Try operating your stereo without any cables. You will quickly discover that cables matter.
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So you guys are trying to tell me that in a blind listening test I would not be able to tell if my system had cables connected or not? Preposterous. Now could I tell in a blind test if it was the power cord that was missing vs. speaker cables? Probably not.
My point is after 40 years of arguing about this topic don’t you think the cable business would have died out by now if they provided no sonic benefit?
I can hear the difference in the direction of my network cable into the music server. It is not subtle either. I really wish they would put arrows on those cables.
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I'm trying not to get drawn into this discussion but I can't help myself. So as someone who has been fortunate to buy some higher quality gear I will share some of my experience. I are an engineer not a professional stereo reviewer but I will try to communicate the contributions I have heard from the various cables.
Power Cords: 1st preamps and amps- as I moved up the line of power cords the two main things I heard were blacker background. It's not about sticking my ear to a tweeter and listening for noise. It is something else. In a dead quiet room the first thing I noticed with a better power cord was just quiet. The music comes out of nowhere without warning. The second thing is the sound. Bass is firmer and edges on the highs are smoother. It took some pretty expensive power cords to experience this level of change. Mid grade power cords not so much. When I upgraded the power cord on my DAC I immediately noticed the grain in the highs was gone. And I am using a tubed DAC. I'd say the DAC was impacted the most with a better power cord. Some songs that were bright sounding to me, causing me to turn the volume down were now much more pleasant sounding.
Speaker Cables- I'm trying to remember what they did for my system. I think it was mostly better clarity and bigger soundstage. Bass got tighter too, but I will get to this in a minute- the interconnects affected the bass too. Power cords and speaker cables are enough to start inducing goose bumps.
Interconnects: I am using all XLRs so I cannot speak to single ended designs. When I upgraded my cable from preamp to amps the bass changed completely. I thought it was great before. Suddenly, the clarity was like crystal. What I thought was a kind of fuzz in some low bass guitar notes tightened up so that now I can hear the strings. It was a startling change.
Networking: This is a technology that is far from mature and so many people have experienced varying results with a nearly infinite combination of components. In my case, as I said earlier, the network cables impact the sound. I did not buy super expensive ethernet cables (well, I have an AQ ethernet cable going into the music server) but I got some $35 Pangea ethernet cables to go from modem to router and router to network switch. These cables have silver plated Cardas wire in them. They improve the sound of bass when streaming music and added clarity. I probably could not tell the difference in sound between CD and streaming now. They are very close.
Cables are the icing on the cake. So you could eat the cake without icing but it is not nearly as good. Probably the most frustrating part about cables is the almost infinite choices and the inability to try more than just a handful. After all, it takes hundreds of hours for some cables to settle in. In fact, the new power cords on my amps got so bad sounding in the 50 hour range I could not listen to the stereo at all. I just had to let it play low and walk away for a day or two.
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I own the expensive stuff and I did not feel it was lacking- at least not until I tried some upper tier cables. I don't see it as tuning or tweaking. It is refining. The music is there, the detail and the soundstage is there. Its more like polishing the mirror to get a clearer, sharper picture.
One other thing I'll add that I thought of. Cellos and Bass violins sound like they are there now. Before it was mostly a cello like sound. Now, all the nuances and resonances of the cello are present- even when streaming music. I stood 10 feet in front of a cello player in April and listened closely to all of those nuances. For all I've spent that gives me a lot of satisfaction. I think the lower registers are the toughest sounds to reproduce correctly which requires both room, electronics and cables to all come together. Speakers help a lot too, of course.
Accolades to my wife who has patiently permitted me to round out my system with some nice cables. (She got some benefits from it all too in the form of things she likes.)
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Counterpoint: Wires move. If the current is high enough the movement is visible to the naked eye.
Transducers have wire in them. The wire affects the sound of the transducer.
i don’t get this argumentation contrary to what is obvious.
Meanwhile I’m jamming to the music. My system sounds amazing.
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So many opinions here based on little to no life experiences. Learning comes from listening and thinking, never from talking. You can read a book about swimming but until you watch someone swim and jump into a lake yourself, you have no idea what swimming is.
