Why Do Cables Matter?

@thyname-

       How interesting: many speak of tube, "microphonics", on a regular basis.

   ie: http://www.tungsol.com/html/faqs18.html#:~:text=Microphonics%20describes%20the%20phenomenon%20where,exhibit%20some%20inherent%20microphonic%20tendencies.

        Gotta wonder: how many try to observe THAT phenomenon (visually)?

jasonbourne71 91 posts 06-02-2023 at 08:50am  I have never seen speaker wires move no matter how loud I cranked the stereo!

I have never seen viruses no matter how hard I squint 🙄

     "Louis Pasteur's theory of germs is ridiculous fiction."  (Pierre Pachet, Professor of Physiology at Toulouse , 1872) 

     "The abdomen, the chest, and the brain will forever be shut from the intrusion of the wise and humane surgeon,"  (Sir John Eric Ericksen, British surgeon, appointed Surgeon-Extraordinary to Queen Victoria 1873)

      "The super computer is technologically impossible.  It would take all of the water that flows over Niagara Falls to cool the heat generated by the number of vacuum tubes required." (Professor of Electrical Engineering, New York University)                        

      "There is no likelihood man can ever tap the power of the atom."  (Robert Millikan, Nobel Prize in Physics, 1923)

      "Man will never reach the moon regardless of all future scientific advances." (Dr. Lee DeForest, Father of Radio & Grandfather of Television)

      "Heavier-than-air flying machines are impossible!" (Lord Kelvin, president, Royal Society, 1895) 

      "The bomb will never go off.  I speak as an expert in explosives."  (Admiral William Leahy, re: US Atomic Bomb Project) 

     When the steam locomotive came on the scene; the best (scientific) minds proclaimed, "The human body cannot survive speeds in excess of 35MPH."

      Until recently (21st Century); and the advent of the relatively new science of Fluid Dynamics, the best (scientific) minds involved in Aerodynamics, could not fathom how a bumblebee stays aloft. 

     Often; Science has to catch up with the facts/phenomena of Nature and/or, "reality" (our universe). 

     I haven't been in school since the 60's, but- at Case Institute of Technology; the Physics Prof always emphasized what we were studying was, "Electrical THEORY."         He strongly made a point of the fact that no one had yet actually observed electrons (how they behave on the quantum level) and that only some things can really be called, "LAWS." (ie: Ohm, Kirchoff, Faraday)   

            PERHAPS: that's changed in recent years and I missed it?

     Feynman was and will remain, my favorite lecturer (yeah: I'm that old).

     He mentioned often (and: I took to heart) his favorite Rule of Life: "Never stop learning!"

     For all his genius, he never grew overly confident in his beliefs.    The perfect obverse to the Dunning-Kruger sufferer.

     ie:  “I can live with doubt and uncertainty and not knowing. I think it is much more interesting to live not knowing than to have answers that might be wrong.”

     and: “I have approximate answers, and possible beliefs, and different degrees of certainty about different things, but I’m not absolutely sure of anything.”

     Tesla is probably my favorite innovator, who (despite the incessant, projectile vomit, from his day's naysayers), took the World, kicking and screaming, into the 20th century, with his inventions.

                                                  His thoughts: 

     “Anti-social behavior is a trait of intelligence in a world full of conformists.”

     “All that was great in the past was ridiculed, condemned, combatted, suppressed, only to emerge all the more powerfully, all the more triumphantly from the struggle.”

                    RUN, Jason, RUN!

I have never seen speaker wires move no matter how loud I cranked the stereo!

So bazaar

@coralkong -1!   Go take a college physics course!

          To the local, OCD, imaginary, "intelligence" operative (snort of derision)-

           I have three years of college level Physics (Major) and Psychology (Minor).

                       What are your creds, out of curiosity?

Counterpoint:  Wires move.  If the current is high enough the movement is visible to the naked eye. 
Transducers have wire in them.  The wire affects the sound of the transducer. 
 

i don’t get this argumentation contrary to what is obvious.  
Meanwhile I’m jamming to the music.  My system sounds amazing. 

