Where are the young audiophiles?

Back in the day, we had three choices of home entertainment - three TV channels, board games or audio. Today audio has to compete with way more sources of entertainment.

Americans spend $50 billion on video games per year. Some of that used to go to audio.

Like many have said, digital has had a major impact on Hi-Fi. Here's a real world example - My son is 31 years old. He seemingly had no interest in listening to his dad's "dinosaur" equipment. Instead he would stream music on his phone, even listening via the tinny built-in speaker. It's convenient, he can listen to anything he wants, and he can do it anywhere. 

The other day, I asked him to put on some of my Sennheiser headphones, plugged in a Schiit DAC to his phone, and he listened to some of his music. His response after about 30 minutes was "holy crap dad, I had no idea". He is musically inclined and started gushing over the "layers, tight bass, nuances, blah, blah...".

Over the next couple of days, he went into my listening room (fancy name for my finished basement) and listened to various combinations of my equipment with both vinyl and CD music. Now he's looking at buying some gear and vinyl. 

So it apparently has a much to do with education and listening than lack of appreciation. Back in the 70s, you had to listen to other music sources, today convenience and technology have removed the motivation to do so. I don't think Hi-Fi is dead by any stretch and a little time listening usually convinces even the most Twitter-oriented young person.

teo_audio1,850 posts05-12-2021 9:06amblame it on digital. I do.

Digital is awesome. Blame it on Apple.

There happy with ear buds.

@ebm They're happy not sitting in one position in one room.

It has always been a very esoteric pursuit. It takes unique interests in music, a technical bent, with an appreciation of achieving the pinnacle of what is possible. Typically someone that likes to spend time alone.
.

In the 60’s and 70’s many college students were exposed to stereos systems and pot together. Everyone liked listening to the best systems their friends had (none remotely high-end)... and an extremely small minority went on to put together a true high end system... I don’t know anyone that did, other than me. of the thousands of people I have known in business and outside of work I ran into one or two. I met many people claiming to be an audiophile only to proudly state they owned Bose... the marketing scheme worked for decades convincing people they were buying a high end system, to the horror of those of us that actually knew what good equipment could do. We have always been a very small minority... but dedicated over our lifetimes.

The assessment of the popularity has always been in aggregate. Number of attendees to shows, subscriptions, and sales of companies... and bankruptcies.

Most people are content listening to music on the AirPods or beats via their phone. Probably doesn’t help Hi-Fi is full of eccentric weirdos who believe a power conditioner makes their computer crash less or run faster or that buying some expensive black goo to spread on your interconnects makes the sound come alive.

“Much less than  1%”

Wow. To read some of the accounts from the period you’d think everyone and their brother had extensive systems. 

@ghdprentice Those most I would spend on interconnects would be in the 30-60 range per cable and I would tend to lean toward Blue Jeans Cable because it’s supporting someone making the cables in the United States. Anything above that is excess and un-necessary. I’m sure more expensive cables might be better but there’s that law of depreciating returns along with your hearing loss as you age. Everyone rationalizes after they make an expensive purchase that it sounds better but sometimes this is a placebo. Cables are that placebo. You might have an argument that analog signals degrade and are subject to interference and attenuation, but let’s not say that optical/toslink, RJ-45, and usb are the same beast because they’re not. The signals are digital and there’s a lot of snake oil about selling expensive cables from vendors saying they make digital audio sound better. Bullshit. Digital is digital, data is only flowing on 2 wires in the usb 2.0 spec and either it works or it doesn’t. (Usb does retransmit if it doesn’t get an ACK packet) Same with RJ-45, either it works or it doesn’t. Most home networks use TCP/IP and the packet retransmits if it doesn’t get there. That’s in the TCP spec. No expensive cable is going to change that when a cheaper shielded cat 5/6 cable will work just fine. If you have packet loss, the wireless signal sucks or if you have other issues with your network. (Bad cable/bad route).

@syndication.
If you have $20K invested in used equipment at age 35 you have spent more than I had at your age ($ adjusted). High end audio has always been the pursuit of a few people of the best possible musical reproduction and experience. If you are one of those... then along the way you will discover the overall sound is strongly influenced by all the components, and that interconnects and cables are a part of the system. If not, you will enjoy what you have, which is likely better than 99% of the folks out there. Hope you are enjoying it.

