To me, all you need is low L, C, and R. I run Mogami W3104 bi-wire from my McIntosh MAC7200 to my Martin Logan Theos. We all know that a chain is only as strong as its' weakest link - so I am honestly confused by all this cable discussion.
What kind of wiring goes from the transistor or tube to the amplifier speaker binding post inside the amplifier? It is usually plain old 16 ga or 14 ga copper. Then we are supposed to install 5 - 10' or so of wallet-emptying, pipe-sized pure CU or AG with "special configurations" to the speaker terminals?
What kind of wiring is inside the speaker from the terminals to the crossover, and from the crossover to the drivers? Usually plain old 16 ga or 14 ga copper.
So you have "weak links" inside the amplifier, and inside the speaker, so why bother with mega expensive cabling between the two? It doesn't make logical sense to me. It makes more sense to match the quality of your speaker wires with the existing wires in the signal path [inside the amplifier and inside the speaker].
The adherents of the Naysayer Church will never accept that there exist a multitude of variables, when an accurate simulacrum of performers and their performance in a particular venue, is the desire/goal.
If their result differs from that of others, the aspects that they can't discern CERTAINLY MUST BE the product of the others' imagination.
Of this they are certain: it CAN'T be THEIR system or ears!
Perish the thought!
A much more apropos view of the local, imaginary intelligence operative (et al):
Many upscale equipment designers do use better wire within their products*, or: offer such as an upgrade.
Even companies that manufacture PC boards, take into account the dielectric constants, of the material used and their effects on signal speed, among other factors.
*ie: David Manley (of VTL) was already using George Cardas' wire, internally, back in the Eighties. Emerald Physics offers WireWorld, OCC internal wiring, as an option/upgrade.
No one can tell you whether/how your system, room and/or ears will respond to some new addition. There are simply too many variables.
LIKEWISE: no one can possibly know whether a new addition (ie: some kind of disc, crystal, fuse, interconnect, speaker cable, etc) will make a difference, in their system and room, with their media and to their ears, without trying them for themselves.
Some companies offer a 30 Day Satisfaction Guarantee, so- those that are actually interested, have absolutely nothing to lose, by trying (experimenting with) such.
Anyone that knows anything about the sciences, realizes that something like 96% of what makes up this universe, remains a mystery.
For centuries; humanity’s seen, heard, felt and otherwise witnessed phenomena, that none of the best minds could explain, UNTIL they developed a science or measurement, that could explain it.
The Naysayer Church wants you to trust their antiquated science (1800’s electrical theory) and faith-based, religious doctrine, BLINDLY ("Trust ME!").
Theories have never proven or disproven anything. It’s INVARIABLY testing and experimentation that proves or disproves theories/hypotheses.
IF you’re interested in the possibility of improving your system’s presentation, have a shred of confidence in your capacity for perceiving reality and trust your own senses: actually TRY whatever whets your aural appetite, FOR YOURSELF.
No one can tell you whether/how your system, room and/or ears will respond to some new addition. There are simply too many variables.
LIKEWISE: no one can possibly know whether a new addition (ie: some kind of disc, crystal, fuse, interconnect, speaker cable, etc) will make a difference, in their system and room, with their media and to their ears, without trying them for themselves.
Some companies offer a 30 Day Satisfaction Guarantee, so- those that are actually interested, have absolutely nothing to lose, by trying (experimenting with) such.
Anyone that knows anything about the sciences, realizes that something like 96% of what makes up this universe, remains a mystery.
For centuries; humanity’s seen, heard, felt and otherwise witnessed phenomena, that none of the best minds could explain, UNTIL they developed a science or measurement, that could explain it.
The Naysayer Church wants you to trust their antiquated science (1800’s electrical theory) and faith-based, religious doctrine, BLINDLY ("Trust ME!").
Theories have never proven or disproven anything. It’s INVARIABLY testing and experimentation that proves or disproves theories/hypotheses.
IF you’re interested in the possibility of improving your system’s presentation, have a shred of confidence in your capacity for perceiving reality and trust your own senses: actually TRY whatever whets your aural appetite, FOR YOURSELF.
