Why high-end cable manufacturers don't post measurements?

Coz it is mostly snake oil. 

Mr. glupson

Dayan was a big art (archaeology) thief. Mayby, the bigger in Israel ever.

Well, cables recommended did have a larger than common cross section.
Yes, it is a bit tricky to connect such a cable to the Amp and Speakers binding posts. But it is solvable. There are plenty of ways, most involve a short tail, of a less thick cable (like # 8 awg).
The difficulty should not be an obstacle in your way to get better sound.
Really better.
The #14 or #12 awg cables (most of them in the speakers cable market), are convenient to work with, but they do not do the job and do not sound good.

I agree that cables now play a large role in the final sound. But..does this justify the prices of some cables, Do you get value for your money? I'm not so sure. Don't know if exposing the measurements will help our decisions.

^^^^You don’t have to spend mega bucks to obtain high quality cables. There are plenty of cable brands that offers great value for your money.  Look into Audio Envy...they were the end game cables for me. 

Do they still put batteries in cable? I know that was very popular at one time.

They probably do but it would be so complicated  and confusing  .That you need to be an Techinal Engineer to understand it.

Purist does post some measurements - resistance and capacitance, although not inductance.  I think they also make some excellent cables. 

@tobor007 

Do they still put batteries in cable?

That was an Audioquest thing and they are apparently still doing it.  A description and link to a white paper follow.  Believing is up to you.

DIELECTRIC-BIAS SYSTEM WITH RADIO FREQUENCY TRAP
All insulation between two or more conductors is also a dielectric whose properties will affect the integrity of the signal. When the dielectric is unbiased, dielectric-involvement (absorption and non-linear release of energy) causes different amounts of time delay (phase shift) for different frequencies and energy levels, which is a real problem for very time-sensitive multi-octave audio. The inclusion of an RF Trap (developed for AudioQuest’s Niagara Series of power products), ensures that radio-frequency noise will not be induced into the signal conductors from the DBS field elements. (DBS, US Pat #s 7,126,055 & 7,872,195 B1)

http://tools.audioquest.com/downloads/literature/learning_modules/Dielectric-Bias-System_(DBS).pdf

System dependent so try before you commit!  Start low and move up slowly till desired result achieved.

Start low and move up slowly till desired result achieved.

Cost has ZERO correlation to sonic quality as RESULTS ARE DEPENDENT ON THE REST OF THE SYSTEM!

Why bother with tiny batteries attached to tiny cables when you can just get battery cables instead?

Hilarious how all of you ignored the only gold nugget in this thread posted by  elliottbnewcombjr

I chose to believe in the concept of small diameter, individually insulated multi-strand, to minimize the 'Skin' effect of single or twisted strands of non-insulated small diameter strands. (Cat 5 like, what I use)

excerpt:

" Skin effect in audio cables is the tendency for high frequency signals to travel more on the surface than in the center of the conductor, as if the conductor were a hollow metal pipe.[3] This tendency, caused by self-inductance, makes the cable more resistant at higher frequencies, diminishing its ability to transmit high frequencies with as much power as low frequencies. As cable conductors increase in diameter they have less overall resistance but increased skin effect."

That's right!  Cat 5 or 6 is as good as money can buy!

But, it's easier to be fooled than believe you've been fooled (and robbed blind).

The Wizard of Oz will get back to you on that one. 

First the disclosure. I am an engineer and I have been working in the research and development of technical products since the early 70's. One of the issues that always comes up is "why is your product better" and a few people will ask "can you put a number on it".

Audio products present a unique challenge, everyone has an opinion on what is best. So, how do you even go about developing a scale of "goodness" when there is no agreement on what is good. When you consider basics like impedance it is not difficult to produce a cable that meets the requirements to perform the basic function of transmitting a signal well, so why bother publishing this information. On the other hand, why would an engineer tell anyone, outside of the decision group, about any measurements which may be useful in developing a competing product?

If you have ever been involved in doing blind testing to determine the performance level of a system, you are probably aware of the difficulties in analyzing such data. There are ways to do this type of analysis, using such an analysis in developing a scale which will predict the performance of a system is more than a little elusive. Maybe, just maybe, a study of the history of the development of cables will yield some insight into this issue. The major issue in developing a scale is, what is better in terms of the performance.

