I'm 58 and just recently decided that a nice, dedicated two-channel listening room will be my thing - I don't golf, or ski, or spend crazy money on a sports car, so I think my wife is good with this!
My room is less than ideal - 3/4 below grade room, 17'x24' with a 6'10" ceiling height, and a few weird corners, poles, and beams to deal with. I have a nice, new love seat, tables, and lamps, with a couple of 8x10 rugs - its pretty cozy and comfortable, but the walls need something (discussed below).
My equipment today - Vintage 1980 Klipsch Heresys, with a pair of REL T/7x subs, McIntosh MC312 amp, McIntosh C47 pre, and an Eversolo A6 (with a 4TB SSD). I have decent cabling and go balanced from the A6 to the C47, using the A6 DAC. My rack is VTI BL404 from stands and mounts.com. 15A wall power into a Panamax M4315-PRO for all components including subs.
The audio quality I have right now is the best I have ever had in my life, and I am loving it! But I know I can improve it over time in ways that will be quite noticeable and appreciated. So, I welcome advice on where to go from here and what to do first...
The room: I have not used room correction software yet. I am liking the idea of vertical slat acoustic paneling on one, two, or all four walls. It looks really nice and seems a versatile first layer on the walls before getting serious about bass traps and other such things.
Speakers: I've had 600 series B&Ws in the past and my ears love their sound signature. I really have my eye on the 702 S3s that are out there. I wonder if I need the subs with those, or maybe the 703s with the subs? Any issues with my Mac equipment?
Streamer/DAC: I'm thinking the upgrade path here is in the $3-5K range? Or, if I do end up with the 702s am I shooting too low?
Turntable: I know there is blue sky on expenditure here, but I really want an automatic turntable, and the Dual CS 529 looks pretty good to me. Comes with the Ortofon 2M red cartridge. Is that good enough for now?
Like I said, I welcome advice on priorities, and if you think I'm missing something let me know. Thanks all!
I would dump a few dollars into my streaming set up before I dove into the turntable dilemma. If you can get that right the need for going all out on a TT set up wains possibly. Good luck in your journey hopefully you don’t suffer too much of the Dunning Kruger effect.
IMO, if I had your choices and equipment I would replace the Klipsch speakers. There are many, many more choices and would change your sound if you chose the type of speaker you want. If you like the horn sound, look at Volti Audio, maybe the Razz or Rival. But really ribbon speakers or so many otherrs might interest you. You would have to plan road trips to audition some and that could be fun. That is exactly where I would start.
Congratulations. Sounds like a great move. Over the last five years I helped a friend that realized he wanted to finally get into high end audio in advance of retiring. He is now about your age and very happy.
First. your room sounds great. It is not an issue. Over time you can treat it to get the best out of it.
I recommend your first step is to set a direction. I would take your time on this. Consider what you have now as your reference system. You want to experience the spectrum of sound types and find what you want in the long run. As we get older, we learn more about sound and I think for most of us we gravitate to a system that communicates a deeper emotional connection with music. More so than the loud and bass heavy dynamic of our youth. So, don’t put too much emphasis on what you remember.
Go to a dealer and find a few audiophiles in your area. Listen to the best they have... and you want to hear contrast with your system. There is high impact ( the muscle car of systems) like B&W / MacIntosh, highly detailed fast Magico / Boulder... there are natural musical systems like Sonus Faber speakers / Audio Research and all sorts of systems in between. You want to listen to really good ones in each category. See what you are really attracted to... careful... highly detailed / impactful systems can be fatiguing and not musical. Then later you worry about what you can afford. Maybe travel to listen. You want a direction... then you can start swapping equipment.
Just a note. I am 73 and been pursuing this for over fifty years. You can see where I landed under my user ID. I slowly gravitated to more musical / natural sounding tubed equipment and speakers. Not an uncommon destination for mature folks. To help, what kind of car do you own? If it is a corvette... then look at B&W / MacIntosh... I have a Lexus... so for me Audio Research Sonus Faber. Porche... different system... Subaru Outback... different. The sound you like is typically a reflection of your personality.
