its that time again and there is a need for new wires. interconnects and speaker cables as I begin arranging a new system.
power cords should be addressed first IMO but they will have to wait a little while.
this time around I’ve decided to go with one maker rather than dive into the questionable sensebility of mixing and matching brands and or models of cables.
I’ve been out of the loop for a while so I’m asking the forum to share their eXP on who and what is around which doesn’t break the bank but does deliver the goods!
the current budget has set $1K to $2K per, for ICs and I’ll need two pair SE, and the speaker cable length is as yet still up in the air and depends on the final set up, but I’d prefer to keep the same brand and model there as the ICs probabgly.
I do not have a real issue with preowned cables but finding several of differing types though the same brand and model could be an issue… we’ll see I suppose.
FYI, Its an all tube powered, rig. Zanden amp, Thor line stage. it will be a digitally sourced streaming outfit albeit the front end is as yet one more question mark.
I am leaning towards the Aurolic G2.1 streamer and Bricasti DA. the jury however is not back with its verdict.
for the moment, the speakers are an easy IMP pr of JA Graphine Pulsars which also have a pr of SVS 3000 subs augmenting them.
blindjim> Exact ah mundo! what are you using now. that’s all. thanks.
I am using the Helix Image (Air) as posted on my web site
with the double Live wire and a single helix neutral wire
all wire is UP-OCC copper
the live wires are bare UP-OCC copper each inside their own Teflon tubes
the neutral on the power cables is stranded UP-OCC copper with Teflon insulation
My choices reflect
what I am personally prepared to spend on "wire"
what provides the best "Bang for the Buck" to my ears
my own personal threshold of diminishing returns.
I have tried other fabrication options like the Double/Double neutral variant and Mundorf Solid Silver live wires for the Live, but found they provided less benefit than I thought they might be capable of.
UP-OCC solid silver might be an option that caould provide a significant boost in performance
but that's way beyond this mere mortals budget
Other prefer the Double/Double approach and on more capable systems, they appear to convey the benefits better than on my own system.
Other brands of power cable I have auditioned include
Hi Doug, Many thanks. anecdotal and subjective feedback comprise the wealth of the rhetoric, choices, topics, who’s hat is in who’s camp, tubes vs sS and vice versa.
I sort of thought, after the fact your response would come back as you posted. No problemo.
I agree on leaning hard on personal eXP as to what is truly better and not merely different. albeit even than to convey such an account in many instances the contributing factors not being told but which are influencing the presentation, e.g., the room itself,the ancillary goods up or downstream, individual preffs, how pedantic a hobbyist is, are they gear hounds or easily satisfied? etc.,
loads of circumstances can muddy up those waters a bit or a lot when one gets him or her self sold on the whatever piece as being better or best.
best for them?
best to date?
better is the objective. of course but how much better and for what price, as cost will always be a factor for the majority of hobbyists.
the threshold of diminishing returns is a given. Only its actual impact is the question.
ultimately one has to pull the trigger on something at some point to find out where truth and honesty reside in any component. As the costs escalate just putting your finger on the trigger, let alone pulling it also escalates anxiety levels and might preclude ever truly resolving the matter..
iconoclast have sure peaked my interest so … maybe… just maybe.
blindjim, you asked, "would you say it is likely the aspect of diminishing returns is applicable as well to the presumably good, beter, best levels of refinement inherent in each modle?"
As I have not heard all three levels of Iconoclast Cables, I am not in a position to answer that question. One must have an experience with a product's different models to be able to discuss whether there are diminishing returns as the higher models are considered. What would constitute diminishing returns? Different performance levels, performance relative to another set, or performance relative to a subjective pricing schema? The entire question is fraught with difficulties and a great deal of subjectivity. I prefer to discuss what set of cables outperforms other sets of cables, and the sonic characteristics of the cables. "Diminishing returns" doesn't really convey any usable information. :(
Would I expect Iconoclast to suffer diminishing returns more than any other cable when moving up a product line? No, I would not.
douglas_schroeder Jim, simply put, the three lines of cables are all designed similarly, according to modeling and measurements
Though I have not compared in my room all three, just the top of the line, Galen explained it to me as the cables having three levels of refinement/definition. There is not a skewing toward different sonic signatures, as happens when the geometry and construction as well as conductor material are changed.
