Why is there no love for Prima Luna?

And let’s face the facts here people. Since 1979, before the Reagan administration, Hourly compensation in the US has increased 9.2%, while productivity has increased 74.6%. We’ve produced much more and yet paid less. And where is the outrage of fat cat billionaires and their overseas tax havens while US wages have stagnated for 41 years? And where is the outrage over that while union paying jobs with their pensions have disappeared because the rich want to send those jobs overseas to make even more money because they’re not satisfied with gazillions. US greed is a national pandemic in America. And you want to focus on the ills of the Chinese government? What about the ills in your own house? Not a word about all of the shortcomings of high paid lobbyists owning the crooked politicians who rubber stamps all the legislation the wealthy dictate in the US. And now even more tax cuts for the rich to hide overseas? The greed, it never ends in America. Don’t preach to me about China’s excesses because it was the US that sent all those jobs to China 45 years ago while the wealthy sold out working class Americans. 

My PrimaLuna Prolog Premium loves my Goldenear Triton Reference speakers and I love them both. Does this make us a ménage à trois?

Observe how many users have to resort to names like VAC, ARC, AYON, LAMM, MAC, etc, etc, in an attempt to prove these products are superior to PL. But here’s a question? Are those products many many times better than PL to justify their price? We’re talking 2,3,4,5 times the price of PL products. There’s always better sounding gear if you’re willing to pay many many multiples of thousands for different gear. Who wants to pay $18k for one amplifier?! Get bleeping real. So stop comparing your ultra high end products to PL in order to suggest X products are superior to Y products. The fact is, PL is a very solid delivery of very sound audio. Stop your crying about having spent 3 x more for your gear and therefore it must be superior because you spent so much of your hard earned dollars. If anyone hangs around this hobby long enough they know without a shadow of a doubt that more money spent equals a minimum of increased production due to the law of diminishing returns. For if that weren’t the case everyone would be compelled to spend $100k to have decent sound. But we don’t have to spend that kind of money do we? No, we only have to spend a minimum of money to create a solid sound system. And the thing is, PL owners aren’t suggesting their gear is superior to your ultra system. So why are you so insecure about your gear simply because you’ve spent many times more for your gear? Get control of yourself, and go listen to your expensive gear instead of posting here about how bad you believe PL must be. End rant. And btw, I purchase all of my gear used, to save even more money. The object is to acquire a great sounding system for a minimum of dollars. 

Perhaps someone can identify the coupling caps from this pic. Scroll 1/4 down, under "dare to compare"
https://www.primaluna-usa.com/dialogue-premium-hp-integrated

There has to be  some components although "selected for performance" were chosen to meet price point requirements. Sorry for the hijack.

Carry on, Prima Luna  haters.

@tablejockey

i too would like to know, anyone has done this successfully (pls supply spec of the caps) - i think the primaluna amps (even with tube upgrades) lack that last bit of transparency that the best tube amps convey, while still giving you the tube amp goodness/magic

@fsmithjack

i have not tried more current cary gear, it has been 10-12 years since -- i stopped when dennis had sold the company and checked out, my faith in the company was with my knowing him personally and that got me into his gear... that being said, the cary amps in my experience are fairly overtly tubey sounding amps in sq (in a good way) - more rounded, romantic sound, absolutely lovely with the right speakers, and if you are seeking that type of sound - very listenable, makes poorly recorded music very pleasant, voices and instruments have a sweet rich tone very dimensional, big wide deep image, bloomy bass... i still keep their 12wpc 6sn7 octal/300b se-i integrated amp for when i want a dose of that lovely sound...

Off topic, but Prima Luna SQ related.

If there's anyone who has done a coupling cap mod to their Dialogue  HP  Integrated, please PM me. Would like some insight. With a few mod's, I understand the PL and similar imports can be put in another league? The foundation is there, so I'm thinking the right mods put it higher up the SQ ladder?

Yes I agree. Cary it would seem does land somewhere between the PL and ARC gear.
For some reason it seems the older Cary gear garnered more loyalty and fellowship then their gear of today.
Dennis’s offerings seem to have had a better response among our crowd but that might just be my perception? They seemed to have crept closer to the dark side (Home Theater) since his dismissal.