I would do a lot of reading and a lot of listening if you can before you dive in too deep. That might save you from making two or three upgrades instead of one if you can get it right the first time. I’m not sure I would go for an all in one device unless you are absolutely sure that’s going to be your endgame for quite some time. Separates give you more flexible upgrade paths. You seem to be pretty open minded about what path this takes, which is a good thing. Try to listen to various components that present different sound signatures so you can determine what really suits your taste. I wouldn’t just buy a brand or a model based on a recommendation. Try to give yourself options.
As you move forward with this, I would keep room treatments pretty high on your list as your plan comes together. That’s something I resisted for a long time and that was a mistake. Getting my room properly treated produced more improvement than most components I bought.
These days automatic turntables are as good and sometimes better than belt drive but a lot of people are stuck in their ways and don't believe it. Buy what you can afford and what you'll use. If it's too much of a pain to set up and play records, you'll probably be less likely to do so.
You are off to a good start! I used to have Heresies from the 80’s, great speaker for that period of my listening, but definitely due for an upgrade. Start with speakers, take your time and find a brand/sound you like. I would not get hooked on B&W, nothing against the brand, but there are a lot of good choices. While not the best place to audition speakers and gear, I highly recommend attending a show to hear a lot of different systems. I attended AXPONA last year for this purpose and it was very helpful.
The audio quality I have right now is the best I have ever had in my life, and I am loving it! Full stop. Work on the room. Don’t change the system.
This is absolutely right. Even if you do decide to upgrade equipment, the room is 50% of the sound. Get that right, first, and then do the other upgrades.
Just for starters: you, like me, have very low ceilings. That has to be addressed.
Imagine you're eating a meal and there's ketchup all over some of it. Someone says, "You should try a better cut of steak." You would normally reply, "Ok, but will that have ketchup all over it, too? Because I'm not buying more expensive steak unless I know I can taste and appreciate it." It's the same thing, possibly, with your current room. Learn how to analyze it and be willing to experiment until it sounds good. Then go spend on gear.
A lot can be done with speaker placement and listening chair placement to improve sound such that room treatment need not be extensive and ugly. What you should do may depend on any restrictions you have on such placement. For example, if you are forced into a placement near the side walls, treatment of those walls may take more priority. If you are going to be seated relatively close to the speakers, much of what you hear will be coming directly from your speakers and reflections off the walls, ceiling and floor become less of an issue. Consider speaker choice in conjunction with you placement requirements. For example, if the speakers must go in the corners, look for ones that work well there (e.g., Audio Note).
You should take advantage of the help the treatment product firms offer in planning your treatment. Whatever they say, start slow and do your treatment in relatively small increments so you don’t overdue things and end up with a dead room. I would start with non-treatments that are practical and decorative. Bookshelves that you might need to hold books, records, whatever, do a good job of breaking up reflections off the wall. Decorative tapestries do the same. Artificial plants (this is a basement), such as ficus trees do a good job as room treatments.
There are way too many possibilities for speaker choices so I will limit my suggestion to mentioning Volti speakers; if you like the Heresy, you will probably like the Volti offerings and they are a substantial upgrade to that sound.
Speakers typically have the most influence on what you hear, as they're the interface for the room. The room is there to stay, but acoustical treatment can have a significant impact, so is a good place to spend some research time, and experiment.
Speakers are extremely personal (and room dependent), so I won't advise on specifics, but get something you love the sound of and that works well in your room, then use an amp or amps that are up to the task of driving them. A good dealer will let you try them in your room, and some online places have good return policies. Used is often a good way to get the most for your money if the right deal comes along, but home trials are more difficult with used, however there's typically less financial loss if you resell. A good kit is another way to get superior performance per dollar spent, but resale is typically more difficult, as is in-home trial...great way to learn a lot.
Another option is to update the crossovers in your Heresies. Crite and others offer upgrades.
IMO I would try to audition the new Heresy's-- if you love the sound, you might like the upgrade to the latest version. And I have not heard the Eversolo A6, but from what I've read, you could probably do better for the same price. GL!
Wow, thank you, each of you for the thoughtful suggestions and the encouragement. This forum is pretty cool.