I’ve seen cables move. When hundreds of amps going through a wire it wants to standup straight. That wire gets rigid. Wires heat up as current passes through them. As the wires heat up they move. It’s called thermal expansion. Go read about that.
Many of the audiophile wires on the market look pretty and that is all they are good for. You may or may not hear an improvement. I bought some bi-wire speaker cables for my HT setup years ago to replace my old Monster Cable speaker wires. I didn’t hear a difference. I was out a couple of hundred dollars but at least the new speaker wires look cool with 4 banana plugs in the back of each speaker. For HT purposes I have great sound. For some reason I do not obsess with the sound like I do with my stereo system. I’m more concerned about the picture. Maybe that’s because I grew up with a 19” B&W TV. So I don’t see myself as someone who wants to hear a difference because I spent some money on a wire with two connectors attached. I typically audition with the mindset that I could use that money to buy a sports car or a boat (well down payment is all really) rather than on a cable. I don’t tell people what I spend on cables. I think it is nuts myself but at some point you are either all in or you are out. Don’t buy an expensive preamp and then leave a $5 power cord on it and expect it to perform at its best.
I have watched some tear downs of “high grade” cables on video. Not surprising that many brands are just fluff. They might really be OCC copper, who knows? But the dielectrics and terminations matter as much as the wire and many of these wires are not well engineered. The good brands and the well engineered cables are expensive. People come across some good deals in cables here and there. But as always it is caveat emptor. We don’t have gov’t oversight of the cable industry so it is up to all of us audiophiles as a community to find those gold nuggets in cables.
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Ieales needs a graphic equalizer- much easier for adjusting the tone of his system.
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Ieales, I love the sound of Quads. My first encounter with them was in the late 1980’s pared with an ARC SP-8 and Quicksilver amp. A Sota Star was generating the magical music emanating from those modified Quad ESLs. That was where my true hi end journey began. I had planars too but eventually moved on to Thiel speakers. To me they were fast like planars but with stronger bass. Agreed, time coherence is critical but I’m not convinced cables can alter that- at least they shouldn’t. I even had MIT cables with the LCR networks for a long time. I have since moved back to non-networked cables.
I’m saying that generalizations about cables are inaccurate. Cables have progressed over the decades as much as any other stereo component, ie. DACs, amps, preamps, etc. The disappointing part, as I have said is that it is not a regulated industry and finding true and legitimate technology can be a challenge. And I have also found, just as with any other stereo component- some bargains exist that make great sound for the money but mostly the good stuff tends to be more expensive. Expensive or cheap what we are all looking for is something genuine. It is not easy to make the OCC copper wire which sounds the best. And how many people have their own metallurgical lab to verify they are getting what they paid for. It comes down to how it sounds and for sure, we can get fooled into thinking something sounds better only later to discover it doesn’t. It’s happened to me.
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OCC copper wire wasn’t created for audio. It was created for Aerospace- same with silver plated copper wire. The goal is resistance to fatigue and corrosion. Back in the day I would spec MIL-W-16878 wire, if I remember correctly for LVDTs used in aerospace. Similar wire is used these days in automotive too in order to help meet OBD-II and durability requirements. (Not so much the OCC in automotive. It is too expensive).
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You are missing the point that the average stereo system extracts just a fraction of the information from the recording. More resolving systems extract more information. I hear footfalls, whispers, movements in recordings. It was very distracting at first but I have learned to tune that out. Still, I’m not crazy about listening to my system in the dark. It often feels like people are moving around in the room.
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key to remember is that good quality hifi cables need NOT to be very expensive, and as a rule, one should stay away from those in nosebleed territory, even for very good systems
Why? If so, then perhaps everyone should stay away from all audio gear in nosebleed territory. You gotta pay to play. We work to refine and improve our audio systems over time- sometimes we hit a dead end and have to start over or let go of a favorite component because it is just not working well in our system. Cables are as much as a component as anything else in our audio system.
I don’t like the idea of spending my hard earned money on a cable anymore than anyone else. It’s just as bad as having to pay for an expensive car repair. I go for sound over looks but I can appreciate how some cable manufacturers make their cables look like jewelry. Some can at least feel like they got something more for their money. Here’s the reality: $100k worth of speakers, amps, preamps and source are going to require something around $25k in power cords and cables. If you are aspiring to get to that level of a system, better budget for cables up front. Don’t agree? Well, those with that level of system or higher are nodding their heads.
