I own a PL Evo 300 preamp and like it a lot. That said, I'm going to go with a SS amp too drive my Harbeths.
Why is there no love for Prima Luna?
I have noticed fairly negative comments on Prima Luna in various discussions. Granted, I’ve never heard their gear but they seem to offer quite a value proposition. Point to point wiring, auto bias, protection circuits, easy tube rolling, good parts and build quality. I had considered looking into the Evo series integrated but the brand seems to be downplayed on this forum. Anyone have direct experience as to why?
192 responses Add your response
I have owned the PL EVO 400 preamp, for 4 months. My system has never sounded better, to my ears. I also auditioned the Dialouge premium HP integrated. I sent it back, because if tube failure. The unit performed great in my system. After sending it back, zi missed it so much, I auditioned the evo 400. It still have it. Only your ears in your system , can be the judge. Audition the evo 400 preamplifier in your system , fir up to 60 days. The only risk is the return shipping cost. Don't listen to the haters, or the non owners of the product. |
I’m not sure where the op is seeing all these negative comments on PL. Possible troll? This post could be for any product, how about next time ask: Why is there no love for [Insert product name here]? I bought a Dialogue One from Kevin over 10 years ago, based on audition and price / performance. The brand reputation wasn’t as strong then, I just trusted my ears. China was more of a non-issue at the time, so it wasn’t a consideration. Re quality, It’s been in my office system for years, turned on most days all day. Anecdotal, but I figure it must have 25,000 hours on it, zero problems. Tube changes, that’s it. Paired with high efficiency speakers, still sounds great. |
Any fans of the EVO400 preamp? I am thinking of getting into tubes and so far what I've seen and read about it is impressive. I also got a lot of push back on our sonic visions discord with people claiming Prima luna sucks or is junk or not worth it/overpriced. I think they prefer custom SE builds from designers. What I like about prima luna though is likely there is definitely some demand for it if I need to sell and I like how polished it is and seemingly well made (52 lbs !). When I look at some of the recommendations they have, many of them look very well made as well, but some of them are like an empty box with a few PCBs and some tubes... and they weigh 15 lbs? Im not saying weight = quality... but I dunno it makes me skeptical. Now of course I have to listen to it but based on everything I read its an exceptional preamp worth the money. |
| Post removed |
Why is there no love for Prima Luna? I had a PL Prologue Premium preamp and it allowed me to hear into the music with Maggie 3.6's. I traded up to the Dialogue Premium preamp and I lost that. I went to Thiel CS5i's with a DNA-500 and could never make the Dialogue Premium sound musical no matter what tubes are tried. Just too analytical for my taste. You could "see" the spit on the microphone but not hear the splash when it hit. I sold it and the new owner is loving it.... Different strokes I guess. |
Anthony Christiaan Winand Staring was a poet born in 1767 and died in 1840. So presumably he is already dead as well. He wrote the poem below. If in life he could have written it in the year 2021, no, better, it is of all times! THE MASTER AND THE PUPIL
The master in his wisdom guesses. |
I've owned at various times a PL3, PL7 Monoblocks, and Dialogue Premium Pre. All were excellent sounding and completely reliable. Responded well to tube rolling and the changes to the sound as you could hear the tubes breaking in over the first 100 hours of use is a testament to the transparency of the products. Also held their value very well on the used market. I would buy their products again in a heartbeat. I've read all the reviews, and very few 'owners' have negative things to say about the products. |
@tablejockey , So I ordered two (2) .22uF V-Cap CuTF Series capacitors. They are copper foil and fluoropolymer film. I removed the two small caps on the two center gain tubes (the center, innermost two preamp tubes). The layout on the HP integrated is clean but it’s totally stuffed into the chassis. This was a 30 minute project because I had to move slowly working in tight quarters. I would like to swap the caps linked on each of the power tube sockets. However, they left very, very little room to do so in the HP integrated. The stock DuRoche caps are quite small --likely .5" diameter by 1" long. I cannot seem to find many options that will fit in these spots. I’m down to Audience Auricap XO, maybe Audio Note (they are all sold out) or maybe I can fit Jantzens. My first choice was MiFlex but they won’t fit without some magic. Same drill with Jupiters. But, Audience Auricap XOs are great caps and they are very likely better than the stock ones. There are two film caps linked to each of the two massive Nichicons on the power supply. Those are the easiest swap. I’m just not sure how much upgrading these will make. I’ll try these next. I’m very much open to suggestions on make and model for these. And yes, the V-Cap CuTFs on the preamp gain sockets sound great! I don’t like their price but I do like their sound. :) |
| Post removed |
| Post removed |