@audiotroy I’m just not ready to consider a change from my preamp and feel like DAC technology advancements argue for a separate DAC for easier upgrades. I definitely know the A6 is a short term piece. And I’ll definitely upgrade the power conditioner.
@gkelly you’re right that the digital sourcing should take my attention before I pivot to vinyl. I have an AudioTechnica I can use until then anyway.
@2psyopyeah, I realize the Heresy pair is shabby chic and I need an upgrade. I’ll eventually move them to another room with my Marantz 19 and Denon DR-M30HX tape deck (and BlueSound Node). I’ll definitely take some time to do some listening to speakers before making the move.
@ghdprenticeseriously, thanks for the encouragement and perspective. Great analogies too. ftr, I drive a Polestar2 and may step up to the Lucid next year. Wife drives an X5. But as you and others suggest, I need to really give my ears and spirit the time and experience of those different sound characteristics.
@kerrybh you echo ghdprentice, thanks. And yeah, I am going to take some time, and focus on the space. Appreciate learning from your experience.
@roadcykler thank you, that’s pretty much it. I have some nice vinyl, but I know I’ll listen more with an automatic. Per others’ advice, this won’t be a near term priority, but when I get a new TT, I am likely to go with that Dual CS 529, or perhaps something else if out there then.
@superblueapm and @hilde45yep, you’re right. It’s time to work on the room, get it as good as I can and then pivot back. Gotta get rid of that ketchup!
@zlonethank you for mentioning AXPONA. It’s in Schaumberg this April and I intend to go! (I live in Chicago and have a second home in the Detroit suburbs where this listening room is.)
@larryithanks. Yeah, I am doing a fair bit of reading and watching videos on treating rooms. I do have some positioning restrictions, but think I can work through them. I like the idea of "real life" treatments before "studio" treatments, so the room feels inviting. You and another mentioned Volti, so I’ll put them on the list for a listen somewhere.
@knotscottright, definitely a reinforced message here - when I do turn to speakers I need to take my time. I am looking at used equipment as much as new.
@fred60I’ll have the opportunity to listen to the Heresy IVs at Abt here in the Chicago area, as well as the B&W 7 series I mentioned. And, yeah, the A6 is definitely just a placeholder device - but it’s a fun piece, I must say!
Again, thanks to all! I will come back to this post as things progress.
A few months ago I set out on a similar quest. I even had similar equipment! Because I had 601 s3s for 20 years, I really liked the idea of a used set of 805s. It was like I had B&W blinders on. B&Ws are great, but it seems to be a truism that you might get a better speaker for your money if you throw your net wider.
One reason you might consider speakers first hasn’t been mentioned. Different speakers do better with different choices of amps and preamps. I upgraded my amp first and could have saved myself some hassle if I chose my speakers first.
I am stubborn as h€|| but once I threw off the blinders I ended up with used Vandersteen Quatros from a dealer I could trust. If you decide you are curious about Vandersteen, I have found their owner forum extremely helpful. Richard Vandersteen is also available to give advice which was a nice surprise.
The choice of Vandersteens informed my other system choices considerably, and I ended up with an Ayre amp and preamps - KX-R pre and VX-5 Twenty amp. Used Ayre equipment was reachable for my budget and Ayre, like Vandersteen, is super customer service oriented. Ayre takes in your equipment and will check everything and/or customize for a modest fee. I won’t pretend my path is for everyone, but it’s an example of how your path can change once you start considering other speakers.
I notice you are from suburban Detroit. So am I and I am going through a similar journey. Currently have a McIntosh MA 352, Innuos Zenith Mark 3 Streamer, Denafrips DAC, UTurn turntable and both Revival and old Nautilus 804 speakers. You might already know but we have several brick and mortar audio stores in the area that carry much of the equipment you are thinking about. I have no interest in any of them but I have bought gear from Sound Advantage in Rochester and David Michael Audio in Royal Oak. The Rochester store carries the full McIntosh and B&W lines. The Royal Oak store carries Luxman, Esoteric, Nagra, etc. I have gone to both to do nothing more than listen to and compare gear. They are very accommodating. There are not many places to do that these days but you have two nearby. There also is a nice audio store in Ann Arbor. Hear before you buy. Good luck.
