Why pay so much for super high end?

Wolf_Garcia


Help us out here will you please. 

Loudspeaker design can be as simple as basic math and all the way up into complex physics involving quantum aspects.

It covers seven branches of physics/science, and is so complex, that we don’t have any real courses or degrees in it as an applied engineered science. Ie, there is no where you can go to get a ’Bachelor of speaker design’ degree.

It is a hardcore renaissance autodidact subject, where anyone with a 2" pocket radio speaker and an old cardboard box -can play...all the way up to a player with multiple degrees in physics and engineering.

There is no accurate prediction of the level of quality or success (beyond a general take), that will show how good sounding the given resulting speakers might be, as the feedback loop of design counts on more than just smarts, it counts on the quality of human hearing function of the designer, and the listener/buyer. There is precious little recognition of human hearing as being different from person to person and not directly correlated with overall intelligence in a clear fashion. Which can lead to more confusion and bickering in the audio world.

Hearing runs the gamut of ranging, from virtual deafness to perfected and evolving high levels of skill. We build our own hearing over time and each wiring and ear set is utterly unique, and literally hears differently than the next. Same for the eye, same for the intellect.  We posses basic similarity in body/mind pathways ---- but each build is unique.

It is a multi-tiered, multi-path - a set of parallel complex to navigate paths, as an overall set.

All of the sciences involved, are, at their heart or limits... incomplete, not perfected. Thus they end up meeting in inaccuracies and shots in the dark. So we can have brilliant speakers and sad hack jobs, all on the same page.

To add.... the personal level of evolution and hearing abilities/desires/wiring of the given prospective buyer can elevate mediocrity into being some sort of holy grail, or vice versa. Normal is for average, and the middle road of quality can be popularized as a holy grail and the more esoteric musing of such a grouping can still encompass mediocrity into their projections of perfection.

Commercial interests must follow these directions and motions of the potential buyers -- thus mediocrity also finds a place to flourish and expand. As we know, the biggest companies in the world of audio are almost never the best. Just the most popular. popular just means popular, and some of the negative organization we find that are pervasive in such ways... are virii, parasites, weeds, and plagues. What is commercial populism, exactly? A middle road? a bulk of similarity, a functional grouping in common communication? Can the best even be recognized or found in such an environment or is the idea of best in such a context - even relevant?

Psychology, medians & bell curves, the herd instinct in humans, and so on. Most people cannot approach the best and don’t understand it when they do, it’s appreciation being a very subjective component of unfettered personal evolution, just like it is in all other ares of inclusive complex human evolution. Quality does not necessarily cost, but it can and many times does.

The subject area is so complex and inclusive that all voices have room to be of themselves and move in many a way and direction.

Please don't read this, unless of course you are totally bored, no football on tv, not a good book in sight and you are just sitting around waiting for america to become great again. 

I think a better blind test for speakers would be to take two speakers, same brand, one costing twice as much as the other and ask the listeners or testicles which one they prefer. Not necessarily just hearing a difference but choosing a speaker they would want to live with. 

Now I don't care who you are that is a good one. Raises the issue, do people simply go for the more expensive speaker because it has one extra driver?

read the link I posted and you will learn something

Hi mr_m,

Threads with titles like this are 100% guaranteed to be a colossal waste of time. I should follow my own advice and ignore them.

Best to you mr_m,
Dave

Could have been more productive if I had been listening to Coltrane...

I have spent the last hour and one half reading and digesting this entire thread. What have I learned from this? Just that a good chunk of my Saturday morning is now shot.....

We have some very talented DIY guys in our audio group.   Beyond the musical enjoyment we all get from the finished product, there is quite a bit of satisfaction to be had by building something from scratch.   I don't think saving money has much to do with DIY,  it is just the enjoyment of music plus the satisfaction of creating your own equipment.

