Will increasing speaker cable AWG make a difference in sound quality?

Buy 2 gauges of the same wire and same connectors (or bare) and have fun answering your own question.  I did…bought Kimber Kable 8TC and 12TC.  On my system I could hear a definite all around improvement in the larger gauge 12TC.  Fuller sound, improved bass, deeper stage, highs not so much improved which was good thing.  Since moved on….higher quality wire such as silver plated OCC copper, better construction geometry, connectors made more of an impact than wire gauge size for me.  

The New Duelund Wire thread, gives a description of an individual perception of 10 AWG,  compared to a Older Spec' 12 and 16 AWG.

The user of the New Thicker gauge wire, is sharing their discoveries to date. 

Crayola gives degrees?

I don’t think Neson Pass tested asbestos wires but probably not the best of ideas anyway.

Do you have any idea how good Nelson’s ears must have been back then?

Per Nelson Pass

Who am I to dispute the feelings of audiophiles who, evaluating any cable in the context of program source, amplifier, speaker, and listening room, decide they can hear the difference? A few guidelines have emerged here, but the final judgment belongs to the user. All the special cables mentioned worked well on the test bench and, given the assumption that series impedance should be minimized, all of them work better than 16 gauge wire. If, like many audiophiles, you have spent a small (or large) fortune on your hi-fi system, money spent for high quality cables and connectors is a reasonable investment.

@danager 

Dude, that information is 43 years old. The US didn’t ban new asbestos building products for another 9 years after that article was written. We have learned much since then.

@unfairlane We would say you were terminal and sent you on your way.

@mclinnguy and Tung-Sol is an American Company with plants in Russia. Not sure what your point is about Zavfino.  HP built computers in their garage. Eric Buell built motorcycles in an airport hanger in Kenosha WI. 

It is stupid to spend the kids 529 plan on cables.

I do own Zavfino cables and love them but they are on the reasonable end of the spectrum. I also own Bluejeans cable, Nordost, DH labs and con not tell one from the other. 

Per Nelson Pass

https://www.passlabs.com/technical_article/speaker-cables-science-or-snake-oil/

I`m glad none of you are my docktor. Something between scaring and sad to see the answers given, but with one exeption, Carlsbad:

carlsbad

1,551 posts

03-13-2023 at 01:23pm 

generally yes. Large wire size is required for the high current that flows for small fractions of a second during dynamic changes or big bass notes. a mellow song will sound the same with both but, just like in power cables, there are dynamic times when higher current flows, even if just for a picosecond.  The simplistic calculations like others are doing in this thread are wrong.  It is the google level of understanding physics.  I have a physics degree from UofC. "

This is the thruth. He only needs to add that current flows much like water, there will be a big difference between one big conductor versus many tiny ones. Meaning solid core, fun begins at 9awg.

 I sometimes wonder if someone in this dirty industry knows about this. Mybe, but they will off course keep their mouth shut, there is no money in this. 

I get very noticable changes. Heavier guage less detail more umph. Lighter guage the oposite. The key obviously is to find the best mix. This is all room dependable as well.

Yes! To my surprise, I was running Monoprice 4/12 to my LaScala lls & was happy until I went with Furutech Flagship OCC HIFI Speaker Cable Fever grade, which is 2/12 wire. I noticed a sense of clarity & openness. Highly recommend.

@thespeakerdude

"Never heard of Zavfino before today, and I see many mentioning it. A company with USA in their name, apparently based out of little farmhouse in the middle of no where in Canada, and made somewhere in the world. Definitely leveraging the power of the internet and outsourcing."

Actually, if you want to know the truth this "little farmhouse" is world class- check out the construction of the Silver Dart power and tell me they don’t have skills

"Zavfino - THE NEXT REVOLUTION IN ANALOGUE"

At Zavfino we have been engineering cables, components and accessories for some of the biggest names in the Hi‐Fi industry for over 15 years. For the past 9 years we have been supplying products under our own brand names – 1877Phono and Zavfino, to distributors, dealers and manufacturers worldwide. Our Pure Silver and OCC copper tonearm wiring kits are used by some of the leading tonearm manufacturers. They are also the #1 choice for rewiring vintage Japanese tonearms.

