Why Are People So Concerned About How Others Spend Their Money?

@femoore12 I follow the thread on Reddit and it is an absolute cesspool. Cable deniers, clean power deniers all of it. It's really a place I choose not to even be involved in. It's like audioholics mixed with ASR with a bunch of 21 year old kids without the means to afford equipment berating ones with actual systems and knowledge. Sick place. 

Ever notice that someone posts and the same people attack? 

PS I just spent 500 on tweaks and it was some of the best improvements.  If you are ambitious yet don't believe me, come on over.  You can remove my tweaks and we will listen.

Me have beautiful smart triplet ambidextrous contortionist supermodel so there what have do with audio?

Get rid of TV, keep supermodel, trade sonic reflextion for difusion.

+1 charles1dad.  Envy and jealousy.  

I would bet that the worst offenders are also those who will pounce on ANY opportunity, real or not, to criticize a certain member here.  Every bit as tiresome and annoying; and both tendencies probably part of the same mindset.  If the guy really is so annoying to you, why stir that pot.  Live and let live.  

As a professional musician, audio is such a passion that it strikes me odd to have it called a “hobby.”  I’m one of the lurkers who reads the Agon threads every day but rarely posts; here to gather information and “hang” with others who love and appreciate good sound and the visceral joy that occurs at the nexus of a great system, a great performance, a great recording. 
 

+1 OP and everyone who seems to be here for the same reason. Passion is OK. Disagreement is very OK. Interest is OK.  Getting personal is not OK. Very not OK. It’s possible to disagree agreeably. It’s sad to see so many of these threads degenerate into food fights. Please stop…

I'd hate to be at a blackjack table with the people who think how others spend their money doesn't affect them.

 Perhaps some people like the idea of having influenced somebody in how they spent big $$$ on a purchase?

Some people are overly concerned with 'fairness'. My brother is like that. Funny thing is that he used to say that same thing as a child: 'That's not fair!'. Sounds good at face value (the idea of fairness) but it can get out of hand really fast. 

I've never been concerned about what/how other people do...none of my business. As long as they're not harming themselves/others.

@sandthemall 

I've never been concerned about what/how other people do...none of my business. As long as they're not harming themselves/others.

Well said. A surprising amount of what we do harms others. That's the tricky bit.

Agree 100% Russ. Some people have that puritanical streak that Mencken pointed out: people who live in terror that someone, somewhere, might be having a good time.

People who think a CCA through a cheap DS DAC and crummy class T amp makes them the moral superiors to those who invest in the companies and components that are really trying to advance the audio world, remind me of a mean old lady in town where I was trying to catch a train, who thought I was going too fast so she blocked both lanes of traffic diagonally on a busy road to slow me down. Literally stopped traffic dead. I bet she would be very critical of my stereo too 😂

It’s not the amount that people spend that I have any problem with.

Why should I?

It’s their money and their choice, and if it brings them happiness, then that can only be good.

However, what I do find disagreeable is the commonly propagated notion that spending more money always brings sonic improvements.

We’ve all repeatedly heard such terms as ’night and day’, ’jaw dropping’, ’beyond recognition’, ’gobsmacked’ (might be a British one) etc only to later discover for ourselves that no such differences ever existed.

Therefore it’s important that there are people who can point out such inconsistencies to at least give the inexperienced a fighting chance to get some value for money in an industry that often seems bedevilled by sharks, starry eyed cable enthusiasts and the dreaded snake oil purveyors.

It doesn’t matter how much money we may or may not have, we all want value for money, don’t we?

Thankfully, as reviewer Ken Kessler loves to point out, it’s never been as easy to get so much for so less.

https://www.soundstagehifi.com/index.php/international/soundstage-uk/1639-ken-kesslers-new-stereo-system-part-seven

in an industry that often seems bedevilled by sharks, starry eyed cable enthusiasts and the dreaded snake oil purveyors.

You need to find a new place to buy gear. 