I am 100% in accordance with him. Hi End audio has become more of a major business than a hobby. Gear prices are getting so high that only some astronauts are able to reach them. The answers are the materials used, components, time to design cabinets and crossovers, etc... This manufactures buy parts and material by bulk and their prices are lower, but they don't care about making gear affordable,  because some rich audiophiles will buy their products anyway. A good example is the company Elac with Andrew Jones who are building speakers that will give you the best sound for your money. Another issue is that the companies will build model A, B and C and you may be able to get model A, but never C which is the best. Everything is about money and not about hi end audio. That's how Capitalism works!!!  

Well said 

Why buy a $60K BMW when you can buy a good used donkey for about $1K?  Both will transport the troll in post #1. 

then there's this:

http://matrixhifi.com/ENG_contenedor_ppec.htm

more like patting each others big phat speaker cables to feel good about themselves...

but I am sure that people would be able to distinguish different speakers over $15,000 in a blind test - it's less clear that one is better or would be preferred

This whole site/thread is full troll bashing trolls, the lot of you spend way too much time on these forums just looking for a chance to either shred someone or pat each others libido to feel good about yourselves. 

Fun Fun

Do you think that in a blind test most people would recognize a $10,000 difference in speakers over $15,000. Personally I don't think so.

Long thread. I purchase based on if it will make x amount of dollar to x amount of sound difference.  Will I spend 100k? No it won't make a 100k difference in sound. I've been into this for awhile starting with Harmon karden to adcom to rotel and finally classe. I purchased the classe cp-800 and the c d200 digital amp for 5800 together. Did it make a 4300 dollar difference parting with my rotel rc-1570 and rb-800 at roughly 1500 (new processor purchase, picked up amp used).. the answer is absolutely. 

wolf I am going to come to NY and put some carbon fiber in your -------------------------LOL

Coda: I stopped by a month later. He sold the speakers to some poor sucker. 

Why should it matter how someone spends their money? I answered that above: because someone spending $33K when they should be spending $3.3K distorts the market.  

The price of high end equipment has become
absurd.
I used to be in the game until cables cost more
than a modest house.
Ditto for Audio Note's CDT-5 transport with Fifth Element DAC at $250,000.
People buy this gear because they can. 
Money is meaningless to these folks.
It's like purchasing a $1.2million Audemars Piguet.
They usually no nothing about high end audio.
Their attitude is
"If it costs the most then it must be the best."
Equipment that costs one tenth can sound markedly better, but it's not prestigious.
These folks won't even listen to it.
"What, it's not from the Golmund salon?"
I wish that I had that kind of money but I do have a Cello Palette, Sequerra FM-1, Apogee Full Range speakers, etc. and I'm quite happy.
Crazy money in 1970's-1990's, but obtainable.
Now it has become crazy unattainable except by the super rich.
Same for cars, watches, jets, yachts, 50,000sq
ft homes, jewelry. 
The average Bugatti owner has 8 homes, 40 automobiles, a private jet and helicopter.
Now audio joins that group.
What about a surround sound with the new Wilson Wamm's  (I owned the originals that I got preowned) and Golmund,  FM Acoustics, Audio Note, Nordost Odin stuff.
Enjoy what you have and spend money on LPs
CDs, etc.
Now where's  that super rich person's checkbook?

I have a little personal anecdote that may be relevant to this discussion. 

Over the summer, I was walking past a quality boutique "hi-end audio" shop and saw through the window a suspiciously familiar-looking pair of speakers in the showroom. 

I walked inside and asked if I could audition them. They had an LP that I had in my own collection that I was very familiar with, I asked that they put it on the turntable and that we listen through some tube equipment. 

After we listened to one track, I asked for the price of the speaker pair. 

As there was no grill cloth over the driver, I could see the driver design. I asked if they were the Altec 604C. The salesperson looked a little taken aback, and so as to avoid the possibility of him stepping further into it I said "because they sure do look exactly like my pair of 604Cs. I see that the cabinet volume is the same as well, although the wood type used here seems different". Nothing exotic, mind you, just birch instead of maple, maybe? So I asked "Could you tell me what would justify this price point?"  He muttered something about the crossover. I asked for specifics, he couldn't provide any, they were "proprietary". I told him that "the 604C was famous for its crappy crossover, but Mastering Labs fixed that. And Great Plains Audio makes a decent crossover for this driver today". 