Our extensive line of cables, components and accessories are 100% engineered, designed and assembled in-house, utilizing enameled Pure Silver, Japanese OCC copper, and a wide range of dielectrics such as Teflon, FEP, PTFE, and HPE, and are newest breakthrough Graphene LDP all of which are sourced from the USA, Germany and Japan. We have extensive experience in contract engineering and fabricating turntables and components since 2004, and in 2015, proudly introduced our first turntable line—the ZV5 Series. The ZV5 is paired with our knife edge Ashena Series Tonearms in aluminum and carbon. A labour of love, the ZV5 uses a classic shape with a modern engineering twist and limited edition custom hand painted and pinstriped ‘Oldskool’ designs. Powered by an independent motor and speed regulator, we have truly built a table for the discerning analogue connoisseur.

Our Aeshna Tonearms come standard on all of our tables and are 100% manufactured, wired, assembled and tested in‐house by our own technicians. Although we would like to take full credit for its complete design, we actually sought out and joint ventured with a UK based tonearm designer/engineer/legend having over 25 years of designing and manufacturing cutting‐edge tonearms; with fhis “the right way, or hit the highway” approach. The outcome is and amazing arm that we can proudly pair with our components.

At Zavfino we are committed to offering world class products to dedicated audiophiles. We don’t believe in offering misleading specifications for a quick dollar, and we only use the best materials on the market for all our projects. We have many more great products coming so please check our site regularly for our newest innovations.

Zavfino’s H-Wound™ + Zero Strand Loss:

Drawing on more than 18 years of manufacturing experience, Zavfino has developed a remarkable new technique for twisting stranded wire tightly around a central solid-core conductor. An electrical phenomenon commonly known as the “skin effect” occurs when electrons move through any solid core conductor. Higher frequencies travel along the outside (the skin) of the conductor faster than midrange and lower echelon frequencies. This results in smeared PRaT, muddled instrumental timbres, and an unnatural sound. Zavfino’s new H-Wound™ manufacturing technique negates the skin effect. Originally developed by OEMs Siemens and Klangfilm, Zavfino uses a customized transformer wire-stranding machine. We further modified the gears in this machinery to create windings at a slower RPM ratio with a much tighter pitch. This patented manufacturing process enables us to twist the wiring at the tightest pitch possible without overlapping the wire strands. Most wire-stranding machines can only fabricate windings up to a maximum of 300 twists per meter. Setting the bar far higher, Zavfino’s patented H-Wound™ cable winding machine creates a pitch rate of 14,000 to 16,000 twists per meter; which is unmatched by any other audiophile cable maker. Zavfino’s new Zero Strand Loss™ manufacturing technique protects the bundled conductors from being damaged during stripping and termination. By ensuring that each core has zero chipped, cut, or mangled strands, we can guarantee that each insulated core is 100% identical. For audiophiles, the sonic results of tighter windings and Zero Strand Loss™ conductors are cables with quieter backgrounds, remarkable timbral accuracy, lifelike PRaT, jaw dropping mid-range resolution, and superior low frequency extension. Our new H-Wound™ stranding technology allows us to protect the delicate electrical signal being transferred through our cables. Combined with Zavfino’s state of the art manufacturing techniques, our precision matched OCC Copper (Cu) and Silver (Ag) conductors used in the Silver Dart™ A/C power cord bring an unequalled purity and honesty to all forms of music. The results are previously unheard details, finesse, and accuracy across the frequency spectrum.