For those that will skip the first page: I'll hit the REPLAY button:

Wire - having no moving mechanical parts - cannot have a "sound". Ah, inquiring minds will say, what about musical instrument strings/wire? Yes, those do have a " sound" due to length/diameter and material construction. The factor here is "vibration" of the string/wire connected to a sound board. Audio interconnects/speaker wires are fixed in place and not attached to a sound board. Whatever minute vibrations they experience certainly does not affect the electronic components or speakers they are connected to.

Only transducers have a "sound". What's a transducer inquiring minds want to know? It is a device that converts one form of energy into another form of energy. Speakers and phono cartridges are examples of transducers. Speakers convert electrical energy into sound waves - a different form of energy. Phono cartridges convert vinyl vibrations into electrical energy. Speakers and phono cartridges use mechanical parts to affect the energy conversion. It is these mechanical parts that affect the sound of each device/transducer.

@8th-note+1! When I wanted to add some new ICs to my system I too bought the AQ Silver Extremes (5 pairs). They look nicely made and the price was right ($90 each discounted from $450). Like buying jewelry sonic quality was not a factor in my choice. In use the AQ Silver Extremes sound fine! I am not so neurotic to lose sleep worrying if some other brand of interconnects sounds better!

+1 for @snilf  for pointing out that "just listen" is, when stated so simplistically, a quixotic imperative. I would point out that some people claim that only listening for longer periods is effective at discovering subtle differences. One must take notes during those longer periods of listening. The question of whether fast-switching or longer-listening is more effective at discovering enduring qualitative differences is a very interesting one to me.

+1 @audphile1  for noting the reasons people can't hear a difference with cables. And for explaining what needs to be done to make it *possible* to eventually (possibly) hear a difference.

In further follow up to the robbydouglas2 post, I also love these kinds of declamatory statements like: "My system sounds amazing. Most people that have listened to it have never heard anything better." Statements like this are utterly pointless since we don't know what the listeners to this purportedly amazing system have also listened to by comparison. It could be sound down a string and a tin can for all we know. But if it was, I'm sure it was nicely coloured string.:))

@kinarow1

Problem is you haven’t ‘learned’ to listen.., Lol. Forget that common sense and science S..T, you’ll feel much better ‘fact-less’ and broke.
Cheers

Welcome back. I get it now, "Why Do Cables Matter?" was a rhetorical question.

It was NEVER my intent to throw a grenade in. And I do visit Audiogon occasionally ... mainly looking to buy. I normally do NOT go to the forums. And I am not laughing.

I read equipment reviews - as I'm sure most on here do - and the reviews usually have photos that show the "innards" of the equipment - and from the photos, the wiring inside amps and speakers looks pretty ordinary and routine [certainly nothing special]. 

If you have cheap or routine wiring coming off, say a transistor collector to an amplifier binding post INSIDE THE AMPLIFIER, and if this [because it is cheap wire] degrades or chokes the signal, kills any soundstage or imaging or clarity or whatever, and THEN you add very "good wiring" from the exterior amp binding post to the speaker binding post, how can the "good wiring" improve desirable characteristics at that point BECAUSE the cheap wiring INSIDE THE AMPLIFIER has already "damaged or degraded" the signal, and I don't understand or see how "good wiring" from that point forward can "recover or fix" the signal - a signal that has already been compromised by the use of cheap wiring. I don't believe "good wiring" can fix or improve any signal. But instead, it may make readily apparent the shortcomings of a poor signal. That was the point I was trying to make.

I agree in all likelihood #10 speaker wire will sound better than #18 speaker wire - for a host of demonstrable engineering explanations. But I don't think ANY speaker wire can fix or improve a signal that been compromised by the use of inferior wire upstream of the signal. And from the equipment review photos I look at, MOST of this wiring inside equipment seems to be pretty routine.

