp, they are steps above the PV5.
Other great tube preamps that I read about that are a cut above are:
Berning TF10A or AH, Audio Research SP-6B, Counterpoint SA5 or 5.1, AVA Super PAS, Moscode Minuet in A, and MFA Majus….but if you are not using a silver IC between amp & pre, I would start there before changing preamps.
Have fun on the preamp journey,
Lou
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Charlie Horse - What I have not seen anyone ask here is this - What ICs do you use between amp and preamp? A most critical question to ask, IMHO.
With over 40 years in this hobby, (including a few selling audio gear at retail), I have found that having silver ICs between amp and pre is a game changer. In fact, I had a friend in No Central PA who used to make the thinnest non shielded silver ICs (called them Audio Blashemy or something like that) and for $40/m they sounded amazing! At onetime, I had 5-6 pair of his ICs on all my components but slowly gave them all away to friends and others so they could try them… I still am using silver ICs on my gear, just from other companies…
Just my $.02,
thanks,
Lou
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I second Aric Audio and LTA. I just got in for review the LTA Velo and it is a keeper. Much wider deeper and resolving soundstage without changing the tone of my amps. Love it. Had Aric Audio integrated amp and he knows how to build tube gear.
JH
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My two cents for what they are worth. I sold Counterpoint way back and the thousand series preamps were good for the money, but got much better as you climbed the chain. The 1000 was decent and did sound good for the money, but the 2000/3000 was a good step up and the 5000 was a huge step beyond. I owned the 5000 and remember it being exceptional.
All that being said, I also owned a few of the CJ preamps as well. The PV10, PV11, PV12 had a wonderful full sound and were very musical. I am not familiar with The Classic, but if it has the signature of those earlier preamps, it will have that full tube sube sound.
Best of luck on your journey and have fun.
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Thanks @mesch, There has been a listing for a pv11, but I see a new one. That model is on my short list, maybe the classic as well. I will give that some serious thought.
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Thanks again for all of the input. I have been listening to the Counterpoint for a couple of days now, and once I settled on the best sounding of the three tubes on hand, it's not too bad. It does, however, make me more confident in my decision to try a tube preamp. Life, in the form of some significant truck repairs, has kept this on the back burner for a bit longer. I'm definitely getting my choices narrowed down, and some patient consideration on my part will hopefully pay off.
Best wishes!
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There are two used Conrad Johnson tube preamps for sale here on AG. One the P11 and one the Classic. These may have the tuby sound you are looking for at half your budget. Likely could be resold at little loss if not.
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Rogue Audio RP-5 can be had for around the $2K mark.
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you best option is to buy a used Counterpoint SA-2000 or SA-3000. Why you may ask? They sound pretty good stock, are not expensive and can be upgraded to reference levels.
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Aric Audio Motherlode. I liked it so much, I bought a second one for one of my other two channel systems. No desire to look elsewhere.
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If you have a limited budget I would pursue a used component to allow you to reach up to a higher level of component. I had a solid-state amp which I upgraded to a tube amp. If you want tube sound this is the area to get it . I think you need to develop a shorter list of possibilities
. Otherwise buy a puppy
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I am overwhelmed in a good way with all of the responses, and I am learning new things. My list of possibilities seems to be growing instead of getting narrowed down. Your responses have given me the opportunity to look at some specific equipment that I'm not familiar with. I got the Counterpoint out of the box today to give it the once over and to prepare it for sale. I hooked it up in the place of the Aragon 24k, and my impression is the same as what I remembered. It sounds better than stock, but is still lacking some aspects. I might still be happy with it if I didn't have something better. So the search is definitely still on.
@rhljazz-Your mention of the Manley certainly got my attention, thanks! I am still looking seriously at conrad-johnson. Cary Audio still seems like a good option. Two mentions of ARC 6(B)! I am starting to consider that a somewhat newer model might be in the sweet spot between the older and newer versions of tube sound. These include the Van Alstine FET Valve CF, Backert Labs Rhumba, Mapletree Audio, and possibly one of the kits(?). Keep any thoughts coming if anyone feels inclined. I am very grateful for all of the replies so far!
Carry on Good Citizens!
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I have the same speakers in one of my systems. I’m using a Manley Shrimp preamp paired with a W4S ST500 amp. The Manley has more of a tube sound than my VAC Renaissance but less than my Cary integrated. No remote with the standard Shrimp but the Jumbo Shrimp has one.
