Wilson Audio Haters

Wilson deserve their excellent reputation a lot more than B&W. They tend to have a bit of a resonant bump in the bass (which people love) but apart from that I find it hard to fault them. Wilson tend to use traditional driver materials (pulp paper and damped fabric) and my ears are very sensitive to the horrible coloration from modern ceramic or rigid metal drivers and for that reason Wilson will always be a speaker I would not hesitate to recommend.

I am not at all a fan of Monitor Audio and especially the drivers they use. I have never liked metal or ceramic drivers period. I can hear the coloration these type of drivers add but I do respect that many people can not hear their ringing and internal resonances. Are Wilson made in China like Monitor? I don’t like the poor quality of Chinese products - it is very difficult to get consistent quality from China.

I also don’t like AMT tweeters - they compress way to easily.

Bo1972, you seem to be fixated on 3D soundstage and their curious artifacts from the artificial stereo reproduction. I respect that many audiophiles are fixated on this but for me I am much more interested in accurate timbre and dynamics that replicate real instruments and voices precisely rather than a 3D holographic sideshow or curiosity. I am interested to reproduce what I hear when I listen to live music and not some artificial creation such as Roger Waters Amused to Death.

I do understand and respect where Bo1972 and many other audiophiles are coming from and what they are chasing. However, I don’t think Bo1972 grasps the awful coloration that myself and others are hearing from his favorite impressive 3D type presentations - to me this sideshow is just a curiosity and as impressive as it sounds - it isn’t musical to my ears!

Now I am not claiming Wilson is perfect and neither do I regard Monitor Audio as a total failure - Monitor make great speakers in China and hopefully they can maintain QC which is so difficult (B&W make their top of the line in the U.K. possibly for QC reasons) However, both designs are targeting different listeners who are looking for different qualities. Both have their place and Wilson has a much more illustrious longer track record than Monitor which is a testament to their ability to meet many listeners specific criteria in terms of sound.

@dlcockrum

Not exclusve but correct timbre/musicality/dynamics is more important to me. I respect others have a different view and they may place much more importance on 3D effects.

Our brain processes sound for both directionality and the timbre/musicality/dynamics of the sound itself. The two processes are quite different. One seems to be related to the first arrival or first few cycles of a transient sound and how it hits each ear differently in time/phase, while the other appears to be more related to frequency/harmonic analysis (which clearly must examine the sound over many cycles and follows the tonal variations (such as pitch bend) and decay).

Bo1972,

Your testimonial about yourself is impressive. You are not the first to claim you have discovered the holy grail. None of what you have written demonstrates any understanding of loudspeaker construction and design but I guess your enthusiasm for the products you sell more than makes up for that! 

There has always been a "latest and greatest" and like fall fashions they come with great fanfare and promotion and quietly fade away with next years "new and improved". And then there are products that have survived the test of time. I know what I will choose - like my Gibson Les Paul or my Fender Precision bass or Pearl ref drum kit - knowledgeable buyers keep buying well made products that have proven themselves time and time again with countless buyers! IMHO Wilson falls into the category of time proven.

@bo1972

I note that Monitor Audio use a dampening ring (similar to accuton rubber dots) to help prevent and dampen all the unwanted energy from the ringing of their rigid drivers. My ears are very sensitive to this type of coloration which is why I tend to defend old school pulp paper and damped fabric cones of the type generally preferred by Wilson. An internally damped driver (made of material that is dead and will not vibrate) will not ring like a bell and therefore it will better convey micro detail in music (timbre). So while you are dismissive of decades of engineering and proven track records as outdated, I will continue to enjoy better sound from solid designs using well understood principles that have withstood the test of time.

here is the description of how Monitor Audio reduces unwanted vibration:

"A new innovation in every driver replaces the usual rigid coupling of driver and voice coil with a pliable one. This ‘Dynamic Coupling Filter’ is a nylon ring ingeniously calibrated to be rigid up to the crossover frequency, and to act like a spring above it. In so doing the DCF helps to dampen surplus high frequency energy produced by the driver. It’s also perforated to encourage voice coil cooling and release air pressure from behind the cone for maximum driver efficiency. Result: more natural sound."

