If a man is standing in the corner muttering to himself, do you engage him or walk away?
You talking about that fella with the Tara Labs thread?
Wilson Audio Haters
I've always wondered why there are so many people out there, that more than any other speaker manufacturer, really hate the Wilson line. I own Maxx 2's and also a pair of Watt Puppys. They are IMHO quite wonderful.
Why does Wilson get so much thrashing?
429 responses Add your response
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I was able to listen to a set of Sasha Series 2 and also a set of Alexx speakers today. I personally thought the Sasha's were better. I was picking up a little hum on the Alexx speakers that I didn't notice on the SS2's. The 2 systems were not identical so there could have been some other factor that was causing the noise, however, I still liked the all around feel and look of the Sasha's more. There were a few bass notes that I noticed on the Alexx over the Sasha, I think due to the 2 different size woofers. But overall I enjoyed the Sasha's listening experience more. If I could take home a set today regardless of price it would be a set of Sasha Series 2's. As a note I'm still pretty new to the Audiophile program so my input might not be warranted to a full scale reviewer. |
And stil there is a lot of audioblindness. It is not black&white. Audio is all about sound and how you can reveal the emotion the music possesses. This only can be reached when a system owns all the different parts which can be there to reveal all the different parts which are needed to show the emotion. Trial and error systems always show that they are incomplete. We will use presentations to explain this and show it as well. This is how we work, always based on shootouts and comparison. We even can use different songs to explain each part of Tru-Fi. This makes it more easy to understand. We did it with many of our clients. Sound has nothing to do with personal taste. You want music to sound as it sounds in real. That is the only thing what is important. For example: almost all 2D systems build voices and instruments on the same line. But in real there is a lot of depth and space between them. This makes it very easy to understand that 2D sound is not natural. Most systems are not able to create diversity in sound. And again it is very easy to let people hear a system without diversity and with diversity. It makes people become aware how important diversity is en that this is needed to experience the emotion of the music. Like voices and instruments are very direct and small in demension. We call this intimate sound. We will use students of the conservatory to show how small and direct voices and instruments are. And what intimate does means and does with your emotion. And we also want to use them to show what diversity in sound means and does with your emotion. Tru-Fi is all about how voices and instruments sounds in real. This has northing to do with personal taste. We think and we believe that audio is all about a personal taste. This is how some people told us. And we believe that this is the truth. But when we ask people different questions about voices and instruments in real they have no idea how it sounds. Tell me how do you want to create an audio system when you don’t know this. This explains how silly it is and that trial and error never will create an audio system what comes even a little close to how it should sound. When people will become aware that sound owns different properties and togheter they build the sound and stage what we hear. They will understand that it is not about personal taste. That it is about the truth, real live music. |
@jmcgrogan2 @bo1972 , I WISH I could afford 1980 gear!!! That’d be terrific!!! Who needs a audio system to satisfy them? Bo, your comedy is all the entertainment anyone needs to feel satisfied! You provide zero substance, but your material is hilarious! You really should look into writing a nice book on audio.......to be sold in to fiction section of course, with lots of 3-D pictures. Hahaha! Keep enlightening all of us with your wealth of knowledge your Imperial Grand Wizard!!! ;^) |
D.A.R.T. is the only company in HI-FI that offers the Wilson hater or other audiophiles the ability to truly decouple listener from room induced resonance issues that plague all lesser systems mostly causing the 2 D effect. This nasty R.I.R.I. that plagues all listeners in all rooms is greatly reduced by addition of D.A.R.T. audiophile isolation. Our new improve Chromium-Molybdenum ball hitch fastened to our proprietary tech tone-wood spiked chair greatly reduces the destructive listener seating fatigue or LSF that was problematic with early D.A.R.T. offerings. Not any more!! we as audiophiles spend much money and effort on reducing unwanted resonances in our rooms and components why not take the next logical step and isolate listener? We at D.A.R.T. have surrounded ourselves with best designers ever to have existed in the total of human existence why not take advantage of this and fully isolate your body from room? enter code IAMNOTSOSMART to recieve 110% discounts off full retail pricing for more -DARTaudiophiledecoupling at CompuServe.com |