The adherents of the Naysayer Church will never accept that there exist a multitude of variables, when an accurate simulacrum of performers and their performance in a particular venue, is the desire/goal.
If their result differs from that of others, the aspects that they can't discern CERTAINLY MUST BE the product of the others' imagination.
Of this they are certain: it CAN'T be THEIR system or ears!
Perish the thought!
A much more apropos view of the local, imaginary intelligence operative (et al):
Many upscale equipment designers do use better wire within their products*, or: offer such as an upgrade.
Even companies that manufacture PC boards, take into account the dielectric constants, of the material used and their effects on signal speed, among other factors.
*ie: David Manley (of VTL) was already using George Cardas' wire, internally, back in the Eighties. Emerald Physics offers WireWorld, OCC internal wiring, as an option/upgrade.
That second post is especially for the OP, who can't seem to grasp (or: is ignoring), not only that the more expensive/higher quality gear, already has addressed internal wiring, but facts, such as: the lengths of internal wiring compared to those of interconnects, etc.
How about: the internal wiring of most SS gear is virtually non-existent.
Feynman was and will remain, my favorite lecturer (yeah: I'm that old).
He mentioned often (and: I took to heart) his favorite Rule of Life: "Never stop learning!"
For all his genius, he never grew overly confident in his beliefs. The perfect obverse to the Dunning-Kruger sufferer.
ie: “I can live with doubt and uncertainty and not knowing. I think it is much more interesting to live not knowing than to have answers that might be wrong.”
and: “I have approximate answers, and possible beliefs, and different degrees of certainty about different things, but I’m not absolutely sure of anything.”
Tesla is probably my favorite innovator, who (despite the incessant, projectile vomit, from his day's naysayers), took the World, kicking and screaming, into the 20th century, with his inventions.
"Louis Pasteur's theory of germs is ridiculous fiction." (Pierre Pachet, Professor of Physiology at Toulouse , 1872)
"The abdomen, the chest, and the brain will forever be shut from the intrusion of the wise and humane surgeon," (Sir John Eric Ericksen, British surgeon, appointed Surgeon-Extraordinary to Queen Victoria 1873)
"The super computer is technologically impossible. It would take all of the water that flows over Niagara Falls to cool the heat generated by the number of vacuum tubes required." (Professor of Electrical Engineering, New York University)
"There is no likelihood man can ever tap the power of the atom." (Robert Millikan, Nobel Prize in Physics, 1923)
"Man will never reach the moon regardless of all future scientific advances." (Dr. Lee DeForest, Father of Radio & Grandfather of Television)
"Heavier-than-air flying machines are impossible!" (Lord Kelvin, president, Royal Society, 1895)
"The bomb will never go off. I speak as an expert in explosives." (Admiral William Leahy, re: US Atomic Bomb Project)
When the steam locomotive came on the scene; the best (scientific) minds proclaimed, "The human body cannot survive speeds in excess of 35MPH."
Until recently (21st Century); and the advent of the relatively new science of Fluid Dynamics, the best (scientific) minds involved in Aerodynamics, could not fathom how a bumblebee stays aloft.
Often; Science has to catch up with the facts/phenomena of Nature and/or, "reality" (our universe).
I haven't been in school since the 60's, but- at Case Institute of Technology; the Physics Prof always emphasized what we were studying was, "Electrical THEORY." He strongly made a point of the fact that no one had yet actually observed electrons (how they behave on the quantum level) and that only some things can really be called, "LAWS." (ie: Ohm, Kirchoff, Faraday)
PERHAPS: that's changed in recent years and I missed it?
I have one word, to express my personal view as regards the Church of Denyin'tology and it's obfuscating, classically (possibly: willfully) obtuse adherents (you know, the NAYSAYERS):
AND (incidentally): I DO have a number of recordings, of my own creation (using a John Oram board and complimentary cabling, FYI), that I've used to critique my system and it's accuracy in instrumental/vocal tonality, etc.
But: a more scientific way, at least with which to determine if a system will/can recover room ambiance, describe the air between the above voices and image well, which (to me) are what is most greatly affected by cable choices, is the LEDR test, so easily found online and CD.