But isn't the majority of this forum about exchanging advice on how to wisely spend time and money to achieve better music reproduction quality?  For example, should I buy the Wilsons or the Magicos?  When someone asks what amp should they buy one of the first replies is always "what's your budget?"  If someone posts that they need a new phono preamp with 60dB gain for their newly purchased low output cartridge and state that they only have $500 to spend, then isn't any suggestion a concern about how that person spends their money?  There's helpful advice and there's also less than helpful advice, but they are nearly always about how to spend time and money.

@onhwy61 ,

To me there’s a very clear distinction between inquiry regarding budget so that one can tailor their response and be more specific (Helpful?) with recommdations of potential products. For example, it the speaker budget is 5K then you wouldn’t suggest Magico S5 speakers. That is not being judgemental, but rather it’s being considerate and respectful of stated monetary limits.

If  on the other hand someone says their preamplifier budget is 20K and someone responses with, only a fool would pay that kind of money. You can get a preamplifier just as good for 3K. That’s judgemental, arrogant and rude. This type of reponse is a person asserting their own person standard’s or limits onto another. Big difference.

Charles

@charles1dad : well said!

Upon reading the original post my first thought was that's just plain envy.

Now after about 30 seconds(!) of reflection I do believe that there is more to it

than that.  I'm thinking that there is some jealousy involved as in "I can't believe

that the SO of this audiophile allows this amount of dollars to be spent on this stupid hobby"

Envy and jealousy are a very volatile mix.

Regards,
barts

BTW, I finally caught on to all the robot phrases.  Jeez I'm slow on the uptake.

BTW, I finally caught on to all the robot phrases.  Jeez I'm slow on the uptake.

Well, faster than me for sure. I still have no clue what and why Robots everywhere 😂

@cd318

However, what I do find disagreeable is the commonly propagated notion that spending more money always brings sonic improvements.

This seems exactly correct. For me, the value in this forum is the discussion of *criteria* for sonic excellence, and since virtually no one here has limitless resources, the tactical problem become how to optimize sound-for-dollar.

In short, spending "excessively" -- as measured by the (ostensible) purpose of an audio forum -- equates to "spending disproportionately on gear/treatments which won’t advance a *sonic* agenda."

Charles1dad, thanks for the thoughtful reply.  If I read into what you  said a little, it seems to be the intent of the person that determines the validity of focusing on another person's money.  If so, I could not agree more.  However, I think reasonable people can also make valid value judgements on the spending habits of others.  For example, a person buys a $500k house and it's far and away the best house in a neighborhood with a median home value of $150k.  Another person spend $500k on a house that need that needs some TLC in a neighborhood with a median home value of $1.5 million.  Each homeowner could be completely happy with their purchases, but one made a smart real estate move and the other didn't.  To point that out shouldn't be out of bounds.

Money is often conflated as measure of happiness and worth. Money is how we keep score and value other's purchases, this is perhaps the one objective critique we have available to us.

The level of pleasure another derives from their purchases is not so easily measured by any other means than money. Money often seen as measure of man's worth, why would it not be used in judging other's audio equipment purchases.

@sns ,

"Money is often conflated as measure of happiness and worth. Money is how we keep score and value other's purchases, this is perhaps the one objective critique we have available to us."

Money is perhaps the easiest to understand yardstick we have by which to measure performance.

Unfortunately, although there is no doubt a loose correlation with between price and performance, it's not always an accurate one.

Even more unfortunately, all of the other yardsticks necessarily require considerably more thought and time.

Scanning technical data and deciphering complicated graphs which bring back unpleasant memories of high school mathematics is certainly not for everyone.

As we have seen over the past 18 months, there's an awful lot of people don't like to think. Research, for some is almost a dirty word.

So, as things stand, we should not be surprised to find that money/price remains the most commonly used yardstick for some time to come.

No doubt one that many purveyor of dubious goods will continue to seek to exploit.

That alone is a good enough reason for debate to flourish in forums such as this one.

To me, Money is a terrible measure of happiness and worth. There are unlimited extreme examples of terrible rich people and great poor people and vice versa.

As for the OP, I do believe it is envy and the current Borg mentality among some.