94-0

another grenade thrown into a contentious subject, by an OP (in this case, that has 1 original post and 3 responses...since 2017), and then runs from the battlefield...laughing from afar 

@audphile1 “ only pissed off temporarily “ hahaha 🤣 indeed!

I love this quote.

As a promenant cable designer once stated: "Cables can’t make a system sound better. They can only make it sound worse. It’s all about damage control."

Cost has ZERO to do with sonics. Pricier cables may have better mechanical longevity, but I’m still using some cables from the ’80’s

@tonywinga ... Interconnects: I am using all XLRs so I cannot speak to single ended designs. When I upgraded my cable from preamp to amps the bass changed completely. I thought it was great before. Suddenly, the clarity was like crystal. What I thought was a kind of fuzz in some low bass guitar notes tightened up so that now I can hear the strings. It was a startling change.

And 3rd down on your list too. Some try it, some don’t - yet strive to debate it more. Hilarious posts by those debating something they’ve never actually tried before.

I own the expensive stuff and I did not feel it was lacking- at least not until I tried some upper tier cables.  I don't see it as tuning or tweaking.  It is refining.  The music is there, the detail and the soundstage is there.  Its more like polishing the mirror to get a clearer, sharper picture.

One other thing I'll add that I thought of.  Cellos and Bass violins sound like they are there now.  Before it was mostly a cello like sound.  Now, all the nuances and resonances of the cello are present- even when streaming music.  I stood 10 feet in front of a cello player in April and listened closely to all of those nuances.  For all I've spent that gives me a lot of satisfaction.  I think the lower registers are the toughest sounds to reproduce correctly which requires both room, electronics and cables to all come together.  Speakers help a lot too, of course.

Accolades to my wife who has patiently permitted me to round out my system with some nice cables.  (She got some benefits from it all too in the form of things she likes.)  

People who own the really expensive stuff and still find it lacking assuming its well set up look to whatever else they can at that point to make further tweaks. Wires are a prime candidate. The logic is you have expensive stuff and don’t want to skimp on the wires. Wires can make a noticeable difference in the sound in many cases, like seasoning in soup, but not always and cost may or may not be the reason.

For most people I would recommend get the major components and their integration into the room right first and cost is NOT the primary factor for that. Bigger rooms will cost more in general, that’s the only rule. Mogami wires are always a perfect choice. So are most any commercial grade balanced interconnects if an option. If you must play around from there, so be it. If that involves throwing more money at the wires, more power to you. To each his own.

Mogami is a smart choice for quality and value.   I'd keep those and change anything else if needed.

I'm trying not to get drawn into this discussion but I can't help myself.  So as someone who has been fortunate to buy some higher quality gear I will share some of my experience.  I are an engineer not a professional stereo reviewer but I will try to communicate the contributions I have heard from the various cables.

Power Cords:  1st preamps and amps- as I moved up the line of power cords the two main things I heard were blacker background.  It's not about sticking my ear to a tweeter and listening for noise.  It is something else.  In a dead quiet room the first thing I noticed with a better power cord was just quiet.  The music comes out of nowhere without warning.  The second thing is the sound.  Bass is firmer and edges on the highs are smoother.  It took some pretty expensive power cords to experience this level of change.  Mid grade power cords not so much.  When I upgraded the power cord on my DAC I immediately noticed the grain in the highs was gone.  And I am using a tubed DAC.  I'd say the DAC was impacted the most with a better power cord.  Some songs that were bright sounding to me, causing me to turn the volume down were now much more pleasant sounding.  

Speaker Cables- I'm trying to remember what they did for my system.  I think it was mostly better clarity and bigger soundstage.  Bass got tighter too, but I will get to this in a minute- the interconnects affected the bass too.  Power cords and speaker cables are enough to start inducing goose bumps.

Interconnects:  I am using all XLRs so I cannot speak to single ended designs.  When I upgraded my cable from preamp to amps the bass changed completely.  I thought it was great before.  Suddenly, the clarity was like crystal.  What I thought was a kind of fuzz in some low bass guitar notes tightened up so that now I can hear the strings.  It was a startling change.