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The problem in audio is that most products in each price range are rather poor. They will never make any person happy. Soon we will discuss Tru-Fi with manufacturers. Because audio is a market what decreases. We want to reach more people who are now not interested in audio. When we visit shows, shops, distributers and new clients we see that the level of most audio systems will never create a satisfied feeling. You cannot go on this way. It will have a negative influence on audio in the comming years. We want a higher level for all people all over the world. What I said; it is not about me. We want to give people the experience to feel the emotion of music. We are a team of audio fanatics who are all perfectionists and only go for the best. Maybe it is my idea, but I am just one person of the whole team. I use the experience and knowledge of different people who are just as fanatic as I am. Togheter we can create new products and a superior level in sound&vision. We all have the same goal; to become the best company in sound&vision in the world. This is not only selling products, but also a lot of research and doing tests. The team of our company gives me the freedom to focus even more on new products and qualtiy. It is a addiction for me to improve sound&vison over and over again. Each single person has his own task and part of our company. I never loved my job so much as this moment. Because the time I spend in research and test created a superior level in bith sound&vision. I still want to improve it time after time. This is what I love. My team gives me this freedom. I am thankful to do it togheter with all these unique people. |
Geez Bo. Sigh. Telling everyone else that they are audio neanderthals and that the only systems that create accurate depth and "emotion" are those of your design is a good bit over the edge. Get a grip. Was not your mental database of what you consider to be superior components formed by trial and error? When will all of your promises to "unveil" the validation of your magical talents through viable and credible channels actually come to fruition? Dave |
@ct0517 ; hahahahahahahha, mannnnn you have a nice 2D system. I auditoned many of the products you own. I can garantee you 100% and I invite you to make a shootout with your products against superior products in their price range. They products you chose are by far not the best in their price range. Maybe you are an amature, I can garantee you could have created a superior level for the money you spend. B&W 800 is also a 2D loudspeaker. No one can change that, and you can't either :) |
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My clients understand now how extreme limited most people are in audio. All the reactions are all the same. They all laugh about 2D sound and calll it inferior or standard audio. They are able now to correct the people in audio shops. Their systems outperform all the inferior trial and error systems in shops. These days we laugh about it, it is insane that people ask 275.000 euro for a hifi stereo system with a stage of 1 metre. They even called it highend. When we asked a few simple questions they were not able to answer it. Most systems have no foundation. That is why over 99% of all systems are 2D. Beside this the level of emotion is very poor as well. Each single person will never be satisfied with a 2D system after time. All the discussions I had with people who owned and paid a lot of money on audio were the same. They were honest and had the gutts to speak free and said: I was never really happy with the systems I own. There are also people who will defend their system and choices till they die. These are the people who limit themselves. Inside they know they are not happy. We cannot help people who don’t want to be informed. The people who reacted the most overhere in the last week, have budget systems they think it is stuning. Okay you are amatures, but you write overhere if you know it all. I bet you have not done thousands of test in many price ranges just as me. Trial and error is an amature way of creating an audio system. I understand thay you work like this, but it always will be extremely ineffective. For those I will proof it with all my love :) I will send the proof especially for these people. I can proof and garantee (wanna bet on money?......please do:) that their choices are done by trial and error. Beside this they own many products which have superior competitors in their price range. |