At this point we have attracted a small crowd, and I conclude. "Well, the proof is in the pudding. I listened to this pair and I am hard-pressed to hear a great difference in their sound compared to mine, but there is a huge difference in price. Whereas mine cost $3,300, your pair here cost $33,000. I could still find the parts on eBay today to build another pair for no more than $4,000 max. 

At that point, I could see that I had worn out my welcome, I said thanks for his time and left, but not before several customers followed me to the door and asked for my contact info. 

I feel very strongly that we need another Haffler building the 2016 version of Dynaco. Far to many so-called audio engineers are less interested in designing audio gear below the point of diminishing returns, and are instead chasing huge dollars in a market that is distorted by the gross income disparity found in society today. Why make quality audio that more people can afford when you can build $600K speakers for a class of people who just don't know any better?

Some here will complain that that most young people prefer to listen to earbuds and don't appreciate hi-end-audio, but it could be that not enough quality equipment at a price point that the plebeian masses can afford is being made that they could appreciate and compare to. 

Regards, 
unreceivedogma 

Audiophiles don’t write, perform or engineer records ... they create with the playback. How much is the feeling of creativity worth? As much as you have :)

Any small gain has a big cost.  This goes for my mastering chain as well.  

No need to judge.  It's just jealousy.  Let other enjoy their life !

There's a Richard Mille watch I like that costs $650,000. (I'm saving up). I think it also has some carbon fibre in it, and it is likely latte resistant.

He's a genius, no question.  But... does the $15,000 Carver ALS sound better than a somewhat cheaper Maggie?

______________________________
Legacy - I have heard they sound good, but no experience.

________________________
Why would sound waves go thru the molecules of carbon fiber??  The post above gives good info on some advantages of panels (dipole radiators) but when I saw the analogy of sound waves to microwaves (much shorter wavelength and EMF, I almost tossed my latte...)

http://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/carver-als-line-source-loudspeaker-system/

Even Bob had to use a subwoofer.

The thing about the waves off the back of the driver is that they have an output that is equal to the output into your room. The usual way to deal with that is add MDF bracing upon bracing which adds weight and more weight which lowers the resonance and makes the problem worse.  High resonance is much easier to deal with. Ping on a wine glass, to shut it down you merely touch it with your finger. That won't happen when you rap on a larger and heavier pan for example. Take out the 12" woofer from a speaker and you can see how vulnerable they are.
Ideally to deal with resonance a speaker should be small and light. Or as small as possible and still maintain enough volume to load the drivers.

So in effect a plea for small(er) speakers? Resonances of higher frequencies may be easier to deal with, but where present are potentially more obtrusively audible, or? What about the shortcomings of small speakers as going by their limited radiation area and SPL capabilities (not as a means of max. SPL per se, but rather their ease of reproduction at more "normal" listening levels)? Sheer impact, physicality and emotional connection would go by the wayside, as I see it, if small and low sensitivity was all there ever was. What then is ultimately won?

The thing about the waves off the back of the driver is that they have an output that is equal to the output into your room. The usual way to deal with that is add MDF bracing upon bracing which adds weight and more weight which lowers the resonance and makes the problem worse.  High resonance is much easier to deal with. Ping on a wine glass, to shut it down you merely touch it with your finger. That won't happen when you rap on a larger and heavier pan for example. Take out the 12" woofer from a speaker and you can see how vulnerable they are. 
Ideally to deal with resonance a speaker should be small and light. Or as small as possible and still maintain enough volume to load the drivers. 

