I periodically look through the racks in the sales section and I cannot get over just how darn pricey those things are. I don't get it.
I mean I see racks that cost 1, 2 or even 3K. Really?
I've currently got two Ikea end tables stacked (not the Lack but some other ones) and they work rather well but sometimes I look just to see what's available. I see the prices. Then I'm back to being happy with what I've got.
It’s high end here so high end gear naturally goes on high end furniture.
Good furniture to put gear on is usually very robustly constructed so I don’t know if IKEA is a fair comparison. Anyhow the benefits will vary by room. With the rise of digital and vinyl more of a niche, the actual need is less than ever.
It should be obvious that while Ikea makes many useful items (I bought a couple of things in the past), they are pretty much disposable junk like clothing from Old Navy. Dedicated audio racks by the better name companies are well worth the money, and they have much more material and design value than anything that Ikea makes.
1. Because someone charges 3-10k for rack doesn't mean you or me will pay it.. I'm with you. 30k amps, 10k DACs, 20k speaker cables.
Someone will pay for sure. Just not me.. BUT I covet none of it.
Admire maybe, covet, never. 225.00 per 24 x 60 x 1 1/2 tier of BBlock. Serious manufacturing and shipping cost I'd say. 1k max for all the parts stain, serious spring loaded dollies and clear coat.. 6K Retail for 3 tiers
What do they pay their labor. 150.00 per hour.. Where is that application form.. I'm game at 67. I can turn out one a day. :-). Heck one a week would pay ALL the bills..
I'm right there having to BUY or BUILD for my new set up. I'll build. Not a lot of equipment racks that accommodate 2 TT and RtR that don't look just like a recording studio.. Gotta make it..
Here is a Lack Rack post by member Riotubes, which also contains a link to the original A'Gon thread (thank you A'Gon for storing/maintaining this info).
As I'm no longer confortable using power saws I would opt for a fine toothed box saw to cut the legs (think I may have used one on my second go round).
I made a few Lack shelves back then, but used upturned brass cones instead of spikes (still they were really good).
I then opted for a couple of Ken's Greater Ranges shelves as he was kind enough to make a few custom shaped units for my Studio Tech rack (requires cut off/snipped corners).
No answer to your main question (even though I do have one:-).
Anyway, if you want a good reasonably priced rack make a Lack Rack adhering to the basic/general guidelines as they are sound.
You certainly must do your research, but high quality audio racks can be considered a component. Not if you have $500 components, but if you have $10K or higher.... and particularly on turntables and tube equipment. They must be rock solid... many contain vibration isolation mechanisms or may be designed to do that. Like any other component you have to match appropriate spending the overall quality of your system.
I agree with ghdprentice’s remarks about choosing a rack that is in a price tier that makes sense in relation to the cost of your components. Like you, I have used Ikea products: Ingolf stools as speaker stands for about five years. I chose to buy Skylan stands as an overdue upgrade for my Harbeth speakers. (Yes, I’m aware that some here are certain that I should have bought stands with open bottoms, but that ship has sailed.) I recently chose to upgrade my rack from a basic Sanus model with glass shelves that served me well for about ten years. Its replacement is a Symposium Foundation Ultra rack, which cost almost ten times what I paid for the Sanus rack. The differences between the two racks are substantial too, from design to parts; and the Symposium is U.S. made. I would have preferred that the new rack had cost less but chose to buy it anyway. I believe that my system sounds better partly due to the new rack and recently purchased speaker stands. I funded purchase of the new rack with proceeds of sales of some used equipment. There are basic racks available for $200 to $300, followed by more attractive designs that are somewhat sturdier in the $500 to $1,000 range, and then more expensive options, up to $10,000 if you have funds to afford that.
Buy what you like and can afford. No big deal. Just like cars, watches, fine cutlery etc. You can find the tool to fix your issue. The price points vary but seldom do the more expensive ones outclass their lower price counterparts by the margin of the price differential. Does a Rolex tell time 1000% better than a Timex?
"You certainly must do your research, but high quality audio racks can be considered a component. Not if you have $500 components, but if you have $10K or higher.... and particularly on turntables and tube equipment."
Ridiculous Dollar cap statement on gear, IMO.
I have a Pilot 232 EL84 tube amp that I prefer to any ARC tube power amp that I’ve ever listened to (think I paid $200 for it) and other than reforming the lytics and replacing the ceramic cap that feeds the 5ar4 rectifier it’s stock.