The adherents of the Naysayer Church will never accept that there exist a multitude of variables, when an accurate simulacrum of performers and their performance in a particular venue, is the desire/goal.
If their result differs from that of others, the aspects that they can't discern CERTAINLY MUST BE the product of the others' imagination.
Of this they are certain: it CAN'T be THEIR system or ears!
Perish the thought!
A much more apropos view of the local, imaginary intelligence operative (et al):
No one can tell you whether/how your system, room and/or ears will respond to some new addition. There are simply too many variables.
LIKEWISE: no one can possibly know whether a new addition (ie: some kind of disc, crystal, fuse, interconnect, speaker cable, etc) will make a difference, in their system and room, with their media and to their ears, without trying them for themselves.
Some companies offer a 30 Day Satisfaction Guarantee, so- those that are actually interested, have absolutely nothing to lose, by trying (experimenting with) such.
Anyone that knows anything about the sciences, realizes that something like 96% of what makes up this universe, remains a mystery.
For centuries; humanity’s seen, heard, felt and otherwise witnessed phenomena, that none of the best minds could explain, UNTIL they developed a science or measurement, that could explain it.
The Naysayer Church wants you to trust their antiquated science (1800’s electrical theory) and faith-based, religious doctrine, BLINDLY ("Trust ME!").
Theories have never proven or disproven anything. It’s INVARIABLY testing and experimentation that proves or disproves theories/hypotheses.
IF you’re interested in the possibility of improving your system’s presentation, have a shred of confidence in your capacity for perceiving reality and trust your own senses: actually TRY whatever whets your aural appetite, FOR YOURSELF.
Feynman was and will remain, my favorite lecturer (yeah: I'm that old).
He mentioned often (and: I took to heart) his favorite Rule of Life: "Never stop learning!"
For all his genius, he never grew overly confident in his beliefs. The perfect obverse to the Dunning-Kruger sufferer.
ie: “I can live with doubt and uncertainty and not knowing. I think it is much more interesting to live not knowing than to have answers that might be wrong.”
and: “I have approximate answers, and possible beliefs, and different degrees of certainty about different things, but I’m not absolutely sure of anything.”
Tesla is probably my favorite innovator, who (despite the incessant, projectile vomit, from his day's naysayers), took the World, kicking and screaming, into the 20th century, with his inventions.
"Louis Pasteur's theory of germs is ridiculous fiction." (Pierre Pachet, Professor of Physiology at Toulouse , 1872)
"The abdomen, the chest, and the brain will forever be shut from the intrusion of the wise and humane surgeon," (Sir John Eric Ericksen, British surgeon, appointed Surgeon-Extraordinary to Queen Victoria 1873)
"The super computer is technologically impossible. It would take all of the water that flows over Niagara Falls to cool the heat generated by the number of vacuum tubes required." (Professor of Electrical Engineering, New York University)
"There is no likelihood man can ever tap the power of the atom." (Robert Millikan, Nobel Prize in Physics, 1923)
"Man will never reach the moon regardless of all future scientific advances." (Dr. Lee DeForest, Father of Radio & Grandfather of Television)
"Heavier-than-air flying machines are impossible!" (Lord Kelvin, president, Royal Society, 1895)
"The bomb will never go off. I speak as an expert in explosives." (Admiral William Leahy, re: US Atomic Bomb Project)
When the steam locomotive came on the scene; the best (scientific) minds proclaimed, "The human body cannot survive speeds in excess of 35MPH."
Until recently (21st Century); and the advent of the relatively new science of Fluid Dynamics, the best (scientific) minds involved in Aerodynamics, could not fathom how a bumblebee stays aloft.
Often; Science has to catch up with the facts/phenomena of Nature and/or, "reality" (our universe).
I haven't been in school since the 60's, but- at Case Institute of Technology; the Physics Prof always emphasized what we were studying was, "Electrical THEORY." He strongly made a point of the fact that no one had yet actually observed electrons (how they behave on the quantum level) and that only some things can really be called, "LAWS." (ie: Ohm, Kirchoff, Faraday)
PERHAPS: that's changed in recent years and I missed it?
"Ok, I didn’t communicate my point. I’ll try one more time and you don’t have to read my notes."