The other advancement that makes a huge difference is composite technology. That is what happens when you touch the vibrating wine glass. Your finger and the glass work together to stop the resonance. Some speakers do that. My guess is that most don't. Vandersteen uses some carbon fiber in their model 7. Carbon fiber is excellent because sound waves pass through those long carbon molecules which vibrate and turn to heat. Works on planes that avoid radar detection. The radar waves don't bounce back to the source rather they are quickly converted to heat. 

It is easy to recognize how fast and clean electro static speakers are. The back waves are dumped into the room and the cabinet doesn't have to deal with them. They obviously have other problems.

Has anyone (including the OP) seen the cutaway of a Magico speaker enclosure?
Has anyone read about their drivers? I don’t know for sure, but I don’t think anyone can make these kinds of speakers in their basement or garage.

Are they worth the price, I don’t know? But I don’t think there are many DIY projects that sound anywhere near that good?

Am I missing something?

Audio is not about how much money you can spend. Or are prepared to spend.

It is a fact that you need to pay a lot more to get double the quality. Still this is not the problem or limitation.

People who work in audio need to be more open and honest to give people more quality for the money they want to spend. It is too easy to be focussed just on your own F. needs.

Live is all about looking further. And in audio you also need to learn to look further. Differences are in the details.

Without music there is no audio. But without audio there is still music. People who work in audio need to learn to have more respect for music.

When they would have more knowledge and insight in music they would create different and better products. There are a lot of products which properties and qualtities has nothing to do with how music sounds.

When people have no idea how music sounds in real, you can say and sell them whatever you want. Based on time and techniques people could get a lot more in quality than what they get back.

1st this thread makes no sense at all and maybe that's what the intentions are. The originator thinks putting $30 speakers in a $10 cabinet and you have a $130,000 raidho speaker system.
also, if somebody spends more $$$ on something than what he does he thinks it's insane and foolish.
i don't need some guy that really doesn't know what he is talking about criticize me or others on how much they spend on something. 

Vivid Audio has shaped their drivers which is perhaps more important then shaping the cabinets. The drivers are designed to allow the back waves to flow more freely past the magnet and spider towards the dampening. Looking at most drivers even on very expensive speakers it is easy to see that a large portion of those back waves are just going to bounce off the magnet and spider and fly back through the thinnest part of the cabinet, the very thin cone. There goes the clarity.

I’ve never heard Vivid Audio speakers, but would like to. They are compelling in light of how their sound is described, and are said to be very dynamic and resolved. Perhaps you could elaborate?

What you mention though with regard to the free flow of the back waves emitted by the drivers seems if not unimportant, then a curious highlight from anyone other than the manufacturer itself. I’m not saying this particular technical feat doesn’t matter, but what is it to us really to speculate into these issues when what most of us really do is being immersed in the totality of their reproduced sound? What I’m getting at is the effect of being lead on by claims that seek to explain this and that feat and its sonic importance, when we can only really assume its (ir-)relevance and should perhaps refrain from any further deduction. For example, many of us have been spoon-fed with the apparent importance of speakers being slender, that (multiple) smaller drivers are quicker, that certain diaphragm materials are desirable, that totally inert cabinets are a must, etc., and we then go on to label this off as the truth ourselves. Let’s not pretend to be oblivious to the business importance of brand distinction, the domestic (spouse-)demands for smaller size, the want for convenience and on and on, and how all of this is catered to to varying degrees by the manufacturer. It seems to me we’ve lost at least some, or even a vital part of reference outside of what the industry "dictates" or fashions, a reference that rests more solely within the listener.

It should be noted that heavy speakers boasting their size and weight actually work against physics in that heavier materials resonant at a lower frequency. Low frequencies are much harder to deal with. Much harder. Larger cabinets will always propel greater amounts of cabinet resonance into the room. The reason is simple. If the area of the cabinet is 100 times the area of the driver then the cabinet only has to resonate at 100th the amount of the driver to deliver the same amount of energy into the room. The test for this is to stop at a traffic light next to a car with a subwoofer in the trunk. The sound is amplified by the surface area of the car..

