@cleeds Thanks for wake up, I try to never use that ridiculous word, especially in regard to audio!
@coltrane1 No doubt optimized streaming is a rabbit hole, but then so is audio in general, and don't even talk to me about vinyl. Audiophiles are rabbits, so rabbit holes are home base.
|
I recall seeing noise measurements ethernet vs fiber somwhere, was cited by post on some thread here. My use of objective was directed towards near universal consensus of individuals ...
Thanks for clarifying. That isn't what I imagined when you said you had "objective findings."
|
I’m happy I never got into streaming. Sounds like another audio rabbit hole where you can spend $1000’s.
|
@cleeds Actually, I recall seeing noise measurements ethernet vs fiber somwhere, was cited by post on some thread here. My use of objective was directed towards near universal consensus of individuals hearing lower noise floor with fiber. I also alluded to possibility they may not hear this vs optimized ethernet.
My own experience points to variable outcomes. I tried fiber conversion prior to streamer, found it inferior to ethernet. Even greater benefit was derived from a JCAT net card XE in my ATX/Windows based motherboard custom steamer. Serves same purpose as Network Acoustics Muon.
|
So I have a Lumin d1 and was told that it has galvanic isolation so a Eno filter is not needed. Any comments?
|
Lowered noise floor is likely the first thing one will notice with insertion of fiber, this will generally be an objective finding.
While many cite a lower noise floor with fiber, they usually do so by saying the noise isn't noticeable until it's gone. So it's interesting you've found a way to establish that objectively. Did you do that through measurement, @sns?
|
@emil LOL
Glad to hear it made a difference. The drop in the noise floor is in line with what I experienced in my system as well.
Now you can add a better Ethernet cable like that Purist I mentioned or another good cable of your choice and take it to the next level. The Purist May rebalance the bass to a degree. It’s one of its strengths.
|
Lowered noise floor is likely the first thing one will notice with insertion of fiber, this will generally be an objective finding. If one is comparing to an optimal ethernet setup it may be difficult to discern a difference here. With my present streaming setup I can have both optimzed fiber and ethernet chain. At present I'm most enjoying optimized ethernet from ISP through streamer ethernet output to Sonore OpticalModule, so fiber from the module to dedicated streamer(OpticalRendu). Full ethernet chain using custom streamer minus the Sonore fiber components not quite up to the fiber setup. I have one further ethernet upgrade available to me that could change the equation.
At this point, based on my own experience and many others, I'd suggest both routes are capable of delivering a top flight streaming experience. One should evaluate comparative reviews of these two modes with a critical eye. One will find vast majority of these comparisons between optimized and non-optimized modes of bit transmission.
|
So Wednesday my Amazon delivery arrived. I unpacked the two FMCs, fiber cable, LPS with its two extension cords. Connections were made easily except that the extension cords that amazon bundles with the LPS did not fit the input jacks in the FMC. Bummer. Luckily, the LPS provides one and I happen to have a spare.
I powered up the system and and queued up my list a test songs that I'm very familiar with but due to the amount of times I played them no longer enjoy. I checked my DAC and its white LED light is lit indicating it is receiving signal from the Lumin. Stting up the fiber was a success. Very easy to do BTW.
Before i pressed play, I did notice an eerie feeling as if something was not right. It was a silence that i could "feel" if that makes any sense.
Anyway, I pressed play on the Stone's " Cant you hear me knocking" and that guitar rift blasts out of my right speaker. Audio Physic speakers have a reputation of " disappearing" but this was different.
This was special . I listen thru the whole song, Enjoying it as if I was hearing it for the 1st time. In a way that was true. Hate to use this cliche but I was hearing deeper into the mix. Hearing things I've never noticed before. Loving it. Track after track of songs that I enjoyed at one time but now were reborn.
I Did not experience any glare or glassy sound that Paulie Walnuts experienced :^)The bass did thin out a bit but in a good way for me.
If you enjoy detail, look into fiber. I can understand some may find it thin sounding.
No bloom or warmth here.