What is ZGRAPh-LDPTM..GRAPHENE.?
Zavfino is the first audiophile cable OEM to integrate graphene insulation into high-end A/C power cables as a dielectric shield. After more than two years in development with a leading American graphene polymer research company, we’re proud to unveil our new proprietary ZGRAPh-LDPTM conductive shielding/dielectric, first used within our Silver DartTM OCC A/C power cable.

There is more.... and I don’t see any USA in this website/name : Zavfino Silver Dart PC

Speaker cable selection is more complicated than just the gauge. In general the longer the run the larger the gauge, but that is an oversimplification. Material choices are probably more important.

Depending on the amplifier and speakers, a larger speaker cable (lower gauge number) can improve the damping factor of the amplifier, which improves grip on the speakers. As to why/how a cable can effect sound quality, the construction of the cable, type of insulation, and whether shielded/unshielded can also impart audible changes. It's system-dependent so YMMV.

I needed some slightly longer cables as a new amp wouldn't fit in my normal amp rack space and needed to be a little further away from the speakers. I saw the new version of Kiimber 8PR cables now using the "varistrand" design (varied thickness little solid core wires in each strand), liked the look and paid less than 500 bucks for a terminated 13.5 foot pair. They look great and sound great...10 AWG to each speaker post. 

This is hard to beat.

Wire Gauge: 16 AWG
Capacitance: 35pF/m
Inductance: 0.52 µH/m

From Roger Russell (former McIntosh Director of Acoustic Research)

Wire Table

You have to remember that not only speakers but to a lesser extent cables exhibit impedance, and together they form a impedance circuit. 

 To lessen that effect use thicker/lower gauge wire.

This is an area that cable geometry can make a difference.  I would suggest listening to several cables and go with what sounds best.  

@thespeakerdude, 

Does tend to get a little claustrophobic in here at times, can you blame any of us :-) 

Draped in a cloak of secrecy that appears to be showing signs of wear and tear, thedudespeaker. 

At least hint towards the very fact you’ve been to Niagara Falls …. 

@thespeakerdude I am in no way angry.  I never get involved in the frequent audiophile forum disputes but I was put off by your comments and felt the need to say something.  I’m not sensitive, but for someone to call an area “middle of no where Canada” which is 15-20 minutes from a town known as “The Hub” of the province I’m from (which is a 45 minute drive from the capital city), by someone I highly doubt has ever been there, was to me offensive.  The fact that you’re not understanding of this after being made aware of it is to me rather telling, and I’ll leave it at that.  Feel free to continue engaging, but I won’t be commenting further.  

10awg,Its a good place to be <>..."that paul knew a lil somethin".

I heard Paul of PS Audio swear by 10 gauge once. Now I agree with him even with my efficient Cornwall 4's.

Agreed with "end obsession with basic studio cable" thought.  Nine ft Mogami 2921 speaker level three-wire Neutrik out to my REL t5i and total of 25 ft of Mogami 3103 with good banana clips to my Wharfedale Lintons and I sleep well at night on this topic, LOL

Depends entirely on the context..

Sorry @sworksone , but if the company was from Iowa, they still would be in a little farmhouse in the middle of no where, and then you wouldn't have needed to be offended, but alas, they are not from Iowa, they are from Nova Scotia. Aren't you supposed to direct your anger at Quebec or Ontario or something?

@lloydc +1

@raysmtb1 +1

@rmpetrop +1

@clearthinker +1 "Just buy some fairly heavy cable and stop obsessing."

thespeakerdude

You may want to think long and hard on that statement. How did I know it was a little farmhouse in the middle of no where, unless I found it on a map? Not sure where farmer's came into the conversation. Do you go the the local farm for your audio cables? I go there for eggs. Wonderful people. They have an eclectic range of chickens. A box of 12 eggs looks like an easter basket, no paint required.

I thought about it, but as someone originally from Nova Scotia I still find your comment ignorant and offensive.  Enjoy your eggs.  