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I still have the sa-1000 and feel the same about it my other system with Maggie speakers has the Shindo monbrison. I love Shindo considering moving up its line and would put it up against any of the other players. The entry preamp Aurieges is well regarded and close to ur budget. I believe it has a high output impedance. So Definitely try to take into account synergies where demoing at home is possible. Some come across analytical and some on the warm side
have fun
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Find an Audio Research SP-6B. It's a 40+ year-old classic tube preamp that still holds its own,
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If pursuing an Audible Illusions product, the L series has a remote for volume and mute. The M series has no remote control.
Currently I’m using the L3A in my main system. Love it.
Had the M3A many moons ago and always missed it once it was sold….
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I recently bought a lightly used Icon Audio LA4 Mk 3 for less than $1500 more from curiosity than anything else and was amazed at the performance. It wasn't as tubey sounding as a CJ pre but had all the other attributes in spades, especially the quietness. It was in fact the quietest tube pre I have ever heard or not heard in this case. The pre was so good I now use it in place of a well reviewed $10,000 pre, which in deference to the designer I will not name. If you can find an Icon give it a try, especially the Signature model.
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@charliehorse, as I mentioned previously, preamp tubes (and those are 6SN7s in the SLP98) do not get roasting hot like amp output tubes do, but I’d still like to give them some breathing room up top. I just did a quick search on the internet and it appears as if it goes back to ’93 (I thought is was further back than that) & listed for $1350. The tube complement was two 12AX7s ( a small signal tube) and two 6SN7s and two 6SL7s which are the same size as each other but larger than the 12AX7s. If you’ve looked at any pictures of it, you have noted that it is an enclosed chassis, so perhaps one does not need to be as cautious about having it in a somewhat restricted space. After a few hours of listening, my SLP05 and it’s power supply are very warm to the touch, but not hot enough that I cannot leave my hand on them. (The SLP98 also has a separate power supply, and I am thinking that the 70 does as well.) If you do start leaning in the direction of a 98, you might reach out to Cary and see what they think about the space you have that it would live in. You will probably have to email them, as I think that their tech support no longer talks on the phone to people about product questions and problems. In the days of old, customer support was a huge selling point for Cary as far as I was concerned.
Here is what someone had to say about their Cary SLP70:
"I actually have another Cary Audio SLP-70 that has been highly modified that I now use for phono only duties. These units really do have nice phono stages as do most tube amps of this vintage. Unlike the Conrad Johnson tube preamps, the Cary SLP-70 does not seem overly warm or sweet. It provides a clear, clean, and open presentation and never does anything to get in the way of the music. It reveals the details of the music, but not at the expense of blunting the transients."
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@immatthew - Thanks for the additional input regarding Cary equipment. I wasn't able to find as many reviews about the 70, but based on reviews about the 98, I agree that it should perform at a much higher level. Based on that potential, I haven't ruled it out. One issue with exposed tubes is that I have an enclosed cabinet and the tallest available shelf is 7" tall. The 98 is 5" tall. I have no idea how much heat any of these preamps will produce, but that is one concern. I also have a dog, but she has very limited, to no access to the cabinet. I also appreciate the point regarding tube rolling. That would be much easier.
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@immatthewj - I seem to have a gut feeling that Cary would be a great option for me. The SLP 98L gets a lot of good reviews and one is available for $2,000. I'm not sure that I would like the exposed tubes. I just read something from a old Audiogon post describing the SLP-70 as having a warm, old school tube sound.
As I typed previously: I've no experience with the 70 OR the 98, but based on my experience of going from a modded SLP90 to a SLP05, I suspect the SLP98 would outperform the SLP70 hands down. If I am not mistaken (and I well might be, so you might want to look at some reviews for the SLP70) it was one of the first preamps Cary ever came up with and kind of an entry level one. I think Cary preamps progressively got better and better. What I have read, here on A'gon, about the '98, is that it has a "sweet" sonic characteristic, which to some probably means warm. As far as the exposed tubes, I guess that's a practical matter as well as personal preference. Preamp tubes do not get blazing hot like amp output tubes do, but still, they are sticking up there, and if there are animals or children who are apt to mess around with them, well, that is a real consideration.