Honeymoon period? Maybe. I have until January 31st to return
|
Hi @emil, I agree with @audphile1 here and have also avoided Fiber for those reasons. Plenty report it either is or is not an improvement. I recommend the Acoustic Network's filter. I have the Muon and it made an immediate improvement, and does not have to be plugged in, which I find a big advantage for all the possible noise, switching power supplies, and space and clutter.
I also upgraded to a Silent Angle Bonn 8 switch. This was less impactful for me. It is available as I have just upgraded my switch to a JCAT M12 Gold which is amazing a clearly an upgrade, but much more $.
Ignore the naysayers. Let us know how the fiber sounds!
|
I feel from where you are presently, a good Ethernet re-ganerator would be a logical step. I had good digital Ethernet and USB cables however when I added the EtherREGEN by Uptone-Audio, that made the most difference in cleaning up the noise and improving the micro-detail than any cabling changes I made. Uptone-Audio will soon be releasing their 2nd-Gen EtherREGEN device which I will be purchasing and either selling mine or giving it to my best friend.
Good Luck in your digital improvement decisions and search.
|
It's easy. I stream through Lumin. It's great. I have 1000s of CDs I play through a high end Vd player. But if you want better sound, it's easy. Go vinyl. It will always be more pleasurable to your ears. It just will. My vinyl playback cost less than my streamer and CD player but is my go to first choice.
|
This is an interesting thread. I’m very curious about what the fiber connect will do to improve your digital signal. I’m generally curious about the whole bits part of the chain and what magnitude of improvements can be made there. For $163 it’s a no brainer to try. But if you start to get into $500+ changes, I would personally upgrade with room treatments or a DAC upgrade or an amp upgrade. I have Belles Aria monoblocks and they’re great but I know there are better amps out there. Let us know what you hear. Thanks.
|
I tried fiber and it wasn't right for me. It is a rabbit hole and you wont get to the promised land via Amazon.
I wish I had seen this before trying it.
I have an ENO AG filter and it is nice. I like the SOtM Cat7u better, I havent heard the new muon yet.
|
OP,
I look forward to hearing your evaluation.
|
Be sure to try LPS with at least last FMC before passing judgment, lps on both even better. The lps insures the garbage emanating from the FMC will be eliminated, switch mode power supplies injecting the noise.
I also mentioned the Sonore optical products as upgrade to the generic FMC. Better clocks and internal power supplies within these products substantial improvement over generic. Still need quality LPS with this. In the case feeding streamer one would use two Sonore OpticalModule in series.
Optimized optical is pretty hard to beat, even the generic with lps very nice.
|
Here’s the thing with the fibre optic conversion…it’s resilient to the EMI and RFI after the signal is converted into fibre optic, however the converter modules themselves introduce their own garbage into the signal. In my system it manifested itself as glare, glassy and thin sound and that didn’t work out for me. YMMV.
You have to find the solution that does the least amount of harm while removing what doesn’t belong in the signal.
That is why ultimately I returned the fibre optic converters and went for the passive Network Acoustics Eno streaming system.
I agree with Amazon return policy it would be a sin not to try this fibre optic stuff. If it works for you, that’s an awesome first step.
|
Thanks everyone for responding.
I've decided to try the fiber converter route with power supply from Amazon totaling $163 all in. No brainer in not giving it a shot especially with amazon's easy return policy.
Should have it by Wednesday. I'll report back
|
Another vote for decoupling the noise from the copper lan cables with fiber right before the streamer. I use an ifi silent power ps for the fiber back to copper conversion box with audioquest rj45 1ft cable to streamer. All for less than $300. I believe galvanic isolation is the only thing that matters with the digital network assuming you have a solid gigabit network...
|
Barts,
There really is nothing you can do to eliminate jitter from the media provider companies as their signal pass through multiple computer servers and switches before it make it into your house. Unless you have a dedicated trunk from the Tidal servers there really will never be a clean signal from them.
|
@chilli42
The signal is full of jitter from upstream connections. Once that jitter is introduced, there is no way it can be changed or removed.
Which "upstream" connections are you referring to?