Example: Say the neighbor has a much better house.

Some people would work very hard to have just as good of a house. 
 

On the other hand, some other people would rather burn the neighbor’s house.

In all fairness, I should add a third group of people to this example: those who don’t give a crap on neighbor’s house, and are more than happy with their own house. Obviously, this is perfectly fine.

Hi @onhwy61

I clearly see your point with the home/real estate analogy. Homes are in most cases bought for shelter and certainly to some extent as an appreciating investment asset over the course of time. In your example, yes one is definitely a wiser purchase than the other.

High End audio (At least for me) is more in the realm of a pleasure purchase rather than a need/necessity of a home (We all have to live and survive somewhere). It seems that audio is more guided by emotion and desire to enhance one’s connection to the joy of listening to music. I think this is in some ways more complex as it incorporates personal factors that determine satisfaction and happiness.

So for example someone with ample disposable income wants to buy a Robert Koda Takumi preamplifier. Someone else vehemently objects and says a Don Sachs preamplifier is excellent, far cheaper and just makes far more sense. The Koda  Takumi is a waste of money and foolish decision and you’re a gullible idiot (I’ve seen comments to this effect on this forum).

A person is berated by a stranger very critical and disapproving of how disposable income is spent (That is not his by the way). Absolutely none of their business and just plain wrong in my opinion. Different from the house buying scenario you submitted.

Charles

Time is the most valuable currency, what you do with it, who you spend it with, how you use it to help those around you - way more valuable than money...and it provides a better return too!

agree with @mitch2 ​​​​@charles1dad

money, like air and water, is critical for existence, but once you have enough of it to live the way you want, more of it doesn’t add much to the quality of life

so many people spend a lifetime chasing money, obsess over it, treat it as if it is an indicator of self worth -- these are such futile endeavors, once one surpasses what is ’enough’ - people don’t think clearly about the notion of ’enough’ when it comes to material wealth

otoh, time is the critical resource... i think of it this way - with effort and skill, you can fairly easily convert time into money, but when you are out of time, all the money in the world don’t mean a thang...won’t buy an additional minute

even on this forum, we just recently bid farewell to loving souls like almarg and oregonpapa -- their spirits are now gone, what's money got to do with it?  sooo irrelevant

when you are out of time, all the money in the world don’t mean a thang...won't buy an additional minute

I find this a very strange way of looking at life in the 21st century, obviously money purchases a lot of minutes. 

What a dumbass comment Dow Jones. Even for you. You don’t have to argue about everything just for the sake of arguing 

Well with that I'm off to practice my yoga. If you're not aware that money buys life then you're one of the oblivious privileged. 

Unfortunately, there are humans that intentionally try to take advantage of other's gullibility. "If it costs more it must be better." " If it looks cool it must sound better." Both assumptions are BS. Some of us out of the conviction of honestly and seeking the best reproduction for all try to warn people that their money could be spent better elsewhere. They can take that advice or not. I, and many others have no iron in the fire. We are not selling anything, In the end I could care less. At least I tried to counter the forces of evil. 80 to 90% of the products sold in a pharmacy are total BS. There is a lot of BS that is foisted on the audio community. Those of us with a scientific education who have some understanding of the issues have an obligation to explain why some products do not pass the smell test. After that it is up to the individual whether or not to purchase an item. People can think an item makes an improvement in there system's performance without a serious test of that opinion. In reality much of this is psychological and people have a hard time believing this. But, then they refuse to go about testing their own assumptions in a serious fashion. Why should any of us trust their opinion? I certainly don't. 

djones51

4,405 posts

12-18-2021 6:31pm

Well with that I'm off to practice my yoga. If you're not aware that money buys life then you're one of the oblivious privileged. 

….. Scratching my head really hard trying to understand what you exactly mean. Yoga, money buying life, oblivious privilege, and stuff. Deep. 

“I spent half my money on gambling, alcohol and wild women.  The other half I wasted”  - WC Fields.

Steakster +1000!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

WC Fields was brilliant! 