It's pretty much conventional wisdom that all cables need to get out of the way of the music, so why put more cable in the way of the music? My experience is not as vast as others here but I've had stranded and solid core, copper and silver, heavy and light gauge, and heavy duty terminations. and the best I've found is the thinnest, single strand of silver supported in an oversized tube with connectors pared down to the minimum to get the most out of my system, getting the most out of the way of the music.

All the best,
Nonoise

@sworksone ,

I’m not sure what you have against farmers or Nova Scotia but I have a feeling you might have difficulty finding it on a map.

You may want to think long and hard on that statement. How did I know it was a little farmhouse in the middle of no where, unless I found it on a map? Not sure where farmer's came into the conversation. Do you go the the local farm for your audio cables? I go there for eggs. Wonderful people. They have an eclectic range of chickens. A box of 12 eggs looks like an easter basket, no paint required.

thespeakerdude 456 posts

03-14-2023 at 03:23pm 

Never heard of Zavfino before today, and I see many mentioning it. A company with USA in their name, apparently based out of little farmhouse in the middle of no where in Canada, and made somewhere in the world. Definitely leveraging the power of the internet and outsourcing.

I’m not sure what you have against farmers or Nova Scotia but I have a feeling you might have difficulty finding it on a map.

The longer the run the higher the gauge generally. I have settled on Audioquest Type-4. It seemingly does not add or subtract from the music, and it is relatively affordable. Yeah, would I like to get my hands on a run or two of Auditorium 23’s? Certainly, but the prices keep going up up up....they are also not readily available, well even the Type-4’s are getting tough to find. Audio Advisor, seemingly one of the only places that will still sell you custom terminated runs are temporarily out of stock. The good thing about cables is you generally only buy it once. I run two pairs of the Type-4 for bi-wiring.

New idea measuring speaker cable by AWG.  Just buy some fairly heavy cable and stop obsessing.  If it really mattered you would move your amps and speakers so they could be directly connected/hard wired.  For instance, if I turned my monoblocs around they would connect to the speaker terminals with six inches of wire.  But that's not good, most of us think speakers need to see some capacitance/inductance load and three or four feet of cable.

Or if you're the obsessive type spend $00000s on some smart arse speaker cable as long as you can afford to pay for.

Never heard of Zavfino before today, and I see many mentioning it. A company with USA in their name, apparently based out of little farmhouse in the middle of no where in Canada, and made somewhere in the world. Definitely leveraging the power of the internet and outsourcing.

Sasho...Zavfinos do offer refinement in low end.I wouldnt use them if they didnt.Cant see you not happy with them.As posted mogamis might have slightly more as they are a 8awg wire apposed to 9awg occ.More bass doesnt make for a better cable? imho...These are my results in my system i have found and did.

Also as posted the difference is the zavfinos offer a more polished broader spectrum vs nutralish/mogami 3104.You cant get away from the price difference as the mogami is a cheaper offering.As posted...i ended up with the zavfinos for a reason and am quite content with them.

If you have a speaker that drops down to 2.5 ohms, with an 8 foot speaker cable, going from 18awg to 10awg will increase the level, at that impedance valley, 0.3db, and the damping will go from 24 to 150. Audible? Maybe.  If your speaker only drops to 4 ohms, those numbers are 0.2db and 40 to 250. Audible? Probably not. Those impedance valleys almost always happen at bass frequencies. This is a change from 18awg to 10awg, so a pretty severe change. Small gauge changes will have smaller differences.

How many watts or amps you are pushing out it not the relevant metric. The lowest impedance of your speaker is, though lower impedance means more amps at the same voltage.

I ended up using the Townshend F-1 speaker cable. I’m not sure of the gauge but it is the best I have tried. And believe me I have tried a lot.

ozzy

thanks for reply

looks like Mogami 3104 Is very high value giving price of cable

I thought that Zavfino Prima SC can offer more LF refinement

I should have added that primas are occ wire as well.

sasho...The low end on the primas are on par <> with mogami 3104...mogami have a little more being 8awg cable.Mogamis rock solid lowend with a nice nuetral mids'high's make it a nice quality copper pair of diy wire's.The prima's with the center silver wire and build quality give the Zavfino a more open soundstage...were the mogami is flatter/nuetral side in a good way.