Test of time is important. A voice coil runs at over 100 centigrade - how to ensure the consistent elastic properties of that nylon ring as it is "baked" through thousands of heat cycles and also ages? No doubt Monitor have looked at this, however, time will tell. Just like Ferrofluid dries up - how robust and for how many years and how consistently can a chosen design platform perform?

Erik,

Heavy advertising is true for most of the big names in hi-fi gear - Wilson is just normal. Very few companies refuse to advertise (ATC for example). For sure if you don’t advertise in magazines then you will not be reviewed as often and sales are by word of mouth. After all the audio rags are in business to make a profit by promoting stuff. Few companies have products that are so good that they don't need to run ads and even those that don't run ads need to demo their latest products at the big Audio product shows (which is self promotion).

+1 gpgr4blu

Douglas,

Darwin clearly has it mostly right. However there is more to it. I can’t explain here but in essence Darwin does explain much of what we see however there are surprising things we have only recently leaned about with viruses and DNA causing DNA to jump species. The extra element goes a long way in addressing the obvious short comings of Darwin.

just like Newtons laws worked well for most cases, Einstein fleshed out the theory further. I am not sure who will be credited with new evolutionary theories that extend Darwinism but I came up with novel concepts about 40 years ago to flesh out Darwinism and so far my hypotheses have been correct!

Ok back to Wilson. I like the Sasha’s a lot - not that they are the best speakers in the world but they are excellent hi-end speakers.

They are are much better than B&W IMHO! Sasha’s have few faults whereas B&W make some big fundamental errors as far as I am concerned.

And as for the latest and greatest - Wilson have seen countless latest and greatest fancy ceramic beryllium stuff come and go and no doubt there will be many more soon to be "has been" speakers promoted here - meanwhile Wilson will survive!

Bo has simply discovered the weird directivity effects of ribbons. Nothing new about that. A ribbon tweeter is much too tall for the frequencies it is transmitting. This means you get weird flanger comb filter type effects - some frequencies totally cancel out while others reinforce. This is the 3D he has discovered. It is laughable really because this is an artifact. It isnt high fidelity at all. It really messes with the sound and your perception of where it is coming from as a function of frequency. Some frequencies will come from ceiling and some from only side walls and others from the speakers. Basically a total mess if you are a purist and seek high fidelity. But great if you like weird SFX and point sources to become larger than they should.

You also get weird artifacts with an Appolito design. He may have discovered this also. Nothing he has discovered has not been known for already 30 years. However he thinks he is on to something new because most speaker companies shun these type designs that give inconsistent 3D artifacts in favor of accuracy and high fidelity.

@bo1972

You just keep showing your ignorance when you criticize my gear. Just as you look ignorant dismissing Wilson. Take a good look at those tweeters on your favorite spurious artifact producing speakers - too tall for the job - technically inadequate for the job. You like spurious artifacts that give you your 3D circus performance. No doubt it is impressive. No doubt many audiophiles crave this kind of show. Others have different needs like accuracy, correct timbre, balance and ability to play at realistic sound levels without ultra low levels of distortion. Sorry but 3D SFX is not what I am looking for in audio.

@bo1972 

I looked at the stereophile article and I am entirely correct. The folded ribbon AMT style tweeter is indeed too large for the high frequencies it is producing.  Although not an Appolito design for this particular model, MA have used this style frequently.

In short, none of what you have said or alluded too (including insults of other people's systems/approach, or their manliness and your exclusivity to truth) indicate anything other than you are a narrow minded shrill for MA.

@erik_squires

I am sure you are right that AMT can be built to avoid compression however doesn’t this result in a transducer that is too large a diaphragm for the frequencies they transmit?

In short: Eliminate the compression means you begin to have directivity problems.

Rule of thumb is that the diaphragm should be no bigger than 1/2 the wavelength or you start getting beaming at that frequency and for even higher frequencies (shorter wavelengths) you get off axis lobing.