I notice you are from suburban Detroit. So am I and I am going through a similar journey. Currently have a McIntosh MA 352, Innuos Zenith Mark 3 Streamer, Denafrips DAC, UTurn turntable and both Revival and old Nautilus 804 speakers. You might already know but we have several brick and mortar audio stores in the area that carry much of the equipment you are thinking about. I have no interest in any of them but I have bought gear from Sound Advantage in Rochester and David Michael Audio in Royal Oak. The Rochester store carries the full McIntosh and B&W lines. The Royal Oak store carries Luxman, Esoteric, Nagra, etc. I have gone to both to do nothing more than listen to and compare gear. They are very accommodating. There are not many places to do that these days but you have two nearby. There also is a nice audio store in Ann Arbor. Hear before you buy. Good luck.
Your Macintosh c47 is better than the NAD, keep it, I had the c47. I didn’t use the built in dac because my external dac cost 2x more Than the preamp but I did use the built in phono. When I got rid of my tt/albums I sold the preamp.
A better preamp would be the ps audio bhk pre, no dac, no analog, but sounds very good. You can always do better with an external dac, all dacs inside an integrated are a compromise.
Before you do anything, do you like the warmer sound of the Mac’s? If you do, keep them. If you want to downsize to an integrated at the expense of some quality, look at Hegel for a more neutral sound with a decent built in dac. I’ve owned 2 hegels in the past. Look at the h360 model or more current models.
The weakest piece is your eversolo. For the money it’s ok, but so so on sound quality
Get the Dual TT if you want to. I have a Dual 721 in the stable and it is a fine turntable, not my best but convenient and adequate for what I ask of it. There are times when the semi auto function comes in handy. The OM 2 Red can be upgraded with an OM 2 Blue stylus when the time comes. Enjoy
I upgraded my 40 year old system a year ago. I audition several streamer/dac's in my music room after replacing old JSE Infinite Slope speakers with Klipsch RP-8000F II speakers, my Aragon 4004 Mark II with Musical Fidelity M6si integrated amplifier, and adding an RLS 12S Speedwoofer. Likewise upgrades of power cables and interconnects, including XLR's. Among the streamer/dac's I auditioned were Eversolo's DMP-A6 and DMP-A8. No question about the A8, much better than the A6 and worth twice the price. And it has room correction software.
That said, I fully endorse the comments on the importance of the listening space. My space is 12' x 15' with a ceiling that slopes from 8' up to 22,' where there is an open walkway. With no room treatment, the echo with just a clap of the hands reverberatedseverely and cautioned against any music played in the room. I tried nevertheless, and the clap echo confirmed that listening to music would be intolerable.
After layering carpet over the entire wood floor and hanging carpets on three walls, the space was entirely transformed, with onlya trace of reverb. I can eliminate that trace by drawing down the honeycombed 8' shades on the 3 full-length windows/sliders on the fourth wall.
I say treat your listening space first to see what difference it can make with your current system. Or if you're keen with anticipation, you could mix variables and treat your space in concert (pun intended) with your component upgrade.
The 3 most important considerations in a quality system in my experience are, 1. Your room and listening position. 2. The source - suggest a separate streamer and DAC and 3. Your speakers and subs. I would start with your room. Once you get it setup the way you like move on to your source and finally speakers and subs. One thing at a time. Trust your ears and eyes - what sounds good and looks good to you in your listening room- and stay within your budget. It’s a great hobby. Enjoy it and enjoy the new musical journey you’re starting on and the experience over time.
My advise to OP is record every sound change of your system with a cell phone or video camera. Don't trust your ears. Your ears will trick you every times you try to remember of past sound. After change has done or in progress, listen/compare recorded new and older sounds. You'll find which sound you like better. Alex/Wavetouch audio
Given what you've got, I'd fool around with the room itself first....
Aesthetics vs. application will rear up and create a fight, but an attempt to create a workable average potentially would help with selecting the next set of drivers to live within it.
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