Networking:  This is a technology that is far from mature and so many people have experienced varying results with a nearly infinite combination of components.  In my case, as I said earlier, the network cables impact the sound.  I did not buy super expensive ethernet cables (well, I have an AQ ethernet cable going into the music server) but I got some $35 Pangea ethernet cables to go from modem to router and router to network switch.  These cables have silver plated Cardas wire in them.  They improve the sound of bass when streaming music and added clarity.  I probably could not tell the difference in sound between CD and streaming now.  They are very close.  

Cables are the icing on the cake.  So you could eat the cake without icing but it is not nearly as good.  Probably the most frustrating part about cables is the almost infinite choices and the inability to try more than just a handful.  After all, it takes hundreds of hours for some cables to settle in.  In fact, the new power cords on my amps got so bad sounding in the 50 hour range I could not listen to the stereo at all.  I just had to let it play low and walk away for a day or two.

Nobody is arguing against anybody’s subjective experience.

They are there, you just have to go a little further back in the discussion to find their comments. The tenacity of those repeatedly interjecting the same limiting beliefs and even ridicule across many, many discussions is what brings up their refutation.

 tried with long cable runs, like maybe 100 feet

my issue with that is I can't hear much from a 100 feet. The street noise really messes with the sound of the music at that distance.

The argument about cables is purely objective from what I can tell. Nobody is arguing against anybody’s subjective experience. We take it for granted. What’s being argued is the technical explanation for that subjective experience. For some reason the idea that any power of suggestion is involved in the experience is flatly ruled out, while at the same time blind testing is also flatly ruled out. So, an art of cable apologetics has developed, and that seems strange. Why insist against the power of suggestion? How does one know that is not happening, and why does one care? If it works for you, and you’re a subjectivist, why does it matter how it works? What’s wrong with power of suggestion as an explanation? This is meant as an honest question, not some kind of taunt.

If someone was curious to hear more clearly what various cables do to the sound, it seems they could be tried with long cable runs, like maybe 100 feet. Surely that would exaggerate whatever change the cable is making compared to another cable of the same length. They might both sound bad at that length, but in different ways.

This brings up a potentially complex issue, where a particular cable might sound better at certain lengths, while another sounds better at other lengths, even in the same system.

Have you optimized all your cable lengths? I haven’t. I tend to assume shorter is better, but I haven't tested that notion. It just makes sense to me.

what's the point of the 

Post removed Jun 01, 2023

line?

An objectivist is just a subjectivist who thinks he/she has the better argument.

@nonoise The funny thing is that it’s subjectivity itself which clings to the mental belief system that subjective discrimination has no worth and no validity. The radical materialist and the diehard skeptic are thus hoisted by their own petard.

I’ll add as I’d missed in my first post here a critical element - speaker positioning and distance to listening chair. This is something that I continue to be amazed with how a slight change in speaker placement can break it or make it. This of course comes together with room acoustics right after your components and before cables. 

So you guys are trying to tell me that in a blind listening test I would not be able to tell if my system had cables connected or not?  Preposterous.  Now could I tell in a blind test if it was the power cord that was missing vs. speaker cables?  Probably not.

My point is after 40 years of arguing about this topic don’t you think the cable business would have died out by now if they provided no sonic benefit?

I can hear the difference in the direction of my network cable into the music server.  It is not subtle either.  I really wish they would put arrows on those cables.

An objectivist is just a subjectivist who thinks he/she has the better argument.

charliech

Oh, I will add that if you want to get nice cables just because they look nice, that is a valid reason. 

Anyone can select any cables for their system and the choice will be valid. No one here needs your permission or blessing.