Mr. audio-union

I’m also in the R&D of technical products since the early 80’s.
I have Analog boards in the IEFCC of the F-16 and more.
The point with Speaker Cables, is that no one ever figured out what should they be like. All use a #12 or #14 awg wire, just because it’s easy to work with, and tell some voodoo tells about why it is special. Well, it's NOT!
Even sport shoes have more variety than that.

The correct way to fit a Speaker Cables is to calculate its resistance value, vs length and the Amp’s DF. As you claim to be an engineer and work in R&D, I assume that every design of your went to a calculation phas, Proof of Design (POD) and a process of Design reviews: PDR, CDP etc’.
This is a simple and most required process to get the right cable at the first attempt. Just as our designs were. I can not imagine an airborne unit to be made and tested as a speaker cable. For an R&D engineer, its a shame.

And here is the problem. Why is it that you cannot have a civil convo, instead of attacking and degrading someone who seems to have different ideas than you. That’s what seems to be the shame. B4, I did not not hear any mention of testing involving listening, or tuning based on the listening results. Are you trying to say that cable manufacturers do not do this, or maybe your field of expertise is not in the audio cable business so you are not familiar with is part of the process. The engineering done at a cable manufacturer isn’t done to just meet some numbers they’re trying to reach and your post seems to indicate, but instead it designed to meet some goals they set at the start of the design process in terms of what they are trying to improve upon, meaning the sound. That’s the end goal, or at least I would hope should be with a cable. The engineering is done to meet those goals. They may set a measurement they are trying to hit to achieve that goal, but once they do, it will still go to the listening phase to see if they did achieve the desired results. As anyone who has dealt with a very high performance race engine knows ( a hobby for me), the measurements can help greatly, but sometimes it’s our understanding of what they mean that is at issue. Sometimes you will find that the numbers don’t get the expected results, and when in the end something different works, we have to then come up with the logic that explains why. There is an explanation, and usually it’s because there are so many variables that we find a new variable affected things in a way we did not realize it would. If you refuse to even consider variables past a preset list, you may forever be stuck at the same point. Not exactly on the same point now, but still relevant to many who post about such things. 

speedbump6, it sounds to me like you understand the difference between the numbers and test performance performance and the search is to figure out what is not being taken into account in the calculations. From my work on cable design I have found there are some factors (if you think of it as a factor in an equation system) which influence the perceived performance, but are not commonly taught in engineering classes. 

In the case of audio, not ever one likes the same thing. So, sell customers what they want or don't bother with that particular customer at all. I often pass on particular customers completely, but I may ask them if they have experienced I particular design they might like even when it is not my design. I try to be helpful when I can, but only if I think the potential customer may appreciate it.

Racing was a hobby of mine, to old for it now.

@audio-union
Very interesting comments.  It would absolutely be a challenge, perhaps impossible, to analyze blind testing data to develop a scale to predict system performance.  However, I don't think that's what double blind testing is really about.  It is about whether you can reliably (consistently) hear a difference between two things - something that can be reported flawlessly and which many audio product claims fail.

Lostinseattle, I agree with your comments. With the addition, you need a scale to measure the skill level of people doing the testing, in this case it also helps if you do a hearing tests on the people doing the scoring, and you also need to understand what a particular person appreciates. The subject gets to be complicated in a hurry, but not unmanageable. Connecting blind test data to engineering measurements is the hard part, but in some cases it is well known. I read these blogs because occasional someone will make a comment that adds one more layer to the problem. The idea is to get your arms around as much information and ideas as possible and continue to search for more.

Audio, exactly correct. To me, this is simple logic, and so many people let their emotions or preconceptions color their ideas. They become entrenched in a position. Some will say I’m not open because I don’t agree with their more limited views on a subject, and that I don’t agree that their position must be inscribed in stone.

Regarding skin effect, I found this article from Belden:  https://www.belden.com/blog/broadcast/understanding-skin-effect-and-frequency

I would trust them far more than anything on Wiki, for authors and writers it is not considered a reliable source of information.

You can draw your own conclusions from the article.

Belden certainly publishes all the standard measurements with their Iconoclast cables.

Mr. twoleftears

Belden make so many cables, of different AWG.
Which one is the one for me, for you or for some other?
Which of the data published, is the one (or more) I need to look at to make that choice?
What is my system’s parameter, that would make me pick that one?

As you have no idea, nor others, nor the cable makers including your admired Belden, you offer in every post of yours, What good that data is for you?

Which one is the one for me, for you or for some other?

As I said before, do the math.