I think a lot of folks were not real happy with how he got bounced from his own company? It seems to have affected the new product offerings vs yesteryear but I regress.
I love VTL gear. It’s expensive but worth it. Their singular focus on valve tech shows in a constant evolving excellence. SS need not apply here... Fantastic tube offerings. Luke has done his dad proud and for that matter so has his sister to a lessor extent but of course she has the pro market to lean on.

Does anyone have any experience with the German company Octave?
There seems to be a few out there that are reasonably priced and made in Germany.
The Germans are well known for their fanatical attention to detail with most all their engineering. They would be on the opposite end of the spectrum as that of China built gear.
One mass produced in a factory by inexpensive labor and the other build by hand by those known world wide for fanatical attention to detail and lust for over engineering everything just for the sake that they think it is the right way to do things.

The question is do they sound as good as this sounds on paper?
If at the end of day their sound falls between that of Primaluna and ARC then none of the rest matters and curious if anyone has heard them and what their thoughts might be?
This might also help the OP look at them as a possible alternative as I may do as well.

@drcjj I have listened to Cary gear.  Step up from PrimaLuna IMO, step down from ARC.  
I would check out the VTL integrated if it is powerful enough in triode mode for your speakers. VTL will be equal to ARC in terms of sound quality.  Made in USA.  
The Musical Fidelity NuVistas are wonderful sounding amp.  They are a hybrid model with a Class A, tube based input stage and SS output stage. The NuVista 600 or 800 would be brilliant and are made in Taiwan, not PRC.  
An even better  option in this design would be the AVM Ovation A 8.3 integrated.  Tube based input stage, MOSFET output stage.  Not cheap, but an amazing sounding integrated amp.  Made in Germany.

I have no affiliation with VTL other than I was a happy owned for a stretch.  I am an MF and AVM dealer.  

Good luck.

I can't speak to Prima Luna amps but I have the Evo 400 preamp. It is a great sounding preamp.  Very deep and wide sound stage with a totally black background and dead quiet. I've rolled in some NOS tubes and the sound is fantastic. I really can't see me buying another preamp. 

Anyone here compared the Prima Luna to Cary?  I understand that Cary is made in the USA and appears well made...  

I am auditioning a PL EVO 400 at the moment and it sounds impressive in some ways, however, it lacks the detail that my ARC separates provide... It also costs about 1/4 as much.  

The PL has an ability to bring the bottom end out of old recordings... some mild bass coloration, yet pleasant to my ears on old rock recordings in particular.  I also have notice that I have been using it for about 10 hrs total time and it has been improving continuously for that period.  There are also tube rolling options that are attractive to a hobbyist gear head like me... we will see.

I'd love to know anyones experience with Cary products?  
They have my curiosity at the moment too... Yes they have to be biased and don't offer quite the tube rolling flex that the PL's do.  Also I don't know of a way to audition them locally.

Currently driving Sonus Faber Olympica II's (4ohm) with the Evo 400 integrated and yes the soundstage is further back than my ARC gear.  
I am hoping to find an integrated if possible to reduce footprint  usage without giving up SQ.  

I have owned numerous ARC products, Tube and SS, in fact still do.  ARC has the musical resolution that I like, at a price... Yes the tubes warm the room... Ok in the winter, not so much in the summer...
I have also owned Musical Fidelity gear and found it to be very musical for SS gear, made in Taiwan... NuVista aerospace mini tubes in some of their gear.

They are a relatively inexpensive China made, mass produced product that sound decent enough and are pretty well put together. Kevin is smart, he has a lot of say into what they are, how they are and what they need to be in so far are as how he sees the needs and wants of the NA market from this semi-upscale-midfi gear. 
They charge a fair price for a pretty good product. Good value proposition for the value buyer that needs a good enough sound. That are happy with the PL sound. It’s a decent enough sound so sure enough many will enjoy it. 
That alone will cover enough people to fuel this little upscale audio cottage industry and fair enough. Not a thing wrong with it. Moreover, he really has done a nice job cultivating this niche in the market. He has expanded the demand by evolving the product offerings and their performance envelope while combining sound marketing with good service and simple to use and safe design. 

Solid stuff business wise. 

The thing is with this hobby there just happen to be people looking for more than that. Some a lot more and others are not. 