The sonic signature is similar in all three, but the degree of refinement improves as one goes up the line.
blindjim> well, that does help out. Thank you.
would you say it is likely the aspect of diminishing returns is applicable as well to the presumably good, beter, best levels of refinement inherent in each modle?
@sns Perhaps I misunderstood Blindjim's question, I assume d he was asking about new model cables introduced in 2021.
blindjim> my bad. sorry. lookibng back I see how things might be misconstrued.
if I wanted to ask about current wires being considered SOTA I would have said:
Which 2021 cable looms are you using in your system? instead.
i figured the topic here asks for a wider set of feedback. input then might be on what is new, but the thrust as I inquired is on current systems using perhaps new or older means to loom an audio outfit.
in my brain it seemed ‘crystaline’.
up there too.but at times I have blind squirrels juggling knives
williewonka @blindjim - you asked... who makes your fav cable loom in 2021?
I like my DIY designs the best - see link :-)
blindjim> Exact ah mundo! what are you using now. that’s all. thanks.
sns Can attest to quality of DiY Helix design. I now exclusively use this design for all my power cords, and I've owned or demoed top of line or near top of line from Purist, Synergistic, Shunyata, Elrod, VH Audio,
blindjim> Ditto on the brands you named having been in one of my rigs or another thru the years.
the aspect of their actual design revolving around the ‘helix’ configuration however, did escape me… then. but no longer.
a Taipan helix Alpha PC and an Elrod statement III PC remain my favs. albeit there is the occasional Virtual Dynamics, some VooDoos, and lately a pair of audio Envy I alluded to earlier. I wish I had never sold off my other Taipan Helix Alpha’s.
Can attest to quality of DiY Helix design. I now exclusively use this design for all my power cords, and I've owned or demoed top of line or near top of line from Purist, Synergistic, Shunyata, Elrod, VH Audio, I'm sure I'm forgetting something here.
But if you do have to buy a branded product - I like the design of
IN-AKUSTIK and they perform extremely well - Probably the best "value" for money right now.
In second place I would opt for a Nordost product.
Perhaps I misunderstood Blindjim's question, I assumed he was asking about new model cables introduced in 2021. Whether my assumption correct or not, I question evolution of of cables in regard to sq. Is it marketing or real innovation driving new models of cables?
Jim, simply put, the three lines of cables are all designed similarly, according to modeling and measurements done by Galen Gareis, who, if I recall correctly, was not just an engineer, but head of development at Belden. Audiophiles should rejoice that here in 3 different price categories one finds the optimum design offered, not two compromised designs and one optimized. The geometry and construction is the same in all 3, which is very rare for a cable company.
Though I have not compared in my room all three, just the top of the line, Galen explained it to me as the cables having three levels of refinement/definition. There is not a skewing toward different sonic signatures, as happens when the geometry and construction as well as conductor material are changed. The sonic signature is similar in all three, but the degree of refinement improves as one goes up the line.
Just this past weekend I tried three different sets of power cords again on the Legacy Audio i.V4 Ultra Amps, just to see if I could get improvement with the rest of the Iconoclast set. Nope; the affordable Belden BAV power cords match the best with the Iconoclast cables. Best focus and resolution without stridency, and lovely tonal balance. Don't expect that kind of result merely by slapping some of the BAV power cords into a mixture of cables. If you're not using a set of cables, you're making a mess. Maybe a nice sort of mess, but a mess nevertheless. :)
@Doug S I noticed finally the cost for each tier or perhaps better put, constructs albeit I've found nothing specific aattending to the actual 'voice' or attributes of the differing metal typess being offered... TPC; OFC; CCC.
it seems to me these subjective notes upon those factors which can not be meassured, ought to be penned. at least in general terms. otherwise why opt for an IC costing more than tripple the price of the least expensive 'entry level' link?
0more learned or experienced audio nuts than myself might be able to extrapolate from the maker's own electronically measured findings the sonic characteristics for each bundle of Iconoclast links but I can not .
any input on the sonic signatures of each variation from entry level to the upper end would be sincerely welcomed!