Regards,
barts
|
.....To Analogue for better sound quality :-) !!!
|
Does not matter what you do. You will not be able to improve the sound quality sourcing through Tidal or Qobuz. The signal is full of jitter from upstream connections. Once that jitter is introduced, there is no way it can be changed or removed. Best place to start is with your own local files PCM or DSD. Put together a collection of your favorite music on a local disk … you can use Tidal or Qobuz for discovery. Once you have this ‘local’ music collection in place you can revisit the hardware again. Trying to improve the sound quality of Tidal and Qobuz is a fools errand.
|
As others have mentioned, get a switch with its own clock, an LPS for your U2, experiment with the fiber optic route or an ENO filter, better cables, and of course a better DAC eventually. IME every step in the digital chain counts, and ignore the "its just 0 and 1s" trolls.
|
@emil I have the same LUMIN streamer, it’s excellent. I also manufacture the ENO filter, so if you’d like to get in touch I can tell you about my experience with the LUMIN.
|
Here’s the thread I started where I posted more details on the comparison between different ethernet configurations including the optical set up.
|
Upgrade everything if possible , a good usb or Ethernet cable are at least $750 each , ether regen helps most critical Ethernet cable is where the hub is
buy the best dac you can afford ,by far the most important component
for all detail and resolution, sound signature start here . For your budget I would Highly recommend the Denafrips Pontus2 , ifyou could come up with $4500 the
the New Denafrips Terminator2 12 th anniversary but for $2k the pontus 2 beats
many dacs at 2x the cost.
|
@emil I also use EERO and had Lumin U1 Mini. I highly recommend Purist ethernet cable. It’s a sleeper.
If you can pick it up used its insane value. New retail is around $370. I A/B’d it with Supra ethernet cable(stock and the telegartner terminated versions) and there’s a significant difference. I sold the Supra.
Purist gives you lower noise floor, much better details and soundstage and more vivid presentation.
If you want to spend more, the Network Acoustics Eno streaming system is very good but it’s more of a different flavor than the Purist in that the Eno does everything that Purist does but in a slightly more relaxed way. I like both the Purist and Eno.
I tried the fibre optic solution with Lumin U1 Mini and while it did lower the noise floor and presented a more detailed soundstage, it didn’t sound as natural as the purist or the eno. I ended up sending that stuff back. I would not recommend a switch as the Purist or the Eno will be enough of an improvement and result in less clutter.
|
If you haven't used good feet to isolate your gear, that can be a significant improvement. When I tried it under a DVD player used only as a CD drive it was like I bought a new unit for at least an order more magnitude. And while that was the biggest improvement, isolation under every piece of electronics was audible.
|
@emil
Another vote for ENO passive filter, they do offer 30 days return policy.
|
The Eno filter made a big difference in my system. (Router>.5 ft Cat 8> switch > 30 ft Cat 8 > ENO > Streamer)
|
Add this to your optical set up. It made a nice improvement over the wall plugs. It has two cables and can power both FMC’s. Optical made a big difference for my system.
|
Thanks for the info on your system. Looks thoughtfully assembled with some good choices.
I don’t know, you have a pretty good setup. If you have $1K. I would save it and wait until you can invest in a better integrated amp as your next step. In the mean time I would work with your setup, room treatments. Enjoy what you have. Assuming you have a good quality power cord on your amp.
You can get small incremental improvements by fiddling with your network. But there are so many opportunities. All opportunities must be weighed… interconnects, power cables, isolation, set up, components.
|
@emil
The cat cable is the last thing to change. Why not try a Linear power supply? The power supply on the U1 and the U2 is the weakest link. Check out SBooster.
|
Get a ViaBlue EP7 B4 Christmas. Triton Cables is closing - liquidation sale.
Silver plated. I upgraded and sold my Supra.
|
Yep, you have correct connection protocol. If going fiber route do linear power supply for at least last FMC, lps for both best. Also may want to consider moving to Sonore OpticalModule and OpticalRendu vs the generic, well worth the premium. I'd estimate your setup will expose the improvement.
|
Thank you all for your input.