I’m 35 and it’s an expensive hobby. Probably out of reach for most people. I’ve spent maybe 20k in the last year on mostly second hand gear (Marantz PM-10/SA-10, Ruby-KI/SA-KI and other things). I enjoy music but I wouldn’t spend thousands on cables or buy into a lot of bs snake oil being thrown around here as fact.

No one needs to spend hundreds or thousands on a usb or network cable or speaker cable for that matter. In my opinion, you are an idiot if you believe that wrapping gold or some other shiny material makes the cable sound better but then again a sucker is born every minute. Will there be a difference? maybe, but so subtle that a cable from monoprice would get you 90% there at 1000% less the cost.

It comes down to the digital divide. Those who grew up in the internet age and those who came before. Older people who don’t understand technology are more susceptible to scams like IRS phone calls coming from India saying you owe the government money. Not surprising that a lot of these snake oil scams continue to exist in the audio world. I don’t mean to demean or attack people because of their age as young people make some pretty stupid decisions as well (pulling down statues, calling everyone who disagrees with you a racist/etc, applying today’s standards on the past).
Most people my age or younger are looking for a house or looking to buy a Tesla. If it doesn’t haven’t an app, most people aren’t interested. In a sense, we’ve forgotten how to do things the manual way because things are just too easy now. What’s 10% of $200? That question might give many people in the younger age bracket pause now so they reflexively reach for their phone to do the math.

Young people have all the convenience older people never dreamed of having (get food delivered via DoorDash. Hitch a ride through Uber, listen to music via Spotify/YouTube/Apple Music/etc, be connected anywhere). HiFi is dying because it’s out of range for most people price wise and that void of listening to music in your listening room has been replaced by huge ass TVs that can give you content anytime. It’s not surprising Klipsch is outselling everything now in the US because that’s where the market is moving. Sound bars, home theater, kick ass explosions. I’m a fan of Klipsch as (mainly their heritage line) but very few people my age or lower are snobs about audio because cheap oled and lcd TVs have taken over. No one cares about your Wilson audio or B&W speakers. People care about how big of a tv you can shove into a living room.

@athrillofhope

You are very correct. No question.. but take a deep breath... relax... enjoy the moment. Put on some Kitaro.

I think some of it boils down to time and interest.  There too many other diversions.  It does take some nurturing to appreciate music on a deeper level than on a phone and earbuds.  If I was starting out I would stream (CD quality or above) with high quality headphones.   

@kren0006.  “... but for the older gents here, at the Hi-Fi height, let’s say 1970’s, what percentage of middle class households had what we would consider a hi-end system?

10%? 20%? More?...”

Excellent  question. In the 1970’s. Much less than  1%

This has never been a popular pursuit. You would also need to take into account the population increase of at least 50% so as a percentage the people doing this may not have decreased as much as it would have. 

mapman: "I think the high end should lower prices so more young people can partake."

One phrase: Market Economics.

Hi-End ANYTHING would not exist without the Free Market Enterprise Profit Motive. No one does anything because they have compassion and love for others. No one.

Human nature is SELF-CENTRIC. This is why we need a government comprised of checks and balances to keep Totalitarians in check. And it is also why we need COMPETITION to keep Economic Totalitarians in place (i.e., Google, Microsoft, Twitter, Big Pharma, Big Oil, etc ...).

Eliminate the SELF-GAIN, eliminate the market. You can not have both.

And quite frankly, it takes untold millions to run a company like Pass Labs or D'Agostino or any of the others. They are not just covering their immediate costs. They are also coving past investment, future R&D, and yes--PROFIT. THEY get to eat and pay for their kids' college tuitions, just like you do.

We have scores and scores of options in audio below the $1,000 mark. Call THAT "The Poor Man's Hi-End", if you will. And quite frankly the Yamahas and Denons, et al ... that appear in these price ranges offer sound and features that we could only dream of, in SOME cases at least, a few decades ago. In short, our "low-fi" market in some ways rivals what was "hi-fi" decades ago.

Kinda relative.

Remember when air conditioning was exclusive to Cadillacs? I do. Now you can not buy a car--even those tin-can toasters on wheels--without A/C. (Wish car companies would figure that out about cup holders, too).