The exposed tubes has become another characteristic of most Cary gear, and it is actually one that appeals to me on an aesthetic basis, however I can see it may not be for everyone. I will say this about the exposed tubes, it does make rolling tubes and/or troubleshooting a tube easier.
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https://www.usaudiomart.com/details/650109941-modwright-instruments-swl-90-se/
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@charliehorse
If you are looking at the black unit, they should have a remote for it. I sent an extra remote with mine. You can buy them from c-j for $40.
I bought mine new in 2001 and it was the last piece that I upgraded. I initially went to a conrad-johnson Premier 17LS2 which was better in some respects, but not all. I now have a Linear Tube Audio MicroZOTL preamp
I think the PV-14L paired well with my solid state amp. I never felt that it was overly warm or tubey. I used Mullard M8080 tubes. I think you'd like it. I wanted to keep mine, but it would have just sat in storage.
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@sls883
Thanks for the information on the listing. If you have the time, could you give your opinion as to where the PV-14L rates on the tubiness spectum? Thanks
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@charliehorse
Or, maybe it sold. They inspected it last week.
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@charliehorse
Mine might not be listed yet. Mine has a gold face and is in mint condition. Includes the remote, box, etc.
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Thanks so much for the input so far!
@sls883 - I've been looking at that one. Their ad states that the remote is not included. Most of what I read claim that the 80's era C-J's were the "classic" tube sound. Would you characterize it's sound as firmly in the tube camp? I know that C-J makes fine equipment, so that's not a concern.
@mofojo - Budget is around $2,000, and I will using a solid-state amp. Either the Hafler or Aragon.
@jasonbourne71 - I was hoping that you would chime in as this topic is in your wheelhouse. I will keep those in mind, particularly the Audio Research SP6.
@immatthewj - I seem to have a gut feeling that Cary would be a great option for me. The SLP 98L gets a lot of good reviews and one is available for $2,000. I'm not sure that I would like the exposed tubes. I just read something from a old Audiogon post describing the SLP-70 as having a warm, old school tube sound. Hmmm
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Thanks so much for the input so far!
@sls883 - I've been looking at that one. Their ad states that the remote is not included. Most of what I read claim that the 80's era C-J's were the "classic" tube sound. Would you characterize it's sound as firmly in the tube camp? I know that C-J makes fine equipment, so that's not a concern.
@mofojo - Budget is around $2,000, and I will using a solid-state amp. Either the Hafler or Aragon.
@jasonbourne71 - I was hoping that you would chime in as this topic is in your wheelhouse. I will keep those in mind, particularly the Audio Research SP6.
@immatthewj - I seem to have a gut feeling that Cary would be a great option for me. The SLP 98L gets a lot of good reviews and one is available for $2,000. I'm not sure that I would like the exposed tubes. I just read something from a old Audiogon post describing the SLP-70 as having a warm, old school tube sound. Hmmm
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Conrad-Johnson PV 5, PV 10, PV 11, or other
Audible Illusions Modulus L3 or M3
Cary SLP-70
VAC Standard LE
Joule Electra LA-150 (in spite of the fact that they are out of business)
Audio Research (although I can’t decipher which model to consider - LS7, LS17, LS25?)
I’d say that over all I have been generally happy with the Cary products I have owned. I’ve ran a Cary SLP 90 that was modded and also a Cary SLP 05 but I have no experience with the SLP 70. For your budget, I bet you could almost get into a preowned Cary SLP 98, and I’ve read quite a few good things about the sound of that preamp.
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I also have a Conrad Johnson PV3 awaiting set up, along with a Dynaco PAS3 modded by DKL Labs. I consider both to be excellent sounding tube preamps!
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Audio Research SP6. I have one that I bought along with a D75 amp. William Johnson claimed that this was the preamp he really wanted to make after his esteemed SP3. The Audio Critic thought the SP6 had possibly the best phono stage of all their reviewed preamps!
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What’s your budget? I have found that tube preamp with ss can be a very good combo. Best of both worlds kinda.
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I just traded a conrad-johnson PV-14L tube preamp to The Music Room. For the money, I think it's excellent. It has a remote and theatre pass through if that matters. Takes two tubes that last a long time unlike some of the newer c-j preamps.
I used it with a Coda solid state amp.
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