My Thorens TD125 MKII/SME combo was $225/shipped and I decided to keep it after placing it on a properly implemeted Greater Ranges shelf.
My CAL Icon MkII was perhaps $400 and after placing it on a Greater Ranges shelf I sold the Bel Canto DAC I was using @ the time as the stock deck sounded better to me (on the shelf).
This said, my electronic gear is located outside the listening room (see system details) and yes a decent rack/shelves has still greatly improved the SQ of my source components.
As far as my tube power amps and preamps I simply use the stock shelves (having tried the Greater Ranges) as there was little difference in SQ (again taking into consideration that the gear is NOT located in the listening room and that even the stock shelves are supported by upturned adjustable brass spikes).
I tried making a stand out of Lack tables back when that was the inexpensive craze.
I bought five or six tables, drew up my diagram, marked the legs and proceeded to cut. Then I found out the legs were hollow. Nothing I read back then indicated there would be air where I anticipated wood/glue solidness.
I ended up with an apartment filled with Lack end tables.
My current rack started life as end tables used in my home. They have the top along with a shelf located near the bottom. I also have steel frame rack with glass shelves. Looks nice, but wanted to get away from the glass.
So I stacked the wood tables, placed spikes under the bottem legs, added a few of those blue antivibration squares between the bottom and top shelf.
Some of my gear is stacked and with my VPI table on top, it makes for a really solid and stable rack. I've also used Isopucks under most of my components on the rack.
Might a mega-dollar rack sound better? Maybe.
Am I willing to spend the money, reorganize my gear, and take the time to listen for the (possible) subtle improvements in sound?
Observing friends experience with Ikea racks deterred me from trying them for myself. I have no personal experience with these myself, but the prices seem reasonable.: Furniture > Audio Racks (pangeaaudio.com)
It depends entirely of how you want to look at it, esthetically and functionally. You pay for the design, the thinking, the materials, the craftmanship. Audio racks purpose, apart from supporting and arranging, is to have the least possible sonic impact . DIY is fun and good results may be achieved, though for doing this it will not come so inexpensive as you think, and in the end the finishing point would be the starting of of well thought rack. Yes they are expensive but effective vibration control can start or end there. I do not regret getting my Bassocontinuo ones.
You don't have to break the bank to get something that is very good and affordable. Look no further than Butcher Block Acoustics for extremely well made racks that are relatively affordable.
It is child's play to make a very functional rack. Threaded rods with painted PVC pipe spacers and large maple butcher block cutting boards. You can even buy fancy feet for the bottom if you like. I would use casters. Makes the rack much easier to move. Cost? Maybe $500 at the most. I would much prefer spending the money on a new cartridge rather than a rack. Many of them are flimsy. The only equipment that needs isolation is the turntable.
"You certainly must do your research, but high quality audio racks can be considered a component. Not if you have $500 components, but if you have $10K or higher...." So a $500 component isn't worthy of isolation? Glad you told me, I just about the waste my money on a top quality rack. Can't understand why some people think that audiophiles are elitist.
Reading through this thread has certainly opened my eyes. Now that I think about it, we took an old lawnmower motor, ran an old fan belt to an axle, we were able to drive all around the neighborhood. Why then does a Porsche Turbo cost $200k?
@ozzy62 , lay instinct is rubbish. How the f do you think an F22 would fly if electronics were sensitive to vibration. A targeting computer has a lot more to do than your silly DAC. The Russians were using tube electronics in their airplanes up to the early 70's. Worked just fine. You guys are hysterical. Knock yourselves out.
I'm really happy with results. It's as solid as a tank -- weighing more than a 100 lbs. I like the rustic and retro look very much, but it wasn't as easy to build as I thought it would be. Drilling precise holes through thick butcher block requires tools and wood skills. The cost of materials was around $500. The shelves are 1.5-inch thick and the legs are 3/4-inch plumbing pipe. You can see it in my system: https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/2056
After building this, it made me realize how much time and effort goes into building high quality furniture.