Myself, in that price bracket I’d rather buy... hmmm let’s see... VAC, ARC, MAC, CJ, VTL, LAMM, Manley just to name a couple tube brands that are MUCH better in every aspect but that just MO. Yes even used some of these may be more money but just saying. I’ll take a slightly used, late model Honda over a new Kia (one Japanese and one South Korean) any day of the week and twice on Sunday but that’s me. To each their own... 

You’re  in luck OP.  Hot off the press.  Good luck. 
https://parttimeaudiophile.com/2020/12/05/the-best-integrated-amplifiers-buyers-guide-2021/

How about an $100 Yugo? Would that be "great buy at this price point"?

Yes. I paid $402 although that one had aero kit and a few more extras.

I've heard the big PL amps with KT150s driving $60,000 Sonus Fabers and the sound was very good.  Not for detail enthusiasts but lovely sound.  I do not like Mac 275s.  I've heard 4 or 5 of iterations over the years.  Leaves me unsatisfied with a variety of speakers.   I would rather have new Mac SS than the 275.  PLs are very reputable and I know the authorized repairman who said he saw a substantial number (dozens) for repair a few years back but that is only because Kevin Deal sells a boatload of them.  They are very reliable and the latest EVO 400 has premium parts and construction at the price.   Ayon equipment sounds more refined than PL but generally costs much more.  I would rather have Ayon or VAC gear.  I don't have Chinese gear because my gear is from U.S., U.K., Swiss, German, Taiwan and Japan.  No specific reason why it's not from China.  Don't knock PL gear just because it is made in China, it's a U.S. brand and has very good U.S. support.

Because people here are biased against Chinese made products. What they don’t know is how great PL products are. I owned a pair of their 70 watt monoblocks, and drove Martin Logan  CLSiiz’s with them for some of the best sound in my room. There was headroom aplenty. These were 85db speakers which commonly dropped to a 1 ohm load. Zero issues with the amps driving the speakers. People are simply biased, and some are simply audio snobs, which are very very common among the audio community. PL rules. They’ve been around nearly 15 years. What else do you want? To heck with the snobs. 

Quicksilver audio and Decware are two manufacturers I considered when amp shopping. I have efficient speakers, so wattage was not that big of a factor. I ended up with the First Watt J2 and could not be happier. 

@cindcyhound....I have the PL Dialogue HP mono’s (EL34), PL Dialogue Premium pre-amp with Wilson Sophia II speakers. The sound is outstanding IMO and I have no plans on upgrading. I listen to 70’s classic rock, bluegrass, jazz & blues. I think the speaker effeciency is around 87 Db’s. I listen to most of my music in mid to upper 80’s decibels which is around the 11 o’clock position on the volume knob. The PL’s replaced Cary V12 mono’s and SLP80 pre-amp and I much more enjoy the PL’s. Hope this helps you.
David

I bought a lightly used Prima Luna Prologue Classic about 6 months after they were released into the market for about half the price of new. I couldn't be happier. The only mods have been tubes; KT120's and NOS 12AX7 and 12AU7 tubes. I have used the Prologue Classic with a wide variety of speakers and currently have them paired with a set of ProAc's. All have sounded very nice with it. I have never had a single negative issue with this integrated amp. It sounds as good or better than most of the $2000 amps I have ever listened to. There are better integrated amps out there, but you have to pay more for them. I just choose not to because I like what I have despite the fact that I can afford much more expensive gear than I currently use. I really don't care if the amp is designed by Dutch engineers to exact standards and manufactured elsewhere. It's a global market whether we like it or not. 

Sez who? Prima Luna Rocks! Stereophile puts it Class A. I got Dialogue Premium HP Integrated and with the right tubes it is excellent. Drives a variety of speakers I've tried just fine. (Maybe the electrostats not so much.) Right now I have it with Revel F226Be (86dB) and it hangs in with the 4 other pretty decent systems I got going.

Can "Made in America" brands (really: assembled in America) actually claim that every last strand of wire, every electronic component, and every connector was manufactured in the US?

Because Prima Luna isn't that great, even when there are many worst ones (try Line Magnetic, Ming Da, etc)

Say, if Grand Hotel Tremezzo charges you 75 euros a night to stay in their storage closet, would you call this "a great deal", "excellent value at this price point", "best bang for the bucks"?