"Listening- to what?"
APPARENTLY: you don't even bother to read the very first sentences of posts previous to yours.
ie:
AND (incidentally): I DO have a number of recordings, of my own creation (using a John Oram board and complimentary cabling, FYI), that I've used to critique my system and it's accuracy in instrumental/vocal tonality, etc.
But: a more scientific way, at least with which to determine if a system will/can recover room ambiance, describe the air between the above voices and image well, which (to me) are what is most greatly affected by cable choices, is the LEDR test, so easily found online and CD.
From the next post: The adherents of the Naysayer Church will never accept that there exist a multitude of variables, when an accurate simulacrum of performers and their performance in a particular venue, is the desire/goal.
IOW: The majority of us that are experimenting with better cables, do so that we might enjoy a more realistic presentation, in ALL aspects.
Many of us have found that improving our interconnects, PC and fuses, has resulted in more accurate information retrieval, and/or less loss of information, throughout the system, NOT with the intent to, "...change the signal" or, "boost the bass or whatever frequency to exactly match the way you like the sound?"
Nothing lost through the use of crappy cabling, can ever be recovered by you beloved digital EQ and dynamic tools.
Are you really that obtuse, or just choosing to be argumentative*?
#1- I never said, "bad cables". A, "bad" cable (in my lexicon) would be a cable that doesn't convey ANY signal.
'Crappy' would include the sort that come with most equipment, or: those that utilize dielectrics such as PVC, or other cheap-out constructions*, that are detrimental to audio signals.
*Admittedly: even some cheap, after-market cables perform better than the manufacturer-provided garbage.
#2:
You are wrong about DSP not making up for problems in the signal.
What I said was your digital gyrations (whatever form that may take) can never recover information LOST along a signal pathway.
Of course: the sound of a system can be tweaked with regards to a plethora of parameters, via DSP (which my TacT RCS 2.2X pre provides in spades), BUT: if critical components of the ORIGINAL signal are lost, there isn't a device manufactured that can recreate those, at any cost.
Again, for many of us: an accurate simulacrum of performers and their performances in a particular venue, is the desire/goal.
That requires maintaining the original signal, in as unaltered a state, as possible.
The common term: transparency.
How anyone else chooses to listen to their music, or: manipulate their signals, in their own listening environs, is strictly their own affair.
Even when in the business of designing and building systems for others; I never tried to change a customer's aural palette, though many viewed listening to my demo systems an awakening.
My credo was, "The customer always thinks they're right!"
The problem I have in these threads is the number that go about trying to dissuade others, from experimenting with their own systems.
As I often aver:
No one can tell you whether/how your system, room and/or ears will respond to some new addition. There are simply too many variables.
LIKEWISE: no one can possibly know whether a new addition (ie: some kind of disc, crystal, fuse, interconnect, speaker cable, etc) will make a difference, in their system and room, with their media and to their ears, without trying them for themselves.
Some companies offer a 30 Day Satisfaction Guarantee, so- those that are actually interested, have absolutely nothing to lose, by trying (experimenting with) such.
Today vocalists routinely use Auto Tune or other programs to even make the singer bearable,
GEE! In the STUDIO/during EDITING/on the RECORDING, changes can be made to the sounds/tracks being laid down?
WHAT'S NEW?
During PLAYBACK, in the listening room, from the source to the speakers/headphones, NO component manufactured is able to determine what information has been/may have been lost along the circuitry/signal path.
To do so: the equipment would (of necessity) have to sample the original signal at the GENERATION POINT (stylus tip/tape head/LASER/digital track reader), compare the sound AT THE LISTENING POSITION, and process the signal to restore any information found absent, if possible. NO current component does that.
Back in March a thread about power cords and break/burn-in was started.
I hate to type, so: I'm going to copy/paste some of my speculations.
That a highly complex musical signal, MIGHT affect Poynting vectors and signal speeds, in interconnects, in a much more profound manner than a simple AC (ie: a fixed 60/50 Hz) signal, in a PC, seems likely (at least) to me.