Before I had a chance to read this post, I thought everybody loves PL. Well, I guess not. I sold PrimaLuna ProLogue 3 preamp at $1050 two years ago, which was about $1300 15 years ago. Are there many tube gears that hold that much of values? Well, I don't consider PL like other products you can only directly buy from China. Many of them have reliability issues. I must admit that the made in China logo on PL bothers me a bit, but for the quality and service, PL is as good as any established Western made products. For the sound, it is very subjective. Can you name any audio gears that are universally accepted as a holy grail? (Well, I guess I can name one which is close -- Apogee Diva. But it was too big for my room and sold it, and kinda regret it.) |
@tablejockey, Hey there, I just opened my PL Dialoge HP Integrated. A slightly different layout than the amp version. But still essentially the same. I'm going to leave the caps on the tube sockets alone for now. Instead, since mine has its own preamp, I'm going to pull the lower end Mundorfs from the two center preamp tubes and replace with V-Cap CuTF .22uf - Matched .5% pairs. This is a ~$300 upgrade--in keeping with money we spend on tubes and wires. Further, swapping these two caps is (a) likely to have the most impact; (b) the Mundorfs they replace are not high end--decent but not high end; and (c) they are an easy swap given their positioning and long leads covered in clear teflon. Tablejockey, I think you have an integrated too, am I right? I ordered the V-Caps today. I'll get them in this week and let you know my thoughts. FYI--I sold my Klipsch Forte IIIs and upgraded to Cornwall IVs, but I have no idea when Music Direct will get them here. |
I've had my PL Dialogue HP Integrated for a few years now and love it. It powers my Martin Logan Summit X speakers perfectly. A while ago I replaced the front four preamp tubes with Mullard CV-4003s and the difference from the PL tunes was noticed. I recently moved those four 4003 tubes to the last positions, and put new JJ Gold 12AU7s and I have to tell you, it opened up the system. Happy I made that change! I want to replace the EL-34 tubes just for tweaking's sake, but that's a lot of money and I like the sound. If I do, I'll probably stay with EL-34s. I don't need more power from new tubes, so perhaps I'll try the JJs or Tung-Sol EL-34Bs. Lots of options to choose from, though. Any opinions? I also use the Home Theater input for HT, but we moved to a new home recently and now my old Pioneer Elite amp seems to be causing a hum in all speakers when it's turned on. It's fed by an OPPO 105D, but I don't think the hum is from the OPPO. The OPPO was modified by Ric Schultz and it sounds great when listening via the Spdif through the DAC or direct to the PL. Frustrating, but I'll figure it out. That's part of the fun. In our new house, my system sits in a sort of alcove that's 24 inches deep. I just installed Aucousticmac corner bass traps on the inside verticle corners, which was another improvement. I didn't know it when we bought the house, but all working is 12-gage and the panel is all 20-amp fuses. Each side of the entertainment area is on a separate circuit, so lots of clean power. I have a 20-amp Furman Elite power conditioner, so I'm able to take advantage of it too! The house is hard wired with LAN too. LAN signal:
Cables are:
Hope everyone is staying safe and has a wonderful Holiday season! Steve |
"there is something significant missing from my PrimaLuna Evo 300 integrated, which replaced my Cary amp and preamp." I would hope ANY decent amp/preamp combo is "better" than a value integrated unit. It doesn't seem to be a reasonable expectation the PL integrated should outshine a Cary amp/preamp setup. "I would not put any more money in trying to get the PL to fit your sound desire. Just unload it." Agreed. Any piece of equipment is going to have a fundamental "sound" to determine if it's a keeper. I have interest of possibly tweaking my PL from a curiosity/hobbyist perspective. |
Audiomerk, I would not put any more money in trying to get the PL to fit your sound desire. Just unload it. Thru the years I have learned, If one cannot dial in an audio component to satisfying sound quickly (maybe change the first set of tubes), then its not ever going to work. I've read posts where people feel there's something missing on an expensive amp and then try to make it sound right with expensive power cables, etc. Sorry, especially for SS amps, if the general sound character you want is not there out of the box and after a day or two......its not going to happen. |
I cannot address the OPs question about love or lack of for Primaluna, as I don't frequent audio watering holes. However, I can say that from a nearly objective standpoint, there is something significant missing from my PrimaLuna Evo 300 integrated, which replaced my Cary amp and preamp. In the Evo 300 I went through several iterations of tubes, settling on real Mullard EL34s and some great NOS 12AU7 from WWII, and while things have certainly gotten better, there is something lacking. I tried looking for a new level of synergy, as everything else in my system was built around the previous amp and preamp, so I have changed speaker cables, speakers, output impedance, interconnects, cd players, and DACs, and there is just no way to avoid the fact that this is a different presentation than my previously favored Cary amp and preamp (these are old but upgraded units). I am going to repair the Cary amp (my bad) and go back to where I once was: more energetic, more vivid, and more enjoyable music. |