The notion that IKEA mass-produced cheap offerings measure up to a quality build audio rack is pure folly. Assuming that you have a high-end Hi-Fi system worthy of high-end accessories, (… low-fi and mid-fi systems … not so much a difference in my experiences )
My current experience:
(1) HARBETH recommends their bespoke select speaker stands as preferred recommendations. (They do not make their own stands) . Instead of buying their professed $$$$ marked-up faves, I had them custom cloned locally by a professional woodworking pro at a fraction of the price . (E.G.: their brand name made-in-Germany MSRP unit before duties and taxes: $1.500. ME: ~ $550 taxes all-included )
(2) A quality build hardwood audio rack from their recommended high-end UK brand was ~ $3,500 before duties and taxes. I had the same woodworker build a custom bespoke AND upgraded all-walnut unit with further upgraded features for $1,100 all-in taxes included,
YOUR TAKEAWAY:
- The recommended speaker stands DID improve the audio performance over my all-steel (and expensive..) steel speaker stands …they do work.
- The recommended audio rack with a bespoke isolation shelf DID improve the audio performance over my all-steel audio rack … they do work.
- In the interim I actually test-drove the uber-cheap IKEA catalogue units that were regrettably a POS in noticeable audio performance degradation comparatively with my high-end system models - full stop.
THE POINT:
(1) You only get exactly what you get for in this crazy hobby … BUT …and its a BIG “BUT” … you can do your homework to make it cost effective without the inflated marketing humbug and nutso prices.
(2) Advertising and aggressive marketing works for the uninitiated. Roll up your sleeves and do your homework ,
“Nobody ever lost a dollar by underestimating the taste of the American public.” ― P.T. Barnum
“… And in what business is there not humbug? “There’s cheating in all trades but ours,” is the prompt reply from the boot-maker with his brown paper soles, the grocer with his floury sugar and chicoried coffee, the butcher with his mysterious sausages and queer veal, the dry goods man with his “damaged goods wet at the great fire” and his “selling at a ruinous loss,” the stock-broker with his brazen assurance that your company is bankrupt and your stock not worth a cent (if he wants to buy it,) the horse jockey with his black arts and spavined brutes, the milkman with his tin aquaria, the land agent with his nice new maps and beautiful descriptions of distant scenery, the newspaper man with his “immense circulation,” the publisher with his “Great American Novel,” the city auctioneer with his “Pictures by the Old Masters”—all and every one protest each his own innocence, and warn you against the deceits of the rest. My inexperienced friend, take it for granted that they all tell the truth—about each other! and then transact your business to the best of your ability on your own judgment.” ― P.T. Barnum, The Humbugs of the World: An Account of Humbugs, Delusions, Impositions, Quackeries, Deceits and Deceivers Generally, in All Ages
For the naysayers and the believers, …
”… There are three sides to every story: your side, my side, and the truth. And no one is lying. Memories shared serve each differently ...”
lalitk - I didn't realize my post was a rant. Good to know.
mingles - That's a great looking rack!
I'm not willing to A/B an audio rack to see if I can hear any difference in the sound between different rack systems. I figure as long as it's solid, has spikes and/or antivibration devices, it should work for me just fine. IMO, Ikea furniture can work extremely well.
I don't do well with A/B comparisons normally because while I do feel I can hear subtle differences between some components, my ears adjust to the new sound within minutes and whatever I'm listening through sounds good. My auditory memory sucks compared to golden eared folks.
Or just maybe my gear quality is all pretty decent and the differences in sound are subtle at best. After all, I'm not comparing a lawnmower to a Porsche.
Whenever I do get into a new rack, I'll probably just DIY it as I need five shelves and the top as to be a certain height. I do not want to bend over or down in order to play records.
mijostyn, You need to try these things before you speak with authority. Microvibrations are a very real thing that effects digital transports and DACs, and it is easy to heat the difference when vibration draining devices are used.
Because they can be !! You are mainly buying HYPE !! Especially, "high end", low manufacturing volume, high bucks" It's the nature of things. For instance, do you really think that there is a loudspeaker design on the planet that's worth more than 1/2 a million bucks?
@axpert. Are the $1/2M Wilson speakers worth it? I think so. They do things no other speakers do. Truly incredible… as they should be. Why, do you have some experience owning some and feel like you got taken?
For anyone who cares about how the music actually sounds, I’d recommend you stay away from VTI. They look nice enough, but not well made and the rack rings like a bell. It will, and I mean WILL change the way your system sounds.
I have no first hand experience with the 2 spiked racks I suggested that the OP research.
They were the only two inexpensive "spiked" designs that I came up with on a quick Google search.
The big hitters, when I was researching racks 20 years ago, were Symposium, Systrum (sp?) and Solid Steel.
There's another one as well, but I'm blanking on the name.
My main goal (@ the time) involved adjustable upturned spikes for each shelf and lighter weight (though rigid) construction.