Perhaps a better piece of advice is to stay within your means when it comes to this hobby. We all have our passions and it’s fun to play in the high end HiFi arena. When you find a bargain on a high end amp or a pair of speakers just remember: they simply will never perform at their best if you scrimp on cables.
I was at the Ford Proving Grounds in the early 1990’s. The Mustang group was in the adjacent bays. I noticed at the beginning of the week they had a large stack of tires sitting there. I could hear tires squealing all day as they drove the cars on the tire test track. They would wear out a set of tires on each car in a day. I was surprised to see that large stack of tires was gone by the end of the week. One of the engineers remarked to me that for all the work the Mustang group does evaluating tires and finding the best tire for ride and handling, most people will just replace their worn tires with the cheapest set they can find.
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because in my experience over many years, i have found that very expensive cables don’t out-perform well chosen, reasonably priced ones
That is true for any component of an audio system. Why make it sound like it is the case only for cables?
You have some really nice gear so I believe you. On the other hand, there are many paths to stereo fulfillment.
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Thank you kind sir.
I have achieved stereostasis- at least for now.
My wife doesn’t believe me. So I’m not changing anything for a while just to prove her wrong.
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I'll tell you guys a story. This isn't easy for me to talk about. So I have wanted some Wilson Audio speakers for a long time. I loved my Thiel CS6 speakers but I had to get me a pair of Wilsons. I revamped my system from the ground up and made my dedicated listening room acoustically friendly. I thought I was ready for the Wilsons. I was sure that I would be able to insert them into my system- plug n play. Ha!. I got my Wilsons and ended up replacing every single cable and power cord. Lucky for me I was able to do that or I wouldn't have kept the speakers. I should have known better because I went through the exact same thing when I got the Thiel speakers years ago.
Meanwhile, I finally found a buyer for my Thiels. I set them up in my shop with a bluetooth SMSL amp that I use on the back porch and with some old, old Monster Cable speaker wire. Now, my shop is insulated and the walls are covered with perforated masonite. So it is just about hemianechoic. I had the speakers just sitting on a blanket on the concrete floor and about 6 feet apart and 15 feet from the back wall. My shop is 30x30. I sat down to take a listen before the buyer arrived and I was blown away. The Thiels sounded so good I got sick to my stomach. The bass was as good I had ever heard from them. The imaging was crisp like a pair of Maggies. After listening to a few songs I could hear differences compared to the Wilsons, but this still was a set up that I could have just about lived with. I spent a lot of money to get that last 20% out of my system. At that point the buyer was almost there and I really don't need multiple systems so I let them go. The bass, the soundstage, the detail and clarity are all clearly better with the Wilsons but I'm saying that Theil speakers have got to be the best bargain in hifi these days. They just need plenty of room around them to perform their best.
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I find I can agree only with your last paragraph. You make inferences that cables are simple and easy to make but I haven’t seen much from you to substantiate that. What then is the proper pricing structure for cables be it Cu, Ag, or Au alloys? What about the structure and weave of the cable and the insulators used? Or should not pricing be based on performance? What is Uber expensive in your mind? Is an amp, speaker or turntable that costs as much as a 550 HP luxury car overpriced in your mind then?
I will tell you that I know very little about the engineering and design of audio cables but I do know something about wire. I worked with wire in Aerospace and Automotive. There the primary goals were fatigue resistance and joint integrity. Other requirements included noise rejection and EMI emissions. Wire harnesses can get complicated very quickly and especially when working with high frequencies- ie. 5 kHz and above.
I also know the economics of production. Low volume, handmade boutique level gear, be it cables, amps or turntables will be costly. No avoiding that. A handmade watch that costs $100k cannot keep time as well as a $100 quartz watch but which one looks and feels good on the arm? No, I myself would never spend that on a watch but I’d love to buy a pair of speakers…
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To explain where I am coming from, I got me a pair of liquid filled interconnects that cost nearly as much as my preamp. Fortunately, I got them used for much less. The change these cables made to my audio system is astounding. Would that I could upgrade all of my cables to that level. Only it would cost me more than what I paid for my first house and I can’t bring myself to do that. It always comes down to, “how far are you willing to take it?”
btw- tweaks are fun and they do not have to be expensive.