A great problem in audio is ignorance of even the most fundamental concepts which makes consumers easy prey for charlatans. I might tell you what I have and why it works for me, but any recommendation with out hearing your system in your space is idiotic. IMO, this is what gave rise to burn-in.

Far too many systems are nothing but HiFi Jewelry and completely incapable of presenting a reasonable facsimile of the source material. Badly flawed source leads to badly flawed systems. You may like but a 6 foot hi-hat or solo vocal extending from speaker to speaker, but they are grossly wrong.

EVERY SPECIFIC RECOMMENDATION ON LINE IS WORTHLESS!!!

Then why are you here, to thumb your nose at people for ignoring those words of wisdom? You must have something much more important to do than saving our poor souls from audio purgatory. 

I’m not thumbing my nose at anyone. I’m a retired recording, electronic and software engineer.

The first thing an engineer does is get the requirements. I flew all over the world to have a look-see before making recommendations.

So when JoHiFi recommends his XYZ, without knowing anything about a room, the other components and user peccadillos, it just useless 0’s and 1’s.

Case in point: "The Naim series like the nd5xs2 is great at about 3500 ( I own one of these), and the Araulic Vega series, g1 is about 3500 I believe and I Just purchased their g2.1 which runs 6900.00. Both those are very easy to use also, which is important to me." So said speedbump6 in https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/can-anyone-recommend-a-good-streamer-dac

To be fair, originators of "Can anyone recommend..." deserve the nonsense they receive. Most of these topics contain "I can spend..." and ZERO about music!!!!

Our audio acuity is much more complex than the current science can define.

It can be easily empirically and consistency proven that cables measuring the same usually sound different. Also, we don’t buy cables based on measurements, rather, we buy them for the change/uptick in sonic performance. For some, measurements may be a deciding factor to reject a cable, but for most it’s the performance that’s the main issue.

Like most/all of you, I don’t “like” paying for cables above the box store prices, but I realize that increased performance comes with increase prices, and the law of diminishing returns also play a major role.

Some folks look at the sum of cable parts to equate the retail cost, but reality doesn’t work this way. Supply and demand is what dictates the market. Besides, it’s the “performance” that really matters to your audio chain.

Some bemoan that some cables are expensive, compared to what? They’re leaving out a main consideration/ingredient: performance.
It’s the price/performance that really matters when we evaluate products.

Do cable manufacturers artificially jack up prices without a corresponding increase in performance? I’d say generally no. Even at elevated price levels, there is still a lot of market competition applying downward pressure in prices. Besides, even if you run into a manufacturer jacking up prices based on fluff, they would very quickly be revealed on forums and social media devastating their reputation and their business sales.

Also, many/most of the people purchasing so called expensive cables are highly educated and have lucrative professions. In addition to purchasing expensive gear, they also upgrade their cables to prevent/minimize audio performance bottlenecks. Just because they can afford expensive cables, doesn’t mean they have a bottomless pocketbook - they have to budget as well. These professionals aren’t easily fooled by marketing hype, rather, they scrutinized their purchases as we all do.

Can you get an expensive cable’s performance at a cheaper price? I wish, along with my pocketbook. For 4 years I’ve been researching audio cables trying to maximize bang/buck while minimizing the sacrificing of audio quality.

Is the price/performance worth it? It subjectively varies per individual, no one can speak for all. If it is yes, then the pocketbook pain is more than compensated by the uptick in audio performance and thus audio enjoyment- not the worst way to spend $.

Ieales, Kenny seems to understand something you do not. From your words it seems there’s a bit of envy over people being able to spend. I’m sure as many do, there will be denial, but your own words seem to tell a part of the story. Might not be the whole story of course. So again, you’re here to thumb your nose, there is no reason for this forum, or any of its kind, based on your assessment. So we should turn this into a discussion of checkers strategy maybe? Many of us here are intrested in dialog about products, each other’s opinions and suggestions. For the most part I’ll have to disagree with your views. Equipment can be adjusted in setup for a room, and the underlying sound of the product will still be there. Room treatments will make a difference in what and how well we hear it, along with some common sense as far as size and power, scales properly to room size, though there are ways to adjust for this somewhat, and also as always, boils down to personal preference. There is no way to listen to every possible combination of products in our own environments, so it takes some reading, determining what characteristics are most important to us, and some trial and error. The more “ opinions” we get, and ones that seem to confirm each other, the more reliable we can expect the results in our homes to be. I’ve also found that sometimes what I thought I wanted in a sound, was not what I really wanted. Also I know I like many different sounds, so no one sound will ever satisfy me completely. I’m sorry,  it I, and likely the majority of us, would have no interest in your idea that all opinions are worthless, and therefore by extending that type of logic, this forum should be disbanded. You’re always free to do as you personally wish of course, but I wouldn’t expect others to follow in your footsteps. Even the ones who disagree with me about cables and Tekton I don’t think would go so far as to say there is no room for opinions because they’re worthless. If you truly felt that way, I don’t believe you’d be on this forum at all. It’s a waste of time based on that idea.