Looking back I really only required the adjustable spikes for leveling the moving parts source gear.
I prefer to use the original footers (or something very close to that) on my TT/CD deck and the Neuance shelves.
I gave up on specialty footers long ago as the various designs SO GREATLY altered the sound/sonic balance of my source gear to the point that my Thorens and CAL were barely recognizable as being Thorens/CAL sound wise.
They were designed with stock footers (Thorens and CAL knew what they were doing, IMO) and the Neuance shelves maintained their "house sound" while @ the same time improving upon it.
My main problem with both units was the bass/midbass, and this was remedied, to my satisfaction, with the addition of properly implemented specialty shelves.
By the way, I used real speakers back then (you know with woofers/tweeters/crossover;-).
There is also an ugly truth to face. Audiophiles, as a group, are fools with money. We may be individually knowledgeable, discerning and frugal but as a collective we are drunken sailors looking to shell out for the next thrill…and manufacturers know it.
I could take a $200 wooden rack, screw a big heavy fishing weight to the bottom that “neutralizes EM radiation”, coat it in a proprietary blend of “anti-resonance” varnish, and then add detailed instructions about how to calculate the proper “toe in” for your rack to experience “improved audio dispersion” and suddenly, I’ve got a $4000 rack, happily on sale for $3495. And sadly, not only would it sell, but I wouldn’t have to look far to find a willing enthusiast to give me a testimonial about the truly amazing improvements my state of the art rack has made to their system.
Im not saying real science can’t help build a better audio rack. I’m not saying sonic differences don’t exist. What Im saying is that we all want to believe, and that basic desire fuels a lot of hyperbole and industry deception on which we secretly feed, even as we critique, debunk and argue.
I'm using a very solid and reasonably heavy IKEA TV console stand it's got2 sets 2 adjustable height shelves side by side and some smaller cubby holes on top of those then solid pine top where I put the TV.
Works great but I bought Audioexklusive dCd equipment bases. These are £250 to £360 ish dependant on size each. Put them on the shelves I have, wow what a difference. 2 under my integrated Lyngdorf tdai3400. 1 under my power conditioner and 1 under my network switch and 10mhz ref clock. Wow what a difference they made adding 3 bases. I'm already using stillpoints or black ravioli under all my kit and power supplies.
If you isolate equipment with footers and bases the rack just needs to be solid.
I share your feeling re prices of equipment racks.I have three amplifiers, one requiring a preamp, three cd transports three dacs, turntable,and three tuners.I tried rotating each system onto a four level vertical audio shelf as I wanted to hear it, but old age, bad back and laziness made me look for alternatives.Googled make your own audio racks and came across a style that allowed me to create the number of levels, height and depth and width exactly required to hold all of my systems at one time. Uses 1/2" threaded zinc plated rods. Big zinc plated nuts and washers on the threaded rods and 5/8" thick shelving from Lowes.All of the metal hardware was ordered from McMaster Carr online.Let my wife choose the paint for the shelves.Couldn't be happier.I am a total klutz when building things and this did not come out perfect, but I made it work. It looks good enough for me and is functionally exactly what I wanted.I only screwed up when trying to drill the eight holes through three shelves simultaneously, in that I did not have enough clamps, so I had to move them and two sets of holes came out slightly off center. I cant see it, but I know its there.Unless you want to purchase a really beautiful expensive high end audio shelf that you can brag about, I highly recommend you take a chance on this style.
Having spent many pandemic lockdown months meticulously putting together my headphone system, it became very apparent that I had to get my gear off of the dining room table. So instead of chasing less expensive solutions like those available at IKEA, I simply went to the hi-fi store where I bought a lot of my stuff, and looked at what they put their $100K worth of components on. Yes the initial sticker shock was quite the slap in the pants, but after reading extensively I decided that investing in a five shelf Solid Steel rack was going to be well worth it.
While the Lack is a very good shelf for next to nothing, Finite Elemente and SRA racks (examples I own) are better sounding and better pieces of furniture. I am not sure of the cost question. One is designed to be ultra cheap and mass manufacturered. A smart guy named Ken Lyons promoted their use. FE and SRA are much better pieces of furniture, sound better and not mass produced.
Also the Lack is a shelf, not a unit. Solidity and stability was not the point. They are very light and rigid to yield clean bass. "Solid" actually means nothing to me by itself as far as performance is concerned. My flexy was solid and sounded horrible.
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