Further: all of the above and what I'll c/p (seems to me) lends credence to how the application of a stronger, DC voltage/field, outside a dielectric (ala Synergistic MPC and Audioquest DBS systems), might stabilize those vectors and signal speeds, PERHAPS eliminating some time smear and, "burn-in".
Bear with me a minute, in my folly, far as a possibility on why a power cord might make a difference.
Based on some of the theories on how electricity works, simplified:
The conductor acts as a waveguide for the signal/voltage.
Within the conductor: when excited by an AC current, electrons oscillate, generating photons/electromagnetic waves that travel, always from the source, to the load.
Keep in mind: all signals (ie: music, AC) are sinusoidal waves
Those photons/electromagnetic waves travel through and outside the dielectric, which (according to it's permittivity/Poynting vectors) will have various effects on those waves. One of the most obvious, is the dielectric's effect on the speed of the signal.
The better designers of printed circuit boards, even take the above into account, when choosing materials for their products.
I posted a link on the first page, that included data on the manufacture of semiconductor chips and what was observed when materials were cryo'd, during process. Short version: better contact/lowered resistance between layers.
Under the scanning microscope: much smoother surfaces observed.
I would hope, by now, it's a given that various cable constructions, twists, braids, etc, can make for a cleaner transmission of signals (ie: Litz, etc).
Just seems to me (a hypothesis): given the above (some theories and some things established/measured/proven), it's not a big stretch to believe a power cord, built of the best conductor (Ohno CC silver), wrapped in a very low dielectric coefficient dielectric (ie: Teflon), cryo'd for the smoothest transfer of those photons/magnetic waves and twisted in some crazy way, might not smooth out some of preturbations/noise, from the crap an AC waveform had to go through, back to it's generator. (run-on, much?)
I haven't tested this, actually comparing two circuits, but: it wouldn't surprise me, if a power supply that used a choke, would be less affected by a better power cord, as the former can eliminate a lot of the high freq garbage, etc, that's either created by, or makes it through all the big converting/filtering stuff, before.
Never thought about PCs before the good stuff hit the market, but: the Physics/QED made sense.
I tried 'em, I like 'em and the science makes my head feel better.
OH, and: it takes some time for the dielectric to form, take a charge, polarize, or however one chooses to define the process, when a dielectric is subjected to electromagnetic waves, which affects the Poynting vectors, measurably/predictably.
The lower the material’s dielectric constant: the longer that takes.
Why is it that the worlds most expensive and accurate machine made by ASML does not use AC cables that are in any way like expensive audiophile cables?
Why don’t audio test equipment, oscilloscopes or DNA scanning scientific test equipment use (MIT/Transparent) AC cables if they are more accurate?
Which ones of the above are designed to, used for, or- expected to faithfully produce a believable simulacrum of performers in a particular venue, from a good recording*?
OH, YEAH: NONE!
Like I said: Give it a rest!
*Simply: my goal. Favored effects of improved PCs will vary.
Some (genuinely inquisitive regarding cables) may find it interesting that NASA ordered Big Silver Oval from Analysis Plus, for some of their LASER projects, because: they found it PERFORMED BETTER than other cabling.
That foreknowledge influenced my decision to purchase the same, for my system, years back.
Then too: the typical SS component's total internal wiring can be measured in scant inches (copper AWG or not/if any at all*) and thus: inconsequential.
The combined total, internal wiring of my PTP wired, Cary valve monoblocks = 16".
*Many have all inputs, outputs and AC/power supply, attached directly to their PC boards.
Open any amp or speaker and tell me what kind of wires do they use to connect them with? Copper AWG
The usual ignorance (willful, or otherwise).
A FIRST PAGE replay:
Many upscale equipment designers do use better wire within their products*, or: offer such as an upgrade.
Even companies that manufacture PC boards take into account the dielectric constants of the material used and their effects on signal speed, among other factors.
*ie: David Manley (of VTL) was already using George Cardas' wire, internally, back in the Eighties. Emerald Physics offers WireWorld, OCC internal wiring, as an option/upgrade.
Is there some magical difference that occurs to the electricity after it comes out of the wall?
Maybe that's the "special" electricity. All the miles of electricity before the wall outlet doesn't matter. We'll fix it at that last six feet before the amp.