@tablejockey Exactly. And he goes through all the variations pretty well. Made in China...with parts from elsewhere; made in America, with parts from elsewhere, including China; etc. Global economy, interdependent manufacturing, etc. There's a high cost to low prices and, in audio, there's a high cost for even high prices! |
Speaking of Chinese gear...Possibly of interest. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rvQkJYKYw0o&t=3s&ab_channel=TheNextBestThingStudio |
audiophiliac steve guttenberg just named the 2.3 wpc (that's two point three watts per channel) decware triode amp his 2020 product of the year, tells everyone don’t worry about power ratings, if you live in an apartment or don’t listen to music loud, just buy it you will be happy https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oWA5txLQCvg&t=604s hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha |
Dducat i have looked at the decware online but have not heard it. Reasonably priced too! There is a lot of good tube gear out there now making it hard to decide which way to go. Many options to trial at home, but that still involves shipping costs and sometimes restocking fees. Still better than a blind purchase, but definitely want to narrow field before trying them out. First step though would be to decide on speakers I want and purchase them. Then I could compare them all the same. Still wavering on integrated VS separates. Then we have dac & streamer to figure out .,,,.. |
Cincy is pretty much closed up with the pandemic. I’m working from home and not going much of anywhere. At least it affords me time to research and dream about the new system I’m planning to get. Of course I’ve been in love with a different shiny toy every few days. Sooner or later I’m bound to nail down at least one component. Likely choose speakers first then work backwards toward the source. Same here In Columbus. I'm doing research on some sort of component daily. |
Cincy is pretty much closed up with the pandemic. I’m working from home and not going much of anywhere. At least it affords me time to research and dream about the new system I’m planning to get. Of course I’ve been in love with a different shiny toy every few days. Sooner or later I’m bound to nail down at least one component. Likely choose speakers first then work backwards toward the source. |
@tablejockey, the caps you would want to swap out are those hooked to the tube sockets. Take a look here: https://www.v-cap.com/zsolt-andrasy-primaluna-dialog-premium.php The v-caps used in that mod are supposed to be great. I know Victor of Elekit "fame" now uses them as their 300B upgrade (previously used Mundorf). |
@tablejockey , I think that photo you linked to caused me confusion before. PL lists Mundorf capacitors yet the photo has DuRoche or SCR caps I think. I also think PL switch from DuRoche to Mundorf at some point. At any rate, at one point (a year ago) I opened mine up to do some cleaning and take a look around. I thought swapping caps was tougher than it should be because the case was really stuffed with parts. Maybe I'll open it again and take a look. I, too, wanted to upgrade caps. I have no issue with PL making decisions to limit part cost--they all do it. I would love to use these Polish caps -- they are moving into the radar out there and have gotten more expensive. https://www.partsconnexion.com/miflex.html. I think Don Sachs uses these too. |
| Post removed |
Cincyhound....I thought Popiel founded Ronco...I could be wrong. The pocket fisherman was a hit with some. My buddy, who was into fishing, tells a story when him and another buddy were teenagers. They drove to a local lake and my buddy had a big Zebco fishing rod/reel. Fancy set up. My other buddy just has his grandpa's pocket fisherman. Guess which one had fish biting all day. |
You’re in luck OP. Hot off the press. Good luck. The Pass and Rossi would be my choice if $$ were not an issue. Those pieces are beautiful to look at. I know this is total rubbish, however, the Ayon’s (which are nice units) reputation dwindles (with me) due to all the ads for USA Tube Audio here on AG, etc. PL is not far behind. Kind of like Adcom back in the day. Everywhere you look.....an ad. Again, that does not make the products inferior....and I know advertising is a must.....It’s almost like a ’Ronco effect" or "as seen on TV effect" (people my age will know what Ronco was).....everywhere you look. Again, it’s petty on my part....however, I’m just being honest. It must work or the ads would not be popping up everywhere |
I disagree that it’s US greed, rather, it’s the nature of living in a capitalist society in which businesses are encouraged to compete to drive down prices. Generally speaking, businesses are driven to maximize revenue while minimizing costs. Labor costs are usually one if not the largest expense in manufacturing. We live in a world economy. If we kept labor in the US, the significantly higher labor costs would have to be passed on to the consumer meaning higher prices. These higher prices would significantly negatively affect sales both here and abroad due to lower price competitive products. The reduced sales is opposite of the typical business who goal is to increase sales/profits. We all want lower priced quality products, but this is heavily dependent on controlling manufacturing costs. |