Lobong creates a spurious 3D effect where certain sounds come from the ceiling and some from the side walls depending on the frequency. An overly tall tweeter will have serious lobing in higher frequencies in the vertical axis but less so horizontally - it is the weird vertical response that gives spurious 3D effects while listening to music with a variety of frequencies - nothing to do with the source and everything to do with bad design and poor implementation.

Technical details explaining why you get spurious 3D effects with this design:

Please refer to the article and charts at this link

http://www.acousticfrontiers.com/20131129controlled-directivity-speakers-open-up-your-acoustic-treat...

The AMT folded ribbon driver in the PL 200 is 3 inches tall. At 6000 Hz it has a KA of 5 in the vertical and at 12000 Hz it has a KA of 10. These frequencies are within the important musical range. You can see on the polar plots how serious of a problem these speakers have in the vertical axis.

@erik_squires

Sorry but you are misinformed - single drivers can and do beam and ALSO can have lobes - just not as common a problem as not many folks use 3 inch tweeters for 3.4KHz and above range! You are absolutely correct that lobing occurs more commonly with multiple drivers and panels. It is rarer in most modern speakers because designers do not often make mistakes like MA has done.

I do not discount any of the designs such as AMT, Ribbons, horns or panels - all can sound great and have pros and cons.

However, when an amateur tells everyone incessantly that he has the found the holy grail in speakers I feel compelled to point out the very obvious deficiencies and false 3D artifacts coming from said design. It is common audiofoolery to promote weird designs that sound different and have artifacts because they do sound impressive or very different - good if you like that kind of thing but NOT the holy grail in high end accuracy - in fact far from it!!!!

@erik_squires 

"your writing confuses beaming with lobing and compression"

No it does not. I am just talking about trade-offs between several related factors.

One way to solve compression problems from a driver with inadequate SPL or not enough linear dynamic range from the drive motor is to employ a larger diaphragm - this is why folded ribbons are larger than dome tweeters because they don't have as good linearity at higher SPL. The downside of a larger diaphragm is initially beaming (at lower frequencies) and eventually lobing at much higher frequencies. 

Beaming is related to lobing in that the initial beam is actually one lobe that is directly forward of the driver and this eventually becomes narrower and narrower as frequency increases. Also additional side lobes appear as frequency increases. This is all interrelated to the problem of using to large a transducer or diaphragm.

@ricred1

Your PL500 must sound fantastic. My comments above with regard to MA design are primarily directed at Bo who is a shill for MA on a thread about Wilson. The design choices or trade offs MA have made have clearly resulted in a world class speaker. I just deliberately disagree when Bo claims MA have discovered some new 3D paradigm in audio that totally trashes everything else. I just wanted to point out that Bo's 3D discovery while desirable, impressive and enjoyable - might not be what every audiophile or speaker designer is striving for. Simply put - there are tradeoffs in every design. Horses for Courses. There isn't one speaker that is totally perfect at everything but there probably is an ideal speaker for each audiophile - one that suits listening preferences, space and aesthetics...

With small 8" woofers obviously you need a subwoofer. 2 x 8 inch does not even equate to a 12 inch. Furthermore small voice coils and less Xmax and poor linearity and poor heat handling make small woofers totally inadequate for ultra LF - so except for pleasing aesthetics of a narrow speaker this size woofer really is still around the mid point of highest end - it can sound excellent but is still short of true full range.

I have 15 inch woofers on my mains now and I don’t feel need for the 15 inch sub anymore - it doesn’t add anything - except for movies. When I had 12 inch woofers the subwoofer was actually necessary.

With respect to the Onkyo 5509. I can concur with Bo that this is a great DSP for HT systems - it worked great in my 7.1 setup. When you have 7 speakers in one room you definitely need a clever DSP with something like Audyssey XT32 or other room EQ software. I am completely sold on that concept. The room is a huge problem and getting a balanced totally clear clean sound is a huge challenge with so many speakers creating LF modes and reflections everywhere. The 5509 with the calibration microphone fixes everything in less than 20 minutes - brilliant.