A propos.. Reading over at Oswalds Mill Audio on the choice of hardwoods for building their very large conical horns and cabinets, Mr. Weiss mentioned particular woods as being sonically desirable (i.e.: "the ones that sound good"). So, this is actually acknowledging the contribution of the surfaces not being the diaphragms themselves, but that would otherwise play a factor in the overall sonic outcome, and work with them as part of a whole. Others would fret over the issue of progressive size and its associating resonant tendencies, and altogether ditch their justification. Or, try to work around them as a means of seeking resonance elimination, and end up with enclosures the weight of several hundred kilos a piece, and a new set of challenges with the drivers being the by far biggest sonic contributor - not necessarily desirable.

Dome tweeters are of of those parts which does not make sense at the time we live. Based on their limitations why you would still use them.

At shops, shows, distributers and people at home they still make a lot of mistakes regardless what kind of stuff you connect with it.

With the expensive Sonus Faber, B&W 800D3 series, Kef reference. Kef Blade, Focal Utopia and Wilson Audio showed at many sets the same kind of difficulties over and over again.

Sss, sharp edges, word endings which are not pronounced well. Also the limitation in diversity in heights of recordings. Narrow staging and not a sharp individual focus of voices and instruments.

These are essential parts of highend which need to be there.

When there would be parameters, many highend speakers who use the word ’highend’ would never be called highend.

Magico uses some nice materials. But they have their own limitation as well. You can make a cabinet without any kind of resonations, it will not be the best sounding speaker.

They get a clean sound, and even with tubes you still hear back the clean sound. Creating speakers by computers and measurements will not create the best and most involving speaker.

Sonus Faber had once a great article about instruments. Like a violin or cello creates it’s sound and diversity by distortion. When you listen to many highend systems these days often they miss diversity in sound.

This is by far the most important part to create emotion for us humans. When we go to a show and we speak with many different people about the sets. Most discussions are these days about the lack of emotion in the sets on shows.

It is a fact that many sets are not able to create diversity. The thing is; they don’t know how to create it?

Highend without a 3 dimensional physical stage has nothing to do with highend audio. When you go to the biggest highend show in the world in Munic and 90% is 2 dimensional you can ask yourself if people understand what they are doing. And why the stage and sound of their system is what we hear?

Even expensive audio does not garantie you a higher quality or a physical 3 dimensional image as it should be. The reason why is very simple.

There are no parameters and rules for highend audio. It is word without a true  meaning.

mb1 audio

 Magico made a pretty good attempt at speaker design. First using plywood in the face of their monitors ( plywood has great pullout strength for screws adding stability to the drivers )  and then heading towards aluminum. Vivid Audio has shaped their drivers which is perhaps more important then shaping the cabinets. The drivers are designed to allow the back waves to flow more freely past the magnet and spider towards the dampening. Looking at most drivers even on very expensive speakers it is easy to see that a large portion of those back waves are just going to bounce off the magnet and spider and fly back through the thinnest part of the cabinet, the very thin cone. There goes the clarity. 

It should be noted that heavy speakers boasting their size and weight actually work against physics in that heavier materials resonant at a lower frequency. Low frequencies are much harder to deal with. Much harder. Larger cabinets will always propel greater amounts of cabinet resonance into the room. The reason is simple. If the area of the cabinet is 100 times the area of the driver then the cabinet only has to resonate at 100th the amount of the driver to deliver the same amount of energy into the room. The test for this is to stop at a traffic light next to a car with a subwoofer in the trunk. The sound is amplified by the surface area of the car..

I am working in this world for over 18 years of time now. In the last 2 years I have spoken to many people who spend a lof of money on audio for a long time.

I wanted to know how it is possible they buy expensive stuff and some time later they don’t like it anymore.

Why you bought it?

I met a few people who had sets of about 80.000 euro and were not happy with their set and still trying to find the sound they were looking for.

They all had one thing in common. They bought parts which costed a lot of money. But at the end they didn’t like it.