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I was awarded 10 US Patents over my engineering career and several EU Patents. (Before I went into management). Some, but not all of the EU Patents overlap the US ones. Most but not all of my inventions made it into production. My little brother has 9-10 US Patents too and he is a Purdue grad. Go figure.
It is expensive to apply for a patent and time consuming. I had to work with the legal team to develop the art and the claims as well as research of all patent databases to verify no prior claims. Unless someone has a lot of time and money on their hands to write up some fantastical inventions and pay a legal team to submit it for a patent, well it wouldn’t make sense to me. The sole purpose of the patent is to protect the invention for a time allowing the inventors to profit from their ideas. Even holding a patent is not a guarantee someone will not copy it. Lot’s of time and legal fees involved in defending patent rights. So I don’t understand how someone would be rolling on the floor with laughter reading patent claims. I’d rather watch Gillian’s Island reruns.
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I don't believe the limitation is in the recording. It is in the playback system and the ears of the listener. One reason I say that is from my visit to Axpona 2022 in Tampa. On Friday night a recording engineer did a seminar in the large room displaying the Acora speakers. He had a digital version of the master recording of Night at the Opera by Queen. The original master was analog being that it was made in the 1970s. One of the fascinating things he said is that he can hear the splices in these old master tapes when playing them back on his stereo. Try as I might I do not hear them. I'm not trained to hear them. His entire demonstration of how the mix down to two channel is made was a new experience for me and very fascinating.
Vibration is the single most limiter to resolution. Unwanted vibrations cause smearing. A good example is a Scanning Electron Microscope. The more the SEM is isolated from vibrations the better it's resolving power. I can recall seeing my first SEM in 1980. It was mounted on its own separate concrete pad from the plant floor and stood atop a thick cork underlayment. Audio is the same. The better the recording studio and its components are isolated down to the playback system and its components- including the cables then the more resolving the playback will be.
I agree and understand your point and that is exactly how I think about it. If say the live performance is a 10 and the studio recording is then possibly an 8, then the average system playback will be around 2. Mid-fi might hit 4. Hifi might hit 5-7. Thing is, only a small subset of listeners may be able to discern the difference between a 6 and a 7. I also understand that the live recording and the final mix down to 2 channel will not have a lot in common. That was another interesting thing that night at Axpona. After hearing many of the 24 tracks separately on the master tape, I tried and tried to hear many of those sounds in the 2 channel version but I could not make them out.
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The first Cowboy Junkies album, Trinity Sessions is a great example of a stereo mic set up. The original record has some faults but this album is a work of art from the music (I appreciate this music) to how it was recorded and the location. The re-released record which came out a few years ago fixes a lot of the audio issues. I appreciate the original but I listen to the new version now, also because it has two extra songs. The new version does better at catching the ambience of the church they are in. I feel that I am sitting inside that church while they play their songs.
This style of recording is much appreciated on a good rig. Close mic'd multi mix down brings lots of things to hear in a high resolution rig, but these stereo mic recordings feel much more natural. Both types are fun listening for me.
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Cable theory 101:
No cable= no sound
bad cable= bad sound
good cable= good sound
best cable= best sound
Audiophile behavior 101:
No sound= sometimes happy
Bad sound= never happy
Good sound= not unhappy
Best sound= sometimes happy
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Better crossover components in speakers make a much bigger improvement in sound rather than replacing the internal wiring. Replacing the electrolytic capacitors in less expensive speakers with roll film caps or at least bypassing the bigger electrolytics with a small film capacitor is the biggest bang for the buck. I was doing that back in the 1990s. Better inductors and resistors in the crossovers will help too. Then after all that, internal wiring may or may not make a sonic difference. It is typically not too difficult to get to the crossovers in speakers. Film capacitors for a given value can be quite a bit larger than their electrolytic counterparts. That’s why sometimes it better to just put a small value film cap in parallel with the large valued electrolytic. Gain most of the improvement in sound that way.
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