I am glad i did the diy project's to see were these wire's are in performance level to a ready made offering.

In the end the primas are the ones i ended my quest with and are sounding really good.Lowend is there with a nice open soundstage...solid very well thought out / made product,I grew tired of doing my own and was ready to try them.Glad i did,Recommended.Hope this helps.

@digsmithd

would you please tell us more about Zavfino Prima Speaker Cable and particularly how does bass

how good Is this cable compared to Mogami 3104

I'm loving my Denon DCD-1700NE. It plays CD, SACD and DVD-R with high-res files.

However, I have added a major tweak that that fixes a serious omission. In fact, I believe almost all manufacturers don't understand the implication of this oversight.

We all understand the importance of clean power with shielded cables. The same with shielded interconnects.

Once the power is inside the component, shielding is still necessary and is perhaps just as important, if not more so.

Here's my Denon with shielding.

Canare 4S11 speaker cable.  11 gauge, about $1.25 per foot.  Better than my uber expensive (4 figures) Groneberg Quattro Reference speaker cable.

In my limited experience with this kind of stuff, here's what I found, with the same amp (McIntosh MA5200), same speakers (Revel Performa 3 F206 - 8 Ohm nominal load) and same lengths of (copper) cable (6 feet).

Going from 16-gauge Monster Cable to general all-purpose multiply shielded 16-gauge AudioQuest cable (cut from a large spool at the stereo shop) yielded a slightly improved sound quality ... I think. However, that could have been me just trying to convince myself that I could hear an improvement. That's how slight the improvement was ... if there was one.

Going from the same multiply shielded general all-purpose 16-gauge AudioQuest cable to 12-gauge AudioQuest Type 8 definitely yielded better sound quality. The improvement was, admittedly, relatively slight but immediately palpable or "hearable", if you will. I didn't have to strain or listen hard or for very long to notice the difference and I seriously don't think it was me trying to justify the expenditure. She Who Must Be Obeyed, never one to hesitate to give me a brutally honest opinion, when asked or not, said she could hear a significant improvement, as well.

Now, would going to good quality 10-gauge speaker cables and/or super expensive exotica cables with these same components yield even better sound quality? I seriously don't think so. I've done serious seat-time with the same components in stereo shops using super expensive exotica cables (e.g.  AQ Robin Hood - apt name, don't you think ... rob from the poor; give to the rich - sorry; couldn't resist; Nordost; Kimber; Transparent). Granted, the acoustic characteristics of these disparate sound rooms varied, the wiring in the different buildings was likely different and all that jazz, and they were all using banana plugs (I'm a firm believer in high-quality spades at both ends, if possible). However, I still didn't hear any significant differences or improvements in sound quality from my home set-up. There are some who firmly believe they can, indeed, hear infinitesimally small improvements or, rather, differences in performance of various reasonably good and/or high-end quality speaker cables and connectors. If you are convinced that you can hear a difference in performance and/or sound quality that appeals to you versus one cable, connector or whatever over another and think it's worth it, then go for it!

Now, I don't have a Mikey Fremer system that would justify super expensive speaker cables, connectors, etc. I'd have to build a dedicated sound room to justify anything like that. Maybe someday ... if I win the lottery or some long lost relative leaves me a million-dollar inheritance.

If a larger cable sounds different, that is because the smaller cable was not letting everything get through.  I always laugh when someone tries to say a smaller cable is better in their system....that's saying they are like the truncated sound better.

I was given some heavy networked speaker cables years ago, but changed to a much lighter easier to handle 8 stranded set of 13 gauge aggregate braided wire.

No change for the worse, and having had my speakers apart, I know it's many times thicker than the  internal wiring, inductors, or capacitors they use.