How about an $100 Yugo?  Would that be "great buy at this price point"?

I once heard an all top-of-the-line PL setup (driving Maggie 20.7 or something like that) at my audiophile friend's place for hours.  He tried all genre of music to impress me about his PL line up.  I truly don't understand the humor.

I own PL Dialogue Four amp, didn't much care for sound in stock form, too solid state for my setup. Modded with Takman carbon resistors, Miflex Kpcu, mundorf film and electrolytic caps, so much better! Newer PL equipment comes with Takmans. I regularly rotate this amp with Coincident Turbo 845 SET and custom built 300B monoblocks (many boutique parts within), different sound, don't feel deprived.

During the process of my diy mods spoke with Upscale tech, very helpful, no judgements of my choices! I've been into guts of much audio equipment (ARC, Cary, CJ, Art Audio and more) over many years, PL very good build quality, good parts layout, nice soldering. Mostly point to point, exception of bias board, whats not to like.
As far as buying Chinese, PL is only built in China, owned by US and European interests. If boycotting Chinese products is your thing, not too many products you can purchase! Virtually every electronic product you can buy contains Chinese made resistors, diodes, capacitors, wire, etc. I've owned a number of Chinese components over the years, never a problem with durability or dealing with Chinese people or business. Perhaps I'm lucky, only issue in dealing with audio people over 30 years has been two Americans. Good and bad people live everywhere.

"Both PrimaLuna and REL are manufactured and
MADE IN CHINA Yes, that REL. Including the reference lines. Get over it. I own both and couldn’t be happier with my gear."

Lot's of denial in here keeferdog.
Much more brands than most think.

Both PrimaLuna and REL are manufactured and 
MADE IN CHINA Yes, that REL. Including the reference lines. Get over it. I own both and couldn’t be happier with my gear. 

This is only my experience and I’m not trashing the brand but my amps had difficulty albeit these were early versions. Not sure if they’ve changed over the years. My local tech is as good as they come and he said the transformers were very poor quality. He said it’s like a beautiful house without a concrete foundation. They sounded slow and sluggish and when trying to drive real world speakers they failed (more than just sonically). They are over marketed as giant killers but with poor transformers their point to point wiring, active bias, quality caps etc only takes them so far. I’m speaking about their monos, not their other gear that I haven’t experienced. You are way better off buying a used tube amp and retube it immediately - it’s the same money!

I think this thread actually shows that there is quite some decent love for PL. Let’s remember Agon is a small subset of an already small subset of the population (audiophiles). There are many happy PL owners out there that wouldn’t even know Agon exists to post their positive impressions.

I find here that many seem happy to compare apples and oranges and convince you one is better than the other. It does depend on your means and the system you are trying to put together. My system, which includes a PL Evo 300 integrated, might be around the $20k mark. It sounds very good to me, and I’ve benchmarked, but it could sound better if I spent $200k, but I would argue it wouldn’t sound 10x better.  That’s PL’s sweet spot: QPR that’s tough to match.

And just for fun, last weekend I brought my PL to my buddy’s house who is running Focal Grand Utopia’s with Mac Monoblocks and a slew of other high end components (think $200k+ system). I really thought swapping in the PL would reveal a lot of weaknesses and might make it look a little ridiculous. It wasn’t. At all. We were both quite surprised at what we heard. Definitely can’t match the speed, transients and power of the Macs, but it tamed the brightness of the Focals and it was very pleasant to listen to, with it really only struggling to drive those big woofers...

Lot of love for the PL here. 

When my main SS amp was sent for service I bought a PL Dialogue HP integrated amp to use. I wanted to try an inexpensive tube amp that was hassle free and easy to sell when my main amp returned. I used it with Wilson Audio Alexia’s. It got me through those two months without being disappointed, but no match for my main amp which costs almost 6 times more.  When my main amp returned, before selling the PL, I tried it in my second system with Wilson Audio WP 7’s. Performed so much better (dynamic, detailed, holographic...) with these speakers, so much so I could not sell it. Still have it. 