All very subjective thanks for sharing JJSS

https://avahifi.com/products/abx-switch-comparator

https://www.dagogo.com/audio-by-van-alstine-abx-comparator-review-part-1-audio-store-wiring/

this is a very useful tool for comparing components or cables (no xlr connections though) ... mine has been very helpful over time

they used to be $999, when i bought mine, prices have certainly gone up... for reasons we can all understand

whether one can hear differences reliably among cables depends on a lot of factors, one’s hearing acuity, resolution of one’s system, what is being connected, and so on... one must really try for oneself to determine if different items make a sonic difference, not just for cables, but anything we try to improve our sound

folks arguing here, asserting their view, is no different than one person insisting their food item ordered is too salty... but will that same item be too salty for me???

OP: Are you aware that higher quality preamps and amps are ’voiced’? How do you think the manufacturer does that?

This article was written in 1985. It found that capacitors and resistors affected sound quality. Yes, the ones built into the circuits inside your fancy metal boxes. (Scroll down to the bottom of the article to find out about the author.)

This article was written in 2020. It found that the connectors on power cords affected the sound quality.

Everything matters.

I certainly have tried cables that made my system sound worse...but I just returned them, no reason to try to convince myself that I liked them - some were more expensive, some less...

Oh, I will add that if you want to get nice cables just because they look nice, that is a valid reason.  It's like buying a rack or furniture for your gear to sit on.  You could use cinder blocks and 2x4s to support your gear and it would solve the problem and work just fine.

Buy if you are going to spend the cash on some nice stuff, have some nice stuff around it.  

@1971gto455ho no. I waited it out. It’s all good now. Knew I would get it back. I was only pissed off temporarily. That’s the difference. 

Cables may or may not make a difference depending on what they connect.

Even when they do make a difference, some cannot detect it.

And far, far too many audiophools hear with their wallets!

See ieLogical CableSnakeOil

Ignore ALL recommendations for interconnect from anyone who does not have an identical system, musical tastes and room!!!

This has actually been a fairly reasonable and mature discussion! Normally I skip this subject but I'll add my $.02.

To my knowledge there has never been an ABX blind test that showed that audiophiles can hear the difference between cables if they can't see them or know how they were constructed. [If anyone here has information to the contrary please post it.] There are dozens of tests that show that when you test cables "blind" you simply can't hear the difference. Even a few brave cable manufacturers have failed when challenged with this test.

I use Blue Jean and Mogami cables mostly but I decided to try a pair of AudioQuest silver interconnects because I read so many comments that they had a distinctive sound. I have two CD players hooked up that sound identical to my ears and I have several CDs with two copies. I can rapidly switch back and forth and I can set the volume equally between the two players. I swapped the regular cables on one of the players with the silver cables hoping that I could hear the difference. I left the cables in (they are still there) and over the last year or so and every so often I compare them. So far I cannot hear the difference. When I am listening to the player with the silver cables there have been many times that I thought "wow, that seems to sound better than I remember" but when I put the CD in the other player it always sounds just as good. [System is Krell KSA300S amp, KRC2 pre, Thiel CS6 speakers]

On the other hand, if people think they can hear a difference in cables then there is a difference. If the music sounds better to them that's all that matters. They are perfectly capable of deciding where to spend their money. I am the first to admit that the appearance and story behind a component affects my decision to buy and my pride of ownership.

I'm fortunate because I have been able to assemble an affordable system that goes toe to toe with most of the best systems I have heard at several audio shows. In many cases the cabling for those systems costs more than my entire setup. If the cables or power conditioning is causing some sort of magic to happen I can't hear it. Speakers, on the other hand, are night and day. It would seem to me that an audiophile shouldn't spend too much on cables unless they have no upgrade plans for their speakers. An extra dollar spent on speakers is infinitely more effective than an extra dollar spent on cables in my experience.

Why Do Cables Matter?

So you have "weak links" inside the amplifier, and inside the speaker, so why bother with mega expensive cabling between the two? 

because it is all in a continuous chain, so any part of it can affect the sound, alot, some, a little, or none... irrespective of what is happening in other parts of the said chain