Not sure I believe cables on ever evolving sound improvement continuum. Only material improvements in metallurgy and dialectics, or construction design would account for sound quality improvements. I'm aware of graphene which some claim to result in improved sound. Please inform us to any other manufacturer claims that are in fact true innovations.
I recently got some WyWire interconnects after buying the WyWire Platinum headphone XLR. Alex at WyWire seems to know his stuff when it comes to wires. I think he is doing a 40% off because it is a big company anniversary.
My other cables are Audience and Benchmark. The Audience and WyWire are very good and are relatively affordable.
I do appreciate the plus ones on iconoclast wires.
as this thread states " loom ... in 2021" its all about me catching up having been inactive or out of the loop for some time due to health and unrelated obstacles which prevented me from being more involved in the past time.
I've been a member here for nearrly 20 yrs. Tech is always on the move and there is always the hope someone will as Doug said produce products that are neither snake oil nor filled with too much 'unobtainium' or 'can't affordium'.
last time I was actively putting together or tweaking an outfit was about 2012 or so.
things change. this is merely an attempt to get myself updated as to who is who, or who is doing what, so to speak. THX ALL.
Audio Bacon also was impressed with Iconoclast. You could Google that for more info. Audio Envy is a really good start for newbies as a baseline. Triode Wire Labs,Cullen Cable, and ZenWave (more pricey) are my favorites. They all have trial periods and Dave at ZenWave has loaners.
Audio Bacon also was impressed with Iconoclast. You could Google that for more info. Audio Envy is a really good start for newbies as a baseline. Triode Wire Labs,Cullen Cable, and ZenWave (more pricey) are my favorites. They all have trial periods and Dave at ZenWave has loaners.
Thanks Doug. that makes perfect sense... now that you added this added info. I was there and as you mentioned, looking for an array or tiers and not merely for the options you pointed out.
Jim, whenever I post anything associated with my reviews with a link, moderators eliminate it. As a reviewer, supposedly I have vested interest in such activity, even though I am not paid to write and have no affiliation with the products I review.
Finding the company is easy; do a search for "iconoclast cable" and you will see the website. There is one design for the speaker cables, one design for RCA IC, and another for the XLR IC, and one for the power cord. There are no tiers of different geometries and conductor materials with different construction.
For example, on the Iconoclast Cables home page, click on Products, then Speaker Cable, and you will see toward the bottom of the page the "To Order" section. The three levels of cables are all of the same geometry and number of conductors, but vary according to selection from a choice of 3 conductor materials. You can also choose your terminations.
Iconoclast is no-nonsense about cables, offering a highly researched and modeled design, but at 3 price levels based on conductor material. The same principle holds for the interconnects, although to get the optimized L,C, and R measurements for the RCA and XLR cables, they required somewhat different geometries.
I think you are looking for more levels and different cables altogether. Iconoclast is about offering 1 idealized design for each type of cable, but at 3 different price points, determined by conductor material.
gee thanks everyone. sevewral posts here have really got me interested in brands I’ve no real world eXP, and for me, that is a rarity, especially about those options that are not main stream upper range products. well at least not upper priced range products..
@builder
Blindjim> Sorry. I was trying to avoid being too pedantic relying on folks around here acknowledging this past time application of the term ‘loom’. . looks like everyone got it but you. Its all good input regardless and I’m very grateful for each member’s feedback. THX
Triode; Darwin; AA; etc
@Doug S…. I tried to look into the brands and your accounts of them but have had some trouble finding descriptions of the Iconoclastic wires in general…. tiers, costs, etc. maybe you could drop a link in here pointing to where one could get more info about their build and where they can be purchased.
I typically review by comparison to entire sets of cables, which imo is the only proper way to assess them. I care little what someone says about a wire divorced from the context of the entire manufacturer’s set.
So, kudos to blindjim for being one of the very few who ask a proper cable question, pertinent to the audiophile who wishes to actually advance their system! Mixed cable discussions are pretty well worthless.
I have had the pleasure of using many fine cable sets in 14 years of reviewing. My current reference, superior with a wide array of systems and speakers, is Iconoclast Cables. It is also in my experience the cable most researched and supported by modeling and measurement. No wonder it sounds so good. See my review of Iconoclast Cables at Dagogo.com
I have also reviewed and continue to enjoy using as ancillary, partially added cables for fine tuning the reference set, Clarity Cable, TEO Audio, AntiCables, and Snake River Audio Cables.