As a first time tube amp owner (Muzishare X7- KT88,) I wanted to get back to the warm sounding, lush days of my hippie youth - sans the Lava Lamp. I looked at many tube amplifiers including Primaluna lower end models. The Muzzy was around a grand cheaper through Amazon Prime and it has a headphone jack plus Triode and Ultra Linear mode - which was important to me since I do listen late at night with my wired Grado headphones in the Triode mode. 
Matching your speakers is absolutely imperative with a tube amp. Much more than with a SS amp. I was lucky to score a pair of used Danish, Dali Evidence 470 speakers (4 ohm, 90 dB sensitivity) that were in excellent condition. Maybe folks across the pond can comment on this but it seems to me that European speaker manufacturers take into consideration smaller apartments and houses compared to the U.S.  Therefore, they build speakers that are not as power hungry and are more efficient. At any rate - the Dali 470’s absolutely sing with my Chi-Fi Muzishare tube amp. 
I think you’ll find many dedicated and happy Primaluna owners. You’d be surprised at the number of Chinese components in so called U.S. “built in the U.S.A.” Products. It’s the nature of corporate America to look for the lowest labor and parts cost.  Don’t forget - there are a lot of Korean and Japanese electronic products on the market, as well. The lowest price wins, most of the time, all things being relatively equal. It’s an interconnected world  and if I can buy American, I do. I have love for all my toys no matter where they came from. 

Perhaps the OP mistook the few available negative PrimaLuna posts as representing the population at large.  Perhaps there are a lot more satisfied owners that simply are not posting maybe because PrimaLuna is a relatively established company so much has already been written/posted about their products.    
My experience has been the opposite of the OP - most PrimaLuna reviews have been positive with most agreeing that the engineering, quality parts (not cheap), quality build (again not cheap), and point to point wiring (labor intensive- expensive) make PrimaLuna a good/great value at their price points.  
Although the China comments were a bit off topic, I did appreciate the thoughtful comments like from @jjss49.  People are people - we love our friends and families (warlike Klingons aren’t real), work hard to survive or get ahead, and are less than satisfied with our governmental performance....or lack thereof...  

It seems that there is a lots of love for Primaluna from people who actually listen to it. That is what matters.

The only "negative" is Kevin Deal as far as I can see.

DeKay

I have a Dialogue Premium Pre and PL 7 mono blocks with KT120's into Tekton Double Impacts and am very happy.  Everyone (including some industry pros) who have heard my system were very pleased.  They are built like tanks.  Tube rolling on the pre made a world of difference.  Stock tubes sounded dry and brittle.  I bought everything used and Upscale answered all my questions knowing where they came from.

Apart from the personal sourcing decisions of various people Primaluna offers good performance for the price and good resale possibilities. I had a Dialogue preamp and a Dialogue HP amp paired with Odyssey Kismet speakers. Sounded great.

I used to own a Dialogue Premium HP and thought it was awesome.  It replaced a Cary SLI-80 tube integrated.  The Primaluna blew away the Cary amp, which is made in the U.S.A.  The whole made in China xenophobia thing is a joke IMO.  Buy what you want and don't buy what you don't want, but in honesty some of the biggest hi-fi bargains are made in China.  
I sold my Primaluna amp to buy a Lyngdorf but in retrospect I should have kept the Primaluna.  It's great product at a very good price.  It holds its resale value well and the stuff just works.  I will consider buying their gear again in the future.

I can understand some buyers' reluctance to purchase Chinese made products

This really goes for their output transformers very much so.
 I posted up on page two a graph where the output transformer rings like a bell in the vhf this can sometimes be band-aid fixed (settled a little) by using a **** load of feedback, but doing that is not good.

 Because global feedback is not a good thing and should only be used in small doses as a clean up tool, better off to use local feedback anyway, but that would not have an effect on curing this vhf output ringing.   

Cheers George 

I have to say that I love my PL DiaLogue Premier HP with the stock tubes. It is pared with my Focal Utopia Diablo III's and it is a great combination.  Really makes them sound fantastic.  Other things that I like about it are the hassle-free tube maintenance, auto-biasing, the lights to show a tube failure, switching from Pentode to triode from the remote.  at 75 wpc, it has  enough to drive the Focal's.  I listen to a lost of jazz and classic rock and it handles everything and sounds great.  So there is definitely love going around.  I've even thought of getting another one and switching to monoblock on the back, which put out 150 wpc!

I own a PL Dialog Premium preamp and really like it.  When I plugged it in it for the first time, I finally understood what reviews and listeners referred to as "holographic".  Well made, solidly built.  Recommended if this fits someone's budget.