Charles 

On a different forum a dealer was discussing value for the dollar in equipment and someone chided him by saying, :Yeah, this is the guy that will sell you a $5000.00 DAC". As if that were ridiculous. I thought to myself hmm, I have a $5000.00 DAC. But I drive a four year old Honda, don't have motorcycles, snowmobiles, ATV's, expensive watches, a second car, club memberships etc. It's where I choose to spend my money. Who cares!

I thought to myself hmm, I have a $5000.00 DAC. But I drive a four year old Honda, don't have motorcycles, snowmobiles, ATV's, expensive watches, a second car, club memberships etc. It's where I choose to spend my money. Who cares!

Yes, this is a fundamental point. Some people would be aghast to learn the value of my system (~$15k), yet they think nothing of buying >$50k cars, while I happily drive a 2010 Audi bought used for <$10k.

@falconquest  and @whipsaw 

Exactly! It all is dependant on what people value and are passionate about. I know folks who are into boating and highend/custom motorcycles.  They spend a considerable  amount of money to acquire what they want. They are not into audio at all. Their perspective is 10K spent to assemble an audio system is "crazy"!  But 100K for the boat of their dreams is perfectly reasonable. 

What makes a person happy and emotionally fulfilled? This is as individual as anything could possibly be. So again from my perspective,  people should keep their noses out of how other adults choose to spend their money. This applies to this forum. If someone desires 50k speakers or a 5K phono cartridge (or cable) it's no one else's business to feel the need to mock or scold them.

Charles 

Delusional sense of self importance.….

I like pointing out you can get a whole lot of audio without spending a whole lot of money. Most of the time my posts are honest assessments, sometimes they are intended as humor. I appreciate the fact that some people spend a lot of money on gear;  it supports the industry and encourages research and design which trickles down to me.

For the cost of some Grado SR 60s you can have a mind-opening audiophile experience. A pair of Kef LS 50 self powered wireless speakers can get you stereo audio that should satisfy most people for a lifetime.  Anything more expensive than that will only be incrementally better, and logarithmically more expensive.  Everything is on a bell curve.

@kahlenz I agree with your first paragraph, but I can't imagine anybody who wants to hear or feel bass in their sound being satisfied for life (or even minutes) with a pair of Kef LS50's. Fine speakers, but not designed for bass - but if you want any bass, ya need a sub, and that will be WAY more than incrementally better if set up correctly. 

Happy Holidays!! 

Anything more expensive than that will only be incrementally better, and logarithmically more expensive.

Having owned Grado60s and LS-50s, I can tell you there is an audio world out there that is a quantum leap past that level of gear. But I do agree with what you were trying to say. 

I wonder if High End and High Cost are one of the same. But I think most of us possess enough maturity to understand that some others have more disposable income, it's just a fact of life. However some of the more interesting but simple systems on display here, are very intriguing, you don't always have to spend a lot to get a lot.

@larsman I would stongly recommend using a subwoofer system with the LS 50s.  I another recent post on another thread I recommended a Rythmik sub for the Kefs, but there are many out there that will fill the bill, including distributed bass arrays.

I am currently using a single REL t/5 with Harbeth P3 speakers.  By crawling around on the floor I was able to get good placement that limits resonant peaks and nulls.  I've also balanced the output and crossover to just gently introduce the low frequencies (nothing dramatic; but enough to open up the sound).  I may add another t/5 someday, but I'm pretty satisfied with what I have.

"Having owned Grado60s and LS-50s, I can tell you there is an audio world out there that is a quantum leap past that level of gear. But I do agree with what you were trying to say. "

I would venture to say that the difference between the LS 50w system and a million dollar system is less than the difference between LS 50s and typical laptop speakers.

A pair of Kef LS 50 self powered wireless speakers can get you stereo audio that should satisfy most people for a lifetime.  Anything more expensive than that will only be incrementally better

Some live in an alternate reality. I want to have what you are smoking.

"hey -- why bother with kobe and wagyu?... beef is beef... that stuff isn’t any different, just a waste of money -- famous quote by the beef eater and lifelong regular at sizzlers 😂🤣😆