So the rest of my system compromises of:
Audio Mirror Tubadour 3, Belles Aria Signature Integrated, Audio Physic Tempo Plus. All power cables by Triode Wire labs. Digital and IC are Wywires Platinum. Silversmith Audio Fidelium speak cables. Puritan 156 power conditioner.
Going fiber? Relatively Inexpensive and with Amazon's easy return policy no reason not to try.
Just so I understand, I still use my Supra Cat cable to connect from my eero mesh into to 10Gtek converter. From there I connect the optical cable to another 10gtek converter and finally another Cat Cable to my Lumin streamer?
|
OP stated he had $1k budget. Best results for that budget would be either fiber conversion or Eno filter if staying with ethernet. The good thing about going this route is both remain effective even as rest of streaming setup improved.
|
What is the rest of your equipment? There is a place to show under your UserID. This gives a much better perspective. Cables are very component and system dependent. Typically one wants to stay in a cost range given your overall component sound quality. But the guidelines are really flexible because of system differences.
If your other equipment supports higher quality sound upgrade your streamer. If your other equipment supports it you will get a very significant increase in sound quality by upgrading to a, for instance… recommended, Aurender at the $5K, $10K, and $20K component range.
|
Go here, several folks here have taken my advice and are quite pleased with the results. Get the fiber in what ever length you require. EMI and RF will not travel down fiber and I recommend using the fiber on your longest run and terminate with a HQ CAT 8 cable. Crystal clear!
|
I was using a 30' CAT 6a cable from my hub to my streamer and recently switched to isolation using fiber endpoints and a short CAT 8 (LinkUp) cable. The upgrade was significant on my system. Guessing there was more noise than expected on the old line and it was affecting the sound/signal.
Given the distance you are covering with your system, this might be a good fit. It is cheap to try, about $100. There is thread here on AG discussing it and recommended components.
|
I just got a U2 mini and love it. I had a high end digital coax cable, a mogami digital coax cable and a mogami digital AES cable (xlr). I could not hear any difference between the cables. I think it is because the Lumin and the Dac are so good.
I heard a huge difference between my Esoteric dac and my reimyo dac. I would focus on upgrading your dac. If you have questions on cables Mike Kay of Audio Archon is an expert in digital music streaming plus he is honest and has stopped me from spending more money on cables that won't make a diff.
Best JH
|
Can you post all of your system components under your profile?
If you are going to cleanup digital, start with filtered Ethernet cable as your last link prior to entering the streamer. Also, do whatever you can afford to clean up the last few feet of power to your components.
|
What do you perceive as being wrong with your current set up?
|
For cable I went with relatively inexpensive but solid AQ forest for my long run (8 meters). The forest uses silver plated conductors which I think digital benefits from. For more money you can get more silver as you move up the line. If they don’t make this in long enough sections for you, then I would look for bulk calble with silver coated conductors and a klein cable crimping kit. I have a buddy with that kit and it does a good job.
I did go with an audiophile switch. I put it 18" from my streamer and then used a much higher quality cable for the short run (AQ Vodka right now, IIRC, I hate all these random names). The swtich also provides ethernet to my TV, an AV streamer, and my PS audio power plant (yes, it likes to talk to headquarters).
I used an Etherregen switch. Love the performance of it. It runs kindo warm which may lead to reliability problems down the road. but so far so good. You’ll have to buy it on the secondary market but they are available. If you aren’t going to do this tomorrow, soon Uptone audio will be releasing a new version.
The other thing you can do is a power supply upgrade to the swtich. Uptone sells one but it runs way hot and indeed has reliability concerns. I resold mine to a guy who loves the power supply and is stocking up on them since he has experienced failures. I highly recommend Farad power supplies which run much cooler and are very, very clean. I have their stack powering my Dave DAC and will get one soon to power my etherregen switch.
Jerry
PS you mentioned English Electric. That switch was high on my list and I'm not sure how I decided on the Etherregen over it. But this is a Chord company and as I mentioned above I have their flagship DAC and love it.
|