"I can not imagine an airborne unit to be made and tested as a speaker cable."

Was this really sypposed to be comparable in any way?

"Belden make so many cables, of different AWG.
Which one is the one for me, for you or for some other?"

0, or even 00.

This whole thread is fake and based on a total misrepresentation and false premise. Every speaker cable manufacturer publishes their cable measurements. Otherwise, how would you know if you were buying 8 feet or only 6?

Mr. millercarbon

The way to make that choice, of 6' or 8' is the distance between your Amp. and speakers. 
What the speaker cable manufacturer has to with it?

Mr. glupson

It’s obvious that you have nothing smart to say, so you use derogatory language.
#0 or #00 or #000, yes. Most cables out there are #12 - #14 awg and are insufficient for higher DF SS Amps.
Yes, they are cheap to make and easier than doing a #0 awg cable.
I just made one this Sat. It is difficult to work with such a cable (#0 awg). I had to fight with it a half day to get it done.
Also materials are more expensive. They waight 1.85 kg. each (x4).
Design issues. A MIL STD or airborne unit MUST go through some maticolouse design phases. It shall assure a perfect product.
The way today speaker cables are made, is the worst. Nothing is professional. A big shame for all involved.

b4icu,

"It’s obvious that you have nothing smart to say, so you use derogatory language."

Thanks for this derogatory comment before you even attempted to say anything smart.

My comment about 0, or even 00, was based on following your other thread. If you found that observation derogatory, maybe it is time that you change your calculations.

Why don’t you just repeat that whole thread? Ask people again about their amplifiers and calculate what gauge cable they would need. Then go and hide for a year again.

Mr.  glupson

I do not hide. I didn't see any reason to keep fighting there not friendly dealers at a time no more were interested to try it.
I'd returned and will as many times as I like. Any problems with that?
If Amp's DF is high, at 9' length, a #0 or #00 is required.
So suggest the calculation, so it improves the sound.
I wonder, how come you never tried it, and still keep nugging. 
Do it (DIY) and then come back and say your say.

Nugging? 

Did someone invent a new word while I was at meat bingo?

From your words it seems there’s a bit of envy over people being able to spend.

ROTFLMFAO! 35 years ago I had $25k+ expended. Today, I could spend $$$$, but since $$$$ has ZERO correlation to musicality, why would I? Do I get a pass for having ≈$5k in speaker cables for my Tri-Amped system?

The more “ opinions” we get, and ones that seem to confirm each other, the more reliable we can expect the results in our homes to be.

You miss the point. Most recommendations are by fan-boy owners. Judging by what I hear in high shops of products recommended here, most systems are terrible at the parameters I value. Conversely, my recommendations would fall on deaf ears. Literally!

It is impossible for anyone to advise on performance of a component vis a vis another in a system other than their own.

Last year, I auditioned some $6k & $12k balanced interconnect cables in a fine dealer system. All Mac electronics, B&W 80?, dual REL subs. A very good system, one I could easily enjoy. Swapping in the $12k between the pre & power amps destroyed the sound field. It sounded like I'd put two graphic equalizers in series, alternated boost & cut and then reversed on the 2nd. Time coherence was destroyed! UNLISTENABLE!!

You might ask, "How did I know which was correct?"

I recorded and mixed the music, receiving a Grammy nomination for my trouble.

b4icu,

"I’d returned and will as many times as I like. Any problems with that?"

Not at all,

"If Amp’s DF is high, at 9’ length, a #0 or #00 is required.
So suggest the calculation, so it improves the sound."

Notice that my observation seems to have been correct. 0, or even 00. I wonder, how come you never noticed it, and still keep nugging.

I have never tried 0, or 00, cables. As you noticed, they are quite inconvenient to work with. Not to mention that I am suspicious about the idea of finishing a thick cable with a thin cable and then pretending it is all thick cable. I may be wrong about that, but I am not wrong about the weight of the cable, connections, and other practical issues, potentially introducing more problems than solving them.