They all gave the same answer why they bought it. They were busy for a long time and were tired of trying things out.

The second reason was that they believed the people who sold it to them. It takes some time and then it will sound good they told them.

Mannnnn how naive you can be? Things need time to burn in, but when it does not convince don’t buy it.

I met people who were so tired that they wanted to sell their whole system. When I saw what they bought it was very easily for me why it sounded like shit.

When you are not able to think in properties audio is one big F. gamling. Nothing more, nothing less. You need to understand why the stage and sound is what you hear.

If you cannot answer this question, audio is all about trial and error. There is no discussion possible.

Each system what only playes a 2 dimensional stage has nothing to do with highend audio. Because when you listen to music in real it has it’s place in space.

Most 2 dimensional systems play all instruments and voices on one line. The problem is based on the human emotion. Each single 2 dimensional system is not able to create enough intensity and emotion to be liked over a longer period.

All the people who didn’t buy music anymore, or didn’t like their system anymore had the same thing in common. They all owned 2 dimensional systems.

Placebo is just so incredibly powerful people do not understand it.

This applies to DIYers as well. That is why many of them are so strong in their belief that their "creations" sound identical to gear 100X’s their cost.

Now, funtrollfun, you DO realize that you are on a forum on a used audio website, don’t you? How large of a target audience do you think you are speaking to here? You know, the type who would actually pay $30K for a $30K amp? My guess would be 0% of your target audience dallies in a simple forum on a web page designed for used audio gear.

The fellas that really find your gears, don’t waste their time here. They are busy buying $500K+ cars, $5M+ boats, $5k+ watches, etc. To them, $100K is like $10 to you or I.

Most of us here might spend more money in this hobby than you, but lose very little money making shrewd investments. Over the last 30 years, yes, even pre-dating Audiogon, I have lost money in this hobby, because I change gear frequently so that I may experience much of this hobby personally. However, the amount of money I have lost would probably shock you, maybe 5-10% tops, mostly lost on ads, shipping, and PayPal. I even make money on some re-sales occasionally.

So while you are busy building stuff that you are working on convincing yourself is just as good as the "real thing", I am busy auditioning many different versions of the "real thing".

When the dust settles, at the end of the day, I have a finished product that I can sell if I choose to, you do not. Yes, there are the very rare DIYers that do sell their creations, just as there are buyers of used gear that consistently make money on their gear flips. These breeds are in the very, very small minority though.

In the end, most folks are frugal with their money, it’s just a difference of whether they would choose to spend their time looking for wise investments or building something themselves. It takes all types to make the world go round, not everyone is cut out to be a mechanic, just as not everyone is cut out to be a knowledgeable investor.

In the end, life is short, find what brings you the most happiness, and pursue it. If building your own toys tickles your fancy, have at it. However, stop trying to be so mule-headed as to think that your path to happiness is the way for everyone. There is no one single path to audio nirvana, most here are mature enough to understand that. Perhaps you can DIY some common sense and understanding into your world.

Adults with some money like toys too.   Life's too short to not enjoy what you enjoy.  No need to rationalize to others.   

The placebo effect is real but can be eliminated by careful listening tests. Just like any other psychological bugaboo that skeptics might want to put forth. 

Placebo is just so incredibly powerful people donot understand it. Why do people think drug trials are done with a placebo for control? It’s so incredibly powerful in people’s psyche that if you give someone a sugar pill and tell them it’s a sedative that makes you hungry and tired people will gain 50 lbs in a few months and sleep 16 hours a day. People have been given fake alcohol and literally most of them would act drunk. there have been so many placebo trials done that it’s well documented in the scientific community.


If you compare a $2000 amplifier to a $30,000 amplifier and are told the price difference and one looks fancier and are told in a review it’s much better then you will generally believe you are hearing something better due to the review and the price they charge. same with a lot of things I home audio...

