If you guys haven't figured it out yet, the OP could care less about the questions he's asking. He just wants to get everyone pissed off, and start heated arguments. Beyond that, he has no other goal. I would just ignore his posts. |
bo1972
What do you think of multichannel/surround for audio? I see a lot of people trying it, and they like the results. For me, I haven't heard a music surround system that I liked. It doesn't sound real. In truth, I find it annoying. To be fair, I don't like surround sound in movies either. Maybe its just me. |
" Human ears do not hear it as such in that ear frequency response drops off at its extremes (remember loudness buttons and equalizers?) but if everything in the system needed is up to snuff to do it absolutely no doubt it does."
I'm not sure what you mean by up to snuff. Are you fixing the roll off at the extremes with some type of processing? If so, it seems like the system would have to be adjusted for each person. |
" Mb1 you can adjust or not to personal preference but I was talking about flat response to 20 hz. If response is flat level will be heard as lower. A boost is needed to make it sound flat. Check out the audio frequency spectrum chart that shows sensitivity of the ear at various frequencies. System may measure flat but in that case what our ears hear is not. "
That's what I thought you meant, and I believe you're right. I could be mistaken, but I think bo is saying something similar regarding his comments on bass. If some type of correction isn't done in the low frequencies, I can see where this could be an issue at low volumes. Powered subs set up properly can go a long way in this regard. I wouldn't consider myself an expert in this area, but from what I can see, subs are best used with full range speakers. |
" Begin with a good two channel system, like ESL's. Double the Left and Right speakers, mounting them at an angle dictated by your room. Right angles are a good place to start. Right away one hears something like an MBL with clean, fast bass.
Now add two more ESL's in the back, for surround. Best is to blend the Right and Left signals, but that's not absolutely necessary. What is necessary is a volume control. Set the volume control to the highest level which cannot be discerned in the listening position. That provides the concert hall ambiance without the source confusion."
As it stands, I'm pretty happy with my current system. I've had several pairs of ESL's so I'm familiar with how they sound. The issue I have with surround, is that I don't think its necessary.
This is how I see it. If you play a recording of an instrument on a 2 channel system (piano, sax, whatever), your system puts the image between the speakers. Now, lets say you have someone play the same instrument live in your listening room. They would be placed in the same spot where your stereo put the image. We all know the room will have an impact on SQ. Whatever effect the room has on the live instrument, it should have on the reproduced instrument. If you now through surround into the mix, you're forcing a different type of interaction than what you had with the live instrument. Unless I'm missing something, it would appear that surround takes you further away from the recording, than closer to it. |
" Speakers project sound through drivers pointed someplace (remedies for this notwithstanding for this particular rant) while instruments project sound all over the place and vary infinitely in output, let alone direction. "
I don't see that much of a difference. If you stand behind a pair of speakers you can still hear them just like you can stand behind someone playing an instrument. In either case, if you want the best sound, you need be in front.
Also, I assume you're talking about traditional box speakers. Bipolar speakers, like my old Mirage M1's will most likely project more sound from behind than is realistic.
" Stand in the middle of my listening room and play guitar, then play my speakers playing that guitar (I can and have recorded live "house concerts" in my listening room using expensive and arguably accurate mics). Utterly different, both good, and both musical."
I understand what you're saying, but I think you missed the point I was trying to make. If you were to switch back and forth between someone playing a live instrument and a recording, would stereo be a better choice, or surround? We all know that no one is going to mistake a live instrument for reproduced. I just don't see where surround would be a better choice. |
" Well mbl, I don't have a performance in my music room, ever. Even a string quartet with continuo would be a little tight.
With my system, I try to simulate a concert, with the listener (me) positioned in the middle of the dress circle. That means performers in front, and reflections from the sides and back. I don't think that two speakers do that as well as six. I explained how I do it. YMMD."
You'll have to bear with me because I'm not the best at explaining things. The reason I used a live performance as an example was to show, at least to me, that a 2 channel system seems to be better equipped to replicate the performance than a surround system. Your quote above shows where we differ. With surround, you try to replicate side and rear reflections with information coming from speakers. My opinion is that if you have an instrument play live, it will use the acoustics of the room. If you then set up a 2 channel system so that the instrument is at the same spot in the room as the live instrument, why not let the recording use the same characteristics of the room, just like what happens live?
I also want to be clear that I'm not trying to start an argument here. This is just how I see the issue, and if others are getting results using other methods, that's perfectly fine. It would be foolish for anyone to do things any other way than what works best for them. |
" This is obserd. "I don’t have time"? Figuring most of you are paid $100 an hour or less with designs in hand, in a couple of hours you can basically earn $10,000 an hour being a speaker builder saving yourself tons of money.
And you guys are all defending these mark ups? Why? What do you owe them? Many people don’t realize they’re just buying 3rd party drivers and a moderately easily (with the knowledge in hand) designed cabinet and crossovers. I didn’t know that and when I found out I was pissed. I never stopped to think about it. People are commenting on mark ups aren’t taking in to account that while you need a lot of knowledge to design crossovers and cabinets, you need beyond amateur skill to replicate it. beyond amateur.
So go on saying you "don’t have time" or "every other industry marks up" which is ridiculous rebuttals. Keep feeding this crooked industry the one that I’ve grown to hate with a serious passion."
You do a lot of talking. Now put your money where your mouth is. I'll give you 2 weeks to build a speaker that sounds as good as a pair of $2500 Vandersteen Model 2's. You can have a max budget of $5000. That's 2x full list price. The only requirements are that the speakers need to be time and phase correct like the Vandersteen's, and they have to measure at least as well. Mere child's play for someone with your verbal skills.
Do that and I'll reimburse you for the cost of materials up to 5k, and give you an additional 25k. You can show us all how easy it is to make 10k an hour. I pay cash and have no problem coming up with the money.
What I don't want, is a ridiculous debate. Either take me up on my offer and build the speakers, or not. Its up to you. I won't waste anymore time responding to your BS claims when I can have meaningful conversations the other members here. They have something real to contribute. |
" Much of audio is ridiculously priced, and could be done much cheaper. The prices are so high because some folks WANT them to be high, for elitist status purposes. In the last 10 years every major audio manufacturer has come out with a new top of the line model which is at least double in price. "
I've heard statements like that many times over the years, and for the most part, I just don't buy it. There are some products out there that are overpriced, but I've never seen anyone buy them as a status symbol. They're just trying to get better sound, and are willing to pay for it. Not only that, but when expensive products don't sound as good as expected, those status symbols go right out the door.
As for the doubling of prices over the last 10 years, I think its also worth mentioning that price increases go far beyond the audio industry. Everything is more expensive these days, not just audio components. Besides, no one is putting a gun to your head and forcing you to buy something. A decision like that can only be made by you. |
soundsrealaudio,
Can you give more details and some examples? There's always going to be a mix of good and bad speakers in the market. But if you look at most of the successful speaker companies that have an established brand, along with track record of repeat sales, they seem to be unique in that they're products are able to outperform DIY speakers. Of course, you'll have the ocassional exception, but for the most part, DIY has a difficult time competing with established brands. |