Pursuant to blindjims inquiry, note that Iconoclast uses the same design in all 3 levels of its cables, which is a big bonus to the person who can only afford the entry level. An actual highly researched, modeled, well-made cable that doesn't break the bank. That is rare.
I recently purchased a set (speaker, jumpers, and xlr interconnects) of Synergistic Research Foundation cables. Dramatic improvement over the Blue Jeans set of cables that I was previously using in my system. The improvements are so good I’m getting ready to try out the Foundation power cables. Cheers.
Using a full Triode Wire Labs loom (except for Supra ethernet). Did some A/Bs with a couple other well-regarded brands but the TWL sounded so good in my system (and at a reasonable price point) that I held off on further comparisons.
At your budget, get Duelund tinned copper wire and have someone from this site or a small, independent cable co. to make up your power cords and interconnects. Speaker wire doesn't need terminations. Check out Jeff Day's blog.
Darwin cables. Take a look at their specials section if you want to save some money. Lots of vendors use their cables at audio shows so their gear can sound their best. For awhile, they had the fastest capacitance of any make out there. Great guys to talk to.
Using an entire loom from Audio Art Cable. Honestly, I could not be more pleased with my system using all of Rob’s cabling. I have had dozens of brands and price points here and this is the best loom to date. Strongly suggest emailing or better yet calling Rob Fritz to discuss your system components / budget and he will steer you in the best direction. From entry level to SOTA he has things covered.
No BS, terrifically built cables at affordable prices for what they offer. Basically three tiers for each line, you can build a loom with either one. Other than "SilverDart" line (Graphene dielectric & shielding when used), the other two tiers are very affordable.
jjss49 start with some basic, low cost, quality cabling and move from there
blindjim> golden input. thanks a lot. makes perfect sense.
just remembered I have some older Audio art rCAs about.
I did buy a couple Audio Envy PCs and don’t think I’ll get more cables from there. not sonically errant, just not a very robust build quality.
geof Look at the Shunyata Research Venom line, or if budget allows, Delta.
blindjim> THX. its astonishing how many brands I’ve used in the past have escaped my memory. I’ve used the Shunyata ’snakes’ PCs to great effect in past rigs.
my fav SR PC was the Taipan Helix Alpha. sweet cord indeed.
twoleftears If you're looking at ICs, SCs, and PCs, I'd look at Triode Wire Labs.
blindjim> you are echoing a friend of mine as you point to Triode. Thanks.
pauly Wireworld. Their low end stuff is pretty good value for money and fairly neutral.
blindjim> again, thanks for jogging the ‘ol memory banks.
my previous FAV main ICs were usually Synergistic Re of one sort or another. in fact today I still have 3 sets of their speaker cables in various levels of performance, active and static, bi wired and std.
with previous eXP Cardas, Nordost, and SR still have me inparting some confidence in these lines.
what is different now is the OMG lofty price levels even their midlevel ranges demand. WOW!
the Cardass further exasserbates things in my mind as thier various tiers of performance are confusing. clear? blue? beyond?
that said and from hearing them loom a couple rigs at past audio shows, they do interest me. as did, AQ cabling, oddly enough. i hearda Luxman & Magico A3 pairing wired front to back with aQ and found it quite engaging.
the problem with audio shows is the wiring in use is often well above entry level or even mid level fare.
if at this point i had to throw $$$$ into the wind hitting and hoping so to speak I’d likely opt to pitch it at the atmosphere line from Synergistic but I will check out what I can about Triode and some others mentioned here. THCX
My strategy is always to finalize the components before touching the interconnects and power cords.
My components are outstanding and I want to have my cables and interconnects get out if the way and let me hear the components (a relatively new thing for me… earlier components had flaws). So I now use contemporary Transparent Ultra. Power cords are a mixture or Transparent and Cardas Clear Beyond.
You must have a verified phone number and physical address in order to post in the Audiogon Forums. Please return to Audiogon.com and complete this step. If you have any questions please contact Support.