I can understand some buyers' reluctance to purchase Chinese made products, whether for political reasons or past stigma, but they are doing themselves a disservice by not giving them a try or listening.

I also wouldn't mind giving Line Magnetic a listen.

I have had a PL HP power amp for about 4 years now, purchased used for 3-4K.   I enjoyed tube rolling and auto bias, settling in on various combinations with three different speakers over that time.  Had lots of fun doing so.  Driving Maggies now and am very happy.  I did not consider where the amp was made when I purchased it, and frankly gave it almost no thought afterwards.  at that price point, I have no complaints and would buy it again.
As I have upgraded speakers, pre, DAC, cables, in the past 3 years, everything happened to be American made, and, all things being equal, I would pick the American product.  Next in line for upgrade is the amp, sometime in 2021. Will I look only at American made? Not by choice, but thinking my budget will be 8-10k, I suspect there won’t be any Chinese candidate. 

I was trying to not buy Chinese but then I needed some underwear and a new coat . Gets cold here in Minnesota.
All jokes aside , Chinese CP is terrible ,but the Chinese people are NOT !I have about 20 good Chinese friends in Twin Cites , all Chinese born,am elderly and live alone in a Condo
Almost every day one of them is bringing real Chinese food, fixing whats broke and doing anything I need etc.Their culture is to honor the elderly and ,boy, do they ever.


About half of them are 19-20 old students at U of MN.

I have a primaluna hp power amp driving a pair of focal kanta 2’s and the sound is ethereal. full, round, warm and clear with a soundstage that is deep and wide. my system has never sounded this good. the primaluna weigh a ton and are
built like a tank. I Love Primaluna and anyone who hears them will too.

I have had several Chinese amps sent to me for repair....(Psvane being one) and The manufacturer won't give me the time of day for any support, and I find that quite often with Chinese amps....Which makes some of them irreparable......................

@jjss49  Excellent post, and well said!

The American business community is responsible for foreign manufacturing as their main goal is generally to make as much money as possible (shocking!)...our lobbyist driven government allows this. Note that Apple could make everything in the USA and still be ridiculously profitable (after training some local workers).

Prima Luna is one of the most reviewed (I've never seen a bad review of their stuff) and relentlessly advertised product lines so they don't need any "love" from around here. Sort of accidentally (as I have no beef with China and think keeping the manufacturing connection with the behemoth helps with foreign relations) I own lots of USA made gear including my speakers, piles of Schiit products and my power amp. 

PrimaLuna is good stuff but not great. I’ve done side by side comparisons with their items against some very well regarded items and place PrimaLuna in just a good category. I think you will do completely fine if you purchase their products and build a system with it. But if your a audiophile that only demands the best, then there are many items out there for the same money that will outperform PrimaLuna. I feel their products are made well, look fine and function very good. My friend who owns a lot of their products prefers his other components over PrimaLuna and I agree. But then, I have another friend who’s using PrimaLuna in his system and he’s receiving world class sound. - Bottom line, there’s  absolutely nothing wrong with PrimaLuna products. They can sound wonderful if put together properly.  But standing alone as a single piece, there are better sounding components at same price on the market.  My evaluations that have been done to judge the PrimaLuna line have been done with their line of components in the $5,000 -$8,000 range compared to other brands in the $4,500 - $17,000.  Hope this was helpful.  

I own a pair of PL Prologue 6s monos driving MB Quart Vera floorstanders  VS1F w/ a Jolida fusion dac pre and I am very happy with them.  I use either the JJ EL34s my favorite or Psvane type II Kt88s for an occasional change.  I also have a pair of Carver 350s monos, now the PLs are no 350s but for their price and sound they are very very good.  In the PLs as in the Carvers I changed the front end out to Psvane type IIs and they make a big difference in sound as many others have found out. 

I'm using the DiaLogue Premium HP Power Amplifier with my Revel Ultima Salon2.  Unlikely a speaker load one would expect with PL as its not super efficient.  I do run it with KT150 in ultralinear mode mostly.  I also have a Wells Audio Immorata as my SS amp and comparison.