The Pl-500 is created this way because they wanted to build a loudspeaker what used the best configuration. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=24vv7fsA3NY When you audition them you will understand why they used it. The load of the low frequency are separated over 4 drivers. I never audioned this level in authority in this price range. The mid frequency are also separated over 2 drivers. Again it creates a new level of physical image we never auditioned in this price before. Ofcourse there are better speakers, but they will cost a lot more. We always focus on what is the highest level you can create in each price range. For all the trail and error people overhere I will proof that what I wrote is 100% True. I am looking forward to all the reactions.......:) |
People don't understand what a subwoofer does, when you read the reactions overhere it is stil clear that people have no idea. Stealth Low frequency will always create a superior sound quality than any stereo system without it. Stealth Low Frequency showed; - stage became wider and deeper - instruments and voices becomes more tanbible. - at very low volums you have a much deeper freq response. - In the mid freq the sound becomes richer and shows more diversity - the energy of instruments come more apparent of the loudspeakers. When you play with a system with big speakers which can reach 20hz. You still need to play at high level to get this low. All the test with huge speakersystems showed that at very low volume level you missed the drive. Stealth Low Frequency also goes deep with even very low volume. - new people who auditoned Stealth Low Frequency for the first time, often use the word Reference level. It goes so much further than what is possible with just loudspeakers. I have many stereo clients who never used a subwoofer for stereo use before. Just like me. When a subwoofer by S.A.P. and Stealth Low freqency is uses it creates a new level in integration but also in a higher level of the low frequency of the whole system. The accuracy of Stealth Low Frequency makes it easy to use subwoofers till 120-140hz. This is also something people don't know. When you connect a subwoofer without S.A.P. you go to an inferior level of timing. This is the level you all know. You all judge based on this information. Again this is audio 1980 thinking. The Pl-500 creates a stunning level in low frequency without a subwoofer. But when you bring in the subwoofer by S.A.P. the people their faces says it all. The level in sound quality goes to an even higher level. They all understood after the demo how important the subwoofer becomes based on Stealth Low Freq. This only can be reached when you get the subwoofer in phase. And also the exact location were it has been put. Without roomcorrection a subwoofer is useless. The roomcorrection systems use in subwoofer are able to limit the acoustic problems. But there is a huge but....... It don't places it in phase and the right position. This is the level you all know. This level is in my world 100% unacceptable in result. I understand the reactions. But they are based on the fact that you still think in 1980 knowledge and insight. |
I own 2.5 way speakers which are very simple to drive and I agree that full range speakers may go lower but are extremely difficult to drive, there is no shortage of LF at my listening room , Sometimes I miss my sub once watching action movies but for music listening adding a sub to my system is absolutely unnecessary. |
To sub or not to sub, that is the question. Whether it is nobler on the ear to suffer the rise and fall of room modes or by equalizing, end them..... The further down the octaves you go the more problems you need to solve. 2-way speakers aren't better, they are simpler. It is usually much easier to get very good sound out of a limited bandwidth speaker than a true full-range and/or speaker plus sub. Where the trade-offs are ideal is up to the listener, the human being who has to trade off living space, decorations, and even friends and a chance of finding true-love in exchange for unlimited bottom end in their music. Two advantages subs have is placement, and equalization. You can hunt for the best place to put a subwoofer, but your main speakers are usually limited by where you want to sit. Also, by using an EQ that only sits in the way of the subwoofer you eliminate a lot of contamination in the mains. I think $200K for a subwoofer is absolutely ridiculous. IMHO what makes a subwoofer great for most consumers is how good it's integration features are. Right now JL leads the pack. However with skill and experience you can use a far less expensive sub with outboard EQ's and get as good of a performance. I don't think there's any 1 right answer about what any given listener should do. I just wanted to point out, there's challenges either way. Best, E |