Placebo is powerful that fake pills when told are real can work because your mind is so incredibly powerful that the belief can cure things...they are actually trying to harness the power of placebo for medical advancements in the brain...that should give you insight in to home audio

If SVS or Aperion or Ascend Acoustics released a full scan Speak Illuminator speaker with excellent cabinets and good crossovers for 4 way full range floorstanders and $5,000 and a 3 way bookshelf for $2750 and 3 way center for $1,750 it would change things.  The d3004 is considered by a  great many as the best tweeter in the world same with their 4.5" midrange...and their woofers are considered of the best too.  
The amplifier market and processor and sources and cables will probably be that way until a 60 minutes episode comes out.  Even then people have been used to the Idea that $20,000 for an amplifier is normal...they won't go away for a while.


It will end one day just who knows when.

Mb1 audio of course most diy speakers aren't as good as high end.  a lot of them use budget bang for the buck drivers like Dayton etc and the cabinetsame while sophisticated could be improved.

My point is there should be a site like diyaudio.com where there are several designs that people with extensive building knowledge design 150-200+ lb cabinets with high end drivers and crossovers instead of budget designs that would actually put a dent in the scam market there is today.

I'd personally prefer to buy retail but hey I refuse to be scammed.

If enough people decided hey....I don't want to buy $25,000 speakers any more and pay a 1000% margin on cost to build...then they will drastically lower prices.  There are too many speaker companies anyways there are thousands.  There are only a hand full of car dealers, tv manufacturers and cell phone makers.  These huge, huge margins allow 1000s of small companies to exist because they make a fortune when they sell 1 pair of speakers.  People don't understand they're being scammed...if they did they wouldn't do it.  

No amplifier should ever cost more than $5,000 to buy.  No 10' 100% copper speaker cables should ever cost more than $150 to buy.  No processor should ever cost more than $5,000 to buy.  No Source player should ever cost more than $1,000 unless it's 500 disc capacity.  No pair of speakers should ever cost over $10,000 unless it's something crazy like a line source or special circumstances.


If you guys keep paying the margins out of ignorance then they will keep reaping the fruits of it.


Even though the diy revolution will probably never happen I have a feeling a factory direct speaker company is going to off set the market in the next 10 years...


Someone is going to design  a 150 lb well built cabinet with super high end drivers and an excellent crossover and you will get the highest end 11 channel atmos speaker set for like $12,500 and it will rival $500,000 systems but the placebo reviewers will gawk at its low price and say it's ok when in reality they'll be the top speakers on the market.


Can't wait for it.

Then another factory direct company will follow suit...and soon there will be a handfull of companies with flagship speakers rivaling speakers costing 100 times their asking prices.  Super high end scan Speak, dynaudio oem and Seas designs and accuton ...all for pennies compared to the high end world.

It already started when SVS released the PB16-Ultra for $2,500...arguably the greatest commercial subwoofer on earth for $2,500.

@mb1audio, I couldn't agree more w/11-23 11:52.

I'm diying a classic design with an nod to the German Physiks model.  The sound of the former with an 'update', with my own 'take' on the concept.  I can't buy what's in my mind's eye at any price.  That, and a champagne taste with a cold water budget.
If I'm going to 'tilt windmills', dammit, I'm going to pick a Big One and have @ it. *L*
If I come up a good one, I'll obviously share that.  And a vid with better sound in the effort.
If it sucks, I share that too.  "Don't go there with That."  
It requires commitment.  I can do that.
Thought.  Planning.  Execution.  Yup.
I'm not building a cabinet, it's a speaker.  Well, half of one, anyway.
Not that I've not thought of that, though....one could...but I digress...a lot.
While some chase Nirvana 'that'away', I'm going 'this'away'.
And the enjoyment of My chase vs. yours vs. anyone else's...
...is relatively the same to me, just a different POV.