That said, I prefer two channel music listening without any DSP at all. Although the Audyssey XT32 room correction sounds very good - to me pure two channel still has the edge but it might be just my room (in another less favourable room perhaps DSP two channel might have the edge)

I didn’t mean say you can’t use 8 inch woofers - just that they are inadequate to properly do the highest end true full range. I guess I should have added - at realistic volume levels! Of course the limited excursion of 8 inch can be used down to 20Hz but you won’t get much useful SPL out of it....as it needs to move linearly for several inches to have any meaningful output.

Agreed that 8 of 8 inch woofers is probably equivalent 2 x 15 in area but still won't be as good at powe handling or large excursions (won't get as high SPL)

@veroman  

LOL. I didn't comment when Doug brought up religion and Darwin and then he immediately proceeded to denigrate me for responding on the very topic of digression he raised. I think he had a bad day. I have those too.

@clearthink = @bo1972 = Bobby Kingma

Note how Clearthink chimes in on this thread and stated:

Quote:
With your permission, if I may, please kindly allow me to elucidate these matters regarding Bo, who is a visionary and trailblazer in the world of hi-fi.

How, you may ask, do I have anything to contribute to this detailed discussion? I am a client of Bo. By client I mean that I am not a customer. It is much the same as when you visit a physician or a lawyer. The wise man does not instruct the professional how to treat his ills! He entrusts the outcome with the professional of his choosing. Otherwise a man could treat or represent himself.

Music is all about emotion. When I felt that my music reproduction system and associated components and installation was failing to deliver proper emotion to me I decided to seek Bo for consultation. Bo was very generous with his time! He showed me how Tru-Fi works. It can be demonstrated to every listener that Tru-Fi works by applying properties to the reproduction of music. By proper application of these properties, which sometimes requires adjustments to within .5 mm, Tru-Fi can be achieved and all will agree that this is how hi-fi should be sold. Not all components are capable of Tru-Fi. Because Bo has a photographic memory as applied to sound reproduction, Bo can identify those components that deliver 3D sound! Most components deliver only 1D or 2D sound! This Bo can demonstrate.

Bo can evaluate your 1D or 2D music reproduction system and prescribe a solution using components that are 3D and can deliver Tru-Fi. These are improvements all can hear because music is about emotion and all can feel the emotion in reproduced music once Bo has demonstrated Tru-Fi to you. He can do this in a shootout as he has done many times and proven to all who listen.

Throughout the course of Human History visionaries and trailblazers have been laughed at, minimalized, derided, ridiculed and chided. Bo knows this! He is being generous by contributing here to share his knowledge about Tru-Fi and the way it can be applied using properties to music reproduction systems and installations. He has demonstrated to many manufacturers, distributors and designers of components used in music reproduction systems the ways of Tru-Fi and properties and I suspect that you will see some major manufacturers adopt Tru-Fi methods, techniques, standards and practices as time moves forward. This is because all who hear Tru-Fi exclaim for the first time they are hearing the emotion in music, which is what music is all about.

Those of you here who are dubious about Bo have never heard Tru-Fi and have not heard 3D sound in their music reproduction systems. Once you have heard Tru-Fi, you will realize that all other approaches to the design, assembly, fabrication, installation and specifying of music reproduction systems is flawed. Only Tru-Fi can deliver the emotion in music, which is what music is all about. There is no point to music reproduction systems if there is no emotion.

I hope Bo will forgive me speaking on his behalf here.

Unquote

It is time for Bobby to create another user account to be a shill for TruFi as his Clearthink account has been revealed to be him!!!!

@vassils

Agree about the wild claims by Bo. However, there are many here who claim to hear the horns of Valhalla with all manner of ridiculous tweaks. Many claim that audio equipment does NOT work properly until you find the “right” matching cable or “right” fuse or power cord and that the only way to get it close to right is to keep swapping out cables randomly until something takes your fancy. Of course, you can never get the set up completely right as the permutations are endless - so apparently you are just to keep on tweaking forever. The fact that equipment is supposed to be designed to work properly with any suitable cable or fuse and should be expected to work properly if equipment is of high enough quality; these facts are somehow lost on these folks. This allows the virtues to be lauded of all manner of finicky and completely unreliable gear.