I didn’t mean say you can’t use 8 inch woofers - just that they are inadequate to properly do the highest end true full range. I guess I should have added - at realistic volume levels! Of course the limited excursion of 8 inch can be used down to 20Hz but you won’t get much useful SPL out of it....as it needs to move linearly for several inches to have any meaningful output. Agreed that 8 of 8 inch woofers is probably equivalent 2 x 15 in area but still won't be as good at powe handling or large excursions (won't get as high SPL) |
Many Full Range capable speakers are set up in rooms that do not support 20 hz. Meaning...... they can’t hit the notes or the notes are way too low in DB for the room. This could be for a number of reasons; the room space itself, and/or the constraints in how the owner is allowed to place the speakers in the room; the amp, etc... The speaker manufacturers know this. It’s a very old story. They have a choice to make. They can EQ their main full range model, with woofers to handle EQ; or they can leave well enough alone, and bring out a new speaker - the subwoofer - to add to the bottom line both financially, and music wise. The subwoofers provide the additional benefits of allowing optional placements to fit bass into the room better with the main speakers. .... unless you’re Bo1972, whose business model we have seen, is to place the subwoofer beside the main full range speaker butted up against the wall. Then EQ the hell out of it. And hey ...why not.... For the average person whose gear - no matter what gear - needs to placed along the front wall, this business model works out. But put that same person in a room where the speakers are placed, and amp’ed as designed; and that person, depending on how audio crazed he/she is after hearing; will be looking for a new place and/or spouse. How far do you want audiophilia nervosa to take you? If you want to see how well your rig does without having to listen to test tones. Send this Phill Collins "In the Air Tonight", Bass TEST, through your DAC on your rig. Click on the link. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D0U5qunTUJk |
With respect to the Onkyo 5509. I can concur with Bo that this is a great DSP for HT systems - it worked great in my 7.1 setup. When you have 7 speakers in one room you definitely need a clever DSP with something like Audyssey XT32 or other room EQ software. I am completely sold on that concept. The room is a huge problem and getting a balanced totally clear clean sound is a huge challenge with so many speakers creating LF modes and reflections everywhere. The 5509 with the calibration microphone fixes everything in less than 20 minutes - brilliant. That said, I prefer two channel music listening without any DSP at all. Although the Audyssey XT32 room correction sounds very good - to me pure two channel still has the edge but it might be just my room (in another less favourable room perhaps DSP two channel might have the edge) |
With small 8" woofers obviously you need a subwoofer. 2 x 8 inch does not even equate to a 12 inch. Furthermore small voice coils and less Xmax and poor linearity and poor heat handling make small woofers totally inadequate for ultra LF - so except for pleasing aesthetics of a narrow speaker this size woofer really is still around the mid point of highest end - it can sound excellent but is still short of true full range. I have 15 inch woofers on my mains now and I don’t feel need for the 15 inch sub anymore - it doesn’t add anything - except for movies. When I had 12 inch woofers the subwoofer was actually necessary. |
Itzhak1969 you couldn't be more wrong! Pretty much all speakers benefit from a properly placed and integrated sub. And 4 8" drivers is not an overwhelming amount/size. Do you understand what the excursion would be for a 20hz note??!! And then they may be required to do a 400hz note at the same time. |
Stealth Low Frequency proves stereo without a subwoofer is of a lower quality. These days I seldom sell stereo without a subwoofer. Because when people audition it with or without the subwoofer, you would be a fool not to use it. Tru-Fi and Stealth Low Frequency makes subwoofers so much more effective and important. It is insane what the level is of a subwoofer created by trial and error. When we visit a show or shop the people who demo it are often negative themselves. I have to admit that without Stealth Low Frequency I would never want to use a subwoofer for stereo use either. In that way I understand the 1980 way of thinking! |