I like 'surround'.  I just want Really Good Surround.
That's My itch.  Scratching as fast as I can.... ;)
Your scratch yours...I'm busy. *L*

soundsrealaudio, 

Can you give more details and some examples? There's always going to be a mix of good and bad speakers in the market. But if you look at most of the successful speaker companies that have an established brand, along with track record of repeat sales, they seem to be unique in that they're products are able to outperform DIY speakers. Of course, you'll have the ocassional exception, but for the most part, DIY has a difficult time competing with established brands.

Dear Mr. Fun--Fun

I am a dealer of high end audio and have been for about 12 years. In my twenties I worked for a hi fi shop in Denver that did sell a few hi fi items, Kef, ADS, Luxman but that was in the 70's. So one would think that things would improve at a pretty good clip. I have yet to see it loudspeakers. It is almost like hobbyists that enjoy music systems say to themselves, " I think I could make a loud speaker better the these. Then they are off and running. Big MDF boxes with three drivers. WOW isn't that special. You hire a cabinet guy to go to work, you buy drivers, none are as good as you would like them to be but latter you will order direct from the factory and have them add a couple of windings and call them custom, then you play around with crossovers and settle for one, then late you will upgrade the parts and say what a huge improvement that makes.

Now you are in business. Marketing comes  next.

So I wish I did't have to say this but I agree with you.

Maybe not about the other stuff you said regarding the people who buy them.

  

This thread has long ago, gone way off the rails. it appears that the OP, just keeps poking and prodding. Time to move on!

" Much of audio is ridiculously priced, and could be done much cheaper. The prices are so high because some folks WANT them to be high, for elitist status purposes. In the last 10 years every major audio manufacturer has come out with a new top of the line model which is at least double in price. "

I've heard statements like that many times over the years, and for the most part, I just don't buy it. There are some products out there that are overpriced, but I've never seen anyone buy them as a status symbol. They're just trying to get better sound, and are willing to pay for it. Not only that, but when expensive products don't sound as good as expected, those status symbols go right out the door.

As for the doubling of prices over the last 10 years, I think its also worth mentioning that price increases go far beyond the audio industry. Everything is more expensive these days, not just audio components. Besides, no one is putting a gun to your head and forcing you to buy something. A decision like that can only be made by you. 

it is one thing to buy some cone based drivers and build an enclosure by copying the R&D of an established and eminent manf.

it is something else to hire a bunch of engineers and acousticians, but them test gear, including laser interferometers, and spend years to improve on an existing design of cones in a box

and something else again to create speaker based on ribbons, electrostatics, or a gas plasma

choose your level and how much time you want to invest for the $$ you will save (I suggest the cones in a box for any single individual)

Just remember, Edgar Villchur died for your sins

you could get $100,000+ speakers for a couple of grand.

@funtrollfun, every DIY guy I know who has $2K in his speakers claim they are as good as $100K+ speakers. That's part of the DIY fun, just imagining how much money you are saving. Pride of doing it yourself.
I can't say that I would mistake their speakers for $100K+ speakers, but they were worth at least $2K, well mostly, sorry Rick.

If they are happy with their DIY gear, God Bless 'em. I wouldn't lecture a DIYer on how to live his life, and I don't expect some DIYer to lecture anyone else on how to live their life. Only a pompous fool believes they have the right to educate the rest of the world on how to live life properly.

Much of audio is ridiculously priced, and could be done much cheaper. The prices are so high because some folks WANT them to be high, for elitist status purposes. In the last 10 years every major audio manufacturer has come out with a new top of the line model which is at least double in price.
If you don't want to chase the spiraling absolute sound, that's your business, and no one else. If others do decide to chase the spiraling absolute sound, that's their business, and not yours.

in a couple of hours you can basically earn $10,000 an hour being a speaker builder saving yourself tons of money.

Hahahaha....now that's good comedy there. If that is your actual thought process, there is sense talking logic or reason with you.

Douglas, I resent this. I didn't come to a technology site to defend science.

Stand facing one direction and have somebody play guitar while running around you. This proves nothing, but I thought it was an interesting image anyway.