Power cables are psychoacoustic nonsense. Placebo effect and expectation bias. The owners and sellers of these don't want to hear that. Especially the sellers.
Cargo cults are religious practices that have appeared in many traditional tribal societies in the wake of interaction with technologically advanced cultures.
Do a bit a research and you'll learn those primitives were limited in their understanding, of what they saw with their eyes, based on their prior experience, education and BIASES.
A rewind:
It isn't that the Denyin'tologists are ignorant.
It's they're knowing* so much, that's WRONG.
*heart of the Dunning-Kruger Effect
OR, two:
The Church of the Naysayer Doctrine (like every other faith-based, religious cult) has as many dopes as it does Popes.
Bring up anything resembling SCIENCE/PHYSICS, dated later than the 1800’s and they become apoplectic, not having the formal education to comprehend the concepts, or- possible ramifications. THAT would be hilarious, were it not so pathetic!
Gimme That Old Time Religion, Gimme That Old Time Religion, etc.
At the very first mention of something as simple as Wave Function (a BASIC tenet of Quantum Mechanics), the Cargo Cult will label you a KOOK.
But remember: they can only view/understand you, based on their limited experience, education and BIASES.
They have overlooked the fact that, if not for the hypotheses/theories and experimentation, regarding Quantum Mechanics: a plethora of modern conveniences, medical devices and the gear they so love, would not exist.
Had scientists, chemists and inventors shared the doctrines of the Cargo Cult (Denyin'tologists), there would be no semiconductors, computer chips, LASERs, or Magnetic Resonance Imaging devices (MRIs).
Solid State amps?
OOPS (back to tubes)!
Your Smart Phone?
FA'GET ABOUT IT!
Your car's GPS?
NOPE!
Then too: some may be willfully ignorant and just enjoy being contentious.
Others: obtuse, uneducated*, misinformed?
*Typically, from what's been exhibited here: H.S. STEM, if that, would be a safe inference.
Either way: the result, when the Cult begins it's rhetoric is a classic demo of the Dunning- Kruger Effect.
But, I digress:
Bring up those pesky details, regarding the likes of QED, Dielectric Absorption, Poynting's theorem and possible application/effects, relative to frequency, that our musical signals are carried via photon or wave, outside the conductor and you're a KOOK?
Again: the Cargo Cult can only understand anyone with an actual background, experience and education in Physics/QED, based on their beliefs, education, experience and biases
Remember this?
One anecdote that some may find interesting: their walks in the woods and how Feynman's father would encourage him to look beyond the fact that something in nature exists, but into why and how.
It saddened him that while attending college, during a visit home and one of their walks: his dad asked what he was learning in college.
At that moment, he realized: if he tried to explain what he was learning, there was no way his dad could understand.
Einstein got that last one wrong (Quantum Entanglement), BUT- I still wish he'd been alive, when the Hubble Telescope proved, what he considered his, "greatest blunder" (his inability to bring symmetry to his field equation, without lambda).
No one can tell you whether/how your system, room and/or ears will respond to some new addition. There are simply TOO MANY VARIABLES.
LIKEWISE: no one can possibly know whether a new addition (ie: some kind of disc, crystal, fuse, interconnect, speaker cable, etc) will make a difference, in their system and room, with their media and to their ears, without trying them for themselves.
Some companies offer a 30 Day Satisfaction Guarantee, so- those that are actually interested, have absolutely nothing to lose, by trying (experimenting with) such.
Anyone that knows anything about the sciences, realizes that something like 96% of what makes up this universe, remains a mystery.
For centuries; humanity’s seen, heard, felt and otherwise witnessed phenomena, that none of the best minds could explain, UNTIL they developed a science or measurement, that could explain it.
The Naysayer Church wants you to trust their antiquated science (1800’s electrical theory) and faith-based, religious doctrine, BLINDLY ("Trust ME!").
Theories have never proven or disproven anything. It’s INVARIABLY testing and experimentation that proves or disproves theories/hypotheses.
IF you’re interested in the possibility of improving your system’s presentation, have a shred of confidence in your capacity for perceiving reality and trust your own senses: actually TRY whatever whets your aural appetite, FOR YOURSELF.
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