Stealth Low Frecquency will become the new reference in low frequency. I hated subwoofers for stereo use untill 2010. When I was able to put the loudspeakers and subwoofer in phase and were it is located my thoughts about subwoofers totally changed. In 2005 I had ideas how subwoofers would be working for stereo use. But I thought it would never be possible. Stealth Low Frequency goes even a lot further. It brings the energy exactly where it is at the recording. Stealth Low Frequency showed that you can use subwoofer a lot further. But people think in 1980 and will stop at 50,60,70 or maybe 80hz. Stealth Low Frequency also showed that Rel and Velodyne subwoofers are a lot slower than the Monitor Audio subwoofers. The response and timing is the essential part of subwoofers. With Stealth Low Frequency I can proof (it is all about proof :) that it is possible to create a higher level in quality and speed with Monitor Audio subwoofers. Again this is based on the differences in properties and DNA. They make the differences, not a name or brand. Tru-Fi gives you full access to all the qualities of the subwoofer. The 1980 silly trial and error way of thinking will always use a very limited part of the full potential. And you cannot change that. You are not able to think in properties. You always need to go back to think in trial and error. This will limit you in quality until you die. |
And still people judge on products............this is audio 1980. AUDIO IS ALL ABOUT SOUND. The 5509 is only used for the DNA and the measurement. We stripped it and it is modified with other parts of over 3000 euro. It is about creating a new level of pre amp what outperfroms anything regarding price. You all still think at the level of a child. Sound is based on properties and we create sound by properties. This brings you so much closer to the truth than any stuppid 1980 way of trail and error. I am galaxies away from the rest. I owned 5 different Pass Labs monos and poweramps. And I owned the XP-20 for over 2 years of time. The 5509 without modifications and S.A.P.-measurement outperformed the XP-20 on all parts with each single Pass labs power amp. But now in 2017 we are galaxies away from that. Because we created many new things to improve the sound and realism. As we improved S.A.P-measurement. I can improve sound a few times each month. The level of new thoughts in my head is of a speed no one can reach. It will make any pre amp like a cheap inferior chinese dicky toy. And people still focus on brands and are extremely limited in thinking about audio. Your insight creates what I call; AUDIOBLINDNESS. Tru-Fi will proof how blind you were and that your inferior way of using trial and error is one big laugh! We will help all the music lovers who are able to look further, for those who will stay blind (or deaf) I would say; enjoy your audio system created by your own trail and error! |
itzhak1969,
Cables are mostly snake oil and somewhat woodoo market. All You need is a nice (preferrably) monocrystal silver cabling with nice Teflon cover (from a real manufacture who has the license). Also a very big influence is in the the connectors that most $$$$$$ brands seem to forget. These must be also a solid very high content copper or better a pure silver because silver is just a better conductive material. As far if you don`t mess your cables with PC or other cables you don`t need shielding. In my experience unsealded sounds a bit better. |
Long live our big leader and pathfinder Bo! I use the Onkyo PR-SC5509 these days as a pre amp. With Audyssey Volume and EQ you can reveal details which are not there even with the best highend pre amp. I give you a few examples. Compared to the XP-20 you hear word endings on a sss, ttt of th so much more clear than with the XP-20 . Now I need to push this. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eYByo7KPnwo Soooooo........... to all serious audiophiles! 2017 is a yeat of Tru-Fu coming and we all will be blessed and enlihtened. A second coming of our big leader and the mysterious Onkyo DSP. 1. Evey serious audiophile must use Onkyo 5509 as a preamp and procces the signal through it`s messed up DSP to hear it`s artificial 3D surround effects. It`s leading to real 3D sound that will go up to 8m behind the loudspeakers. 2. No room treatment or proper placement needed! All can be compensated through a messed up digital room correction programs. Now I need to push this again. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eYByo7KPnwo |
"It seems that it`s not at all about MA. He has probably fallen in love in some some artifactial DSP surround. I will continue in my next post. " Your comment is perfect adding a sub is no more than addiction to artificial unnecessary extra bass . Or Maybe the amplification doesn’t have enuogh power to drive the MA, maybe the cables need ugrade or the listening room is very big I don’t now .... The MA 500 should handle low frequencies properly without adding sub . |
itzhak1969, Sorry I don`t agree. Even the biggest speakers like Focal Grand EM benefit from properly installed subs. Of course you need a fast sub that matches your mains. Your statement may be somewhat correct if your listening room is very small but again then there are more reflection bass than a real pure bass. Anyway the main topic here seems to be our beloved BO. So I did a quick google on our mighty leader and enlightener Bo. It seems that it`s not at all about MA. He has probably fallen in love in some some artifactial DSP surround. I will continue in my next post. |