As a side note, my speaker cables are gauge 9 or 10 (I forgot), were in $100-200 range for 2m, and are made by an "audio company". They look very professionally put together. Much more professionally than 0 with a thin strip at the end. Notice that they are not 12 or 14.

EDIT: They are 11, not 9 or 10.

You assume anyone who praises a product is a fan boy, and I have found that if people Did not hear what they expected with a product they are ver vocal about it in a negative way. They will try to return it, or sell it to try something else. I’m sure there’s a small number of fanboys just as there are those who do what you do, and deny all positive reviews. I don’t believe anyone has said that every product works well in every system, in fact, just the opposite. Plus we all like different sounds, more bright, less bright, warm, detailed, etc. thats why there will always be the part where we have to listen, all the measurements won’t give us the final answer. I’m happy for the success you have achieved in your field, but dosnt mean you’re any more correct than anyone else might be. There are engineers on here that will try to proclaim they’re the ones with the knowledge also. I don’t care for some Grammy winners at all, so dosnt mean their style works for me because of their award. In every field there are constants and ideas to build upon. If there weren’t I don’t think we would have evolved very far in any field that worked how you describe. I know for a fact that I can speak to engineers in your field and would find a consensus on certain things and how to approach them without having to start from scratch in every studio, with each genre. So no, we won’t be throwing out reviews, past discoveries and findings, because they are relevant. But as previously mentioned, if it works for you, then by all means. It’s your time, your enjoyment, and your hobby, assuming you are involved in this end of things. 

glupson 08-05-2020 8:48pm

It is only partially true. Most of the manufacturers I have seen do post measurements. Of the length. Some, rare ones I think, do even post gauge. That would be about it, but is hard to catch them saying "never post measurements".

millercarbon 08-09-2020 3:20am

This whole thread is fake and based on a total misrepresentation and false premise. Every speaker cable manufacturer publishes their cable measurements. Otherwise, how would you know if you were buying 8 feet or only 6?

I am honored. I just wrote it with a little less strong words.

@glupson 00 welder's cable is much more flexible than battery cable, but it's still tough to poke the ends into those inadequate spade connectors.

@b4icu Who said I admired Belden?  Belden is one of the biggest manufacturers of bulk cable, of all kinds, shapes, sizes, and price points.  Iconoclast happens to be their most expensive model and the one clearly and very directly aimed at audiophiles.  Hence my observation that in this case, measurements + audiophilia did mix.

Now if only all amplifier manufacturers would publish (accurate) damping factors, all would be hunky-dory.  Right?

The original thread was much more entertaining. This is only from the first page...

"0 AWG? Call in the crane." (with a link to a 1000 ft of some thick wire shipping only to a commercial address)

"We want to listen to speakers, not jump start them."

"It might be a good idea to push the bong aside for a few days so you can get back in touch with reality."

"This is the oddest thread."

https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/no-one-actually-knows-how-to-lculate-what-speaker-cable-they-need

Here is the final recommended product. Try to get that one past the interior decorator...

https://imgur.com/a/vIL3qs0

Mr.  glupson

You think convient over right. this is the way most losers think.
Cables "look" professional..."
Who look at those? they lay behind and accumulate dust. Who care what they look like. Buy a nice picture and hang it on the wall to look at.
What do they sound like?
Well, maybe it's time for you to try it once. 
It might be like SEX. Stop talking about it, DO IT. it's way more fun. trust me on that.
What is your Amp's DF?

What if he buys a nice picture of some terrific looking cable?

I’m sure that would work out very well for him.

b4icu,

"Who look at those? they lay behind and accumulate dust. Who care what they look like."

I do not know about you, but I do clean the dust regularly. We may be more different than that. I care how things look like even when I am not constantly looking at them. Have you ever bought a car? Has its outside appearance ever influenced your purchase decision? You know, the parts you virtually never see when using it?

"What if he buys a nice picture of some terrific looking cable?"

I prefer the real deal. Who needs pictures when she/he can have a real cable?

"You think convient over right. this is the way most losers think."

Tell that to losers at Bose or Bluetooth SIG.

Also, convenient is not necessarily wrong.

What's the deal with this goofball and car battery cables for speaker wire. 
My amplifier DF is >10000
My wire distance is 4000 feet. What guage do you reccomend,  777MCM ?