Sound wise, its been very fine.  Yes - its not a neutral amp in a detailed sense of the word.  But for my listening (wide mix from classical piano thru to industrial electronic) it makes a very listenable and engaging show.  The Wells is very well regarded and probably one of the great underrated and still affordable SS amps - its is also wonderful.  But the PL has nothing to forgive given its price and flexibility in my setup.  I personally love my PL and have no desire to change it out.  Unless I need a real big kick and high transparency and super balanced tonality in my listening day, I tend to keep the PL hooked up - otherwise the Wells.

having lived and worked in asia (and in hong kong and china specifically) for many years over my professional career, i would tell/remind folks:

1. you think america is a big country, lotta people, china is substantially bigger - so many kinds of people, many kinds of business people, greatly varying in professionalism, values and capability - they have a very capitalist mindset and act on economic interest, and are very willing to cut corners if they can get away with it... it is as much a comment on capitalism as it is on the chinese business people

2. chinese government control is pervasive, and self interested, though their chosen path to self interest (essentially self preservation) is to try to improve the economic well being of its populace and expand its reach/status outside the country so its citizens can ’feel proud’ of being chinese - one just needs to understand chinese history over the past couple hundred years to understand why these buttons are very effectively pushed by the government in gaining the support of the population

3. yes, rights of free speech and protest are not available to chinese citizens and the government does extreme and heavy handed things to protect its position and quash ’unrest’ as it sees it - no doubt about it; furthermore chinese government sponsors a very ’aggressive’ approach to gaining intellectual capital it does not have - a real problem for ’more advanced’ countries who develop that capital, and the chinese need to be actively deterred on this front

4. many many foreign ventures exist in china, though they usually have at least a minority chinese interest, not to mention sourcing agreements by non chinese companies to take advantage of lower costs of production compared to home countries the foreigners could try to make their products in

5. so it is true that if you buy something that is made in china, or made with parts inside that are made in china, the chinese government and chinese people (indirectly) benefit - but is it practical for us as consumers to stop this, given the extent of globalization -- of how so much of the world’s gdp is manufactured in a global/multinational supply chain? my personal feeling is no... china as a country and its government has to be contended with by the US, EU and Japan/Korea at the geo-political and geo-economic policy levels... which is leadership of these countries and alliances among them are so critical in this time

6. we should not forget that in america, there are many many people who work at wage rates they cannot really live on, and there is tremendous oppression in that sense too -- yes americans have ’freedoms’ the chinese do not have, but at the end of the day, what are the prospects for these unfortunate americans to live better lives?  my point is there is much injustice in this country as well, which i don’t need to enumerate - what has happened in this country in recent years certainly weakens our standing to call out how oppressive regimes like the one in china operates, as offensive as they are to our sensibilities

said my bit here with this, thanks for your patience, now back to normal programming...

@rushfan71

I would think a thread like this would also be an opportunity for the unhappy PL owners to voice their issues with PL as well.
I'd like to hear from them, and I'm not talking about system synergy issues.

That's right! Every discussion I've seen on them has never contained complaints about the equipment, just not matching the speakers. The only negative stuff is all political in nature.
I own a Dialogue Premium Preamp and dialogue Premium HP mono-blocks. They drive my 85 dB speakers just fine. I rolled KT 150s into the amps and feel blessed that I have such good detail and sound stage for so little money. The best value and sound. You gotta love it.

+1 for PrimaLuna

Since I started in this hobby I’ve owned a dozen or so tube amps - integrated, stereo and mono. I’ve also owned ss amps - currently Pass Labs XA60.5.
By far the best amp was the Manley Stingray integrated. Not sure why it sounds so great. Maybe it’s the EL84 output tubes and the custom output transformers. They say EL84s are even better sounding than EL34s.
Made in USA, probably with many foreign parts ... just like “American” cars. Speakers are pretty effificient. Very solid bass and sweet midrange and highs.
I wouldn’t hesitate to buy one of the new Prima Lunas, however. They sounded really fine at a local dealer.

I have love for PL . I had two PL HPs and sold one and replaced for a Roger's High Fidelity to better drive 86 db speakers. The one I kept drives 92 db speakers. 

Like with so many things if the AMP/speakers mesh well then sit back and enjoy the music.

Also PL is no longer the new kid on the block so maybe that's what the OP is picking up on. The latest and greatest may be better or just more noise. YMMV.