We have what we call "hi-end" because of PROFIT MOTIVE. We have advanced medicines, technology, surgical procedures for one reason alone: PROFIT MOTIVE.

It may not sound warm and fuzzy, but that's the reality. You would never get out of bed each day and schlep off the work if you did not receive your piece of cheese--a paycheck. Why expect anything else from everyone else?

This has been said for decades. In the 1970s, the adage was "Hi-End Audio is not developed yet. It will not survive".

In the 80s, it was "Hi-End is too trendy--like disco was".

Today, Hi-End is "social injustice and supremacist because it mandates a standard of excellence".

There will always be reasons to trample on it. And there will always be reasons to seek it out and procure it. In short, the market will always be there. It is simply a matter tapping into it.

I’m pretty young (well relative to the prevailing crowd here, not to the pickup basketball games I try in vain to keep up with....sigh)) but for the older gents here, at the Hi-Fi height, let’s say 1970’s, what percentage of middle class households had what we would consider a hi-end system?

10%? 20%? More?

By hi-end system I guess I mean something you’d get from a Hi-Fi store, not just a Best Buy receiver

I have 4 kids.  All of them love music ... multiple genres not just rap or pop.Only one (age 16) is an audiophile.  One is a musician (age 19) lots of her work is on Spotify.  Music to her is about creating it and listening for learning about lyrics etc so she can make more and better music.  She is happy with her JBL Bluetooth speaker and iPhone. The other two (21 and 23) find it incomprehensible that you would sit still and listen to music.  With them music follows them into the gym, in the car, parties etc.  I do find it interesting that many in Hollywood have serious audiophile systems ... most are at best middle aged.  Maybe the days of expensive high end electronics will come to a close soon.  The good news is that the world of music is alive and well

I know loads of young people into audio. Loads.

I am 72 and bought my first separates system in 1969.  It consisted of a Sansui amp, Sansui tuner, (matched 555s), Dual 1019 turntable and Sansui Sp-100 speakers.  I added an AKAI R2R.  The cost was about $800 for all of it.

I am not sure my current system pleases me any more as I went from a cheap all in one ( what I call a grind o magic ) to what was a decent system.

If I was 21 again, I suspect I would be streaming music via a Mac Mini and using a class D amp and XYZ speakers and be just as happy as I was then.   O I g up the ladder today require funds beyond most people in their early 20s.

46, here, I know... I'm a young noob, but most retail audio establishments sucked anyway circa >2000. Glad they are being replaced by a lower priced direct sales models with more integration of features in one single box.  

I'm amazed by the LS50 Wireless II w/ a KC62 Subwoofer.  I bought it from Kef directly, why? I called Magnolia, and they were out of stock and as unhelpful as to be expected. 

I ordered some Legacy Whispers based on my wanting them after hearing them from a audio show a decade ago.  They now come with the Wavelet Preamp, DAC, Digital crossover, and DSP correction as well as integrated 500wx4 amplifiers to drive the 15" woofers.

"Goodbye to the dodo bird, there's a reason you're extinct" 

Sincerely,

A Former & Cyncical Audio Consultant 😁 

I think the high end should lower prices so more young people can partake.  

It is sad especially when there are very few audio guys under the age of 60 to 65 but we are here i knot of a few in the 40 to 50 year old range but we do not have the numbers to sustain the majority of the brick and mortar stores and it is sad when they do or have to close but the trend i have been seeing over the past few years is that they are disappearing at an alarming rate.

@mapman  you got that right!

@stereo5 Good for you! You are only old if you think you are old.

The young people are the smart ones. They just listen to music as they please. No comparisons, no pressure, no grandstanding, no ridicule, no obsessing.....just listening when and how they please. Fact is it’s nothing hard to get good sound for not much these days. The times they are a changing.  Omg what the heck am I doing?????  I must be nuts. 

I am 67, been doing this since I was 15.  I still consider myself young.  

Maybe there are young audiophiles, I just don't know any.

Some High End manufacturers does targeting youngsters with their products through retail. Devialet is one of them. 
https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1618688-REG/devialet_mm168us_phantom_i_1100w_wireless.html

When I was a kid I had my parents old Monkey Wards stereo system from the 70's. I liked how it sounded but at that time I couldn't afford a walkman (not sure they were out then) so listening to music was done at home. In the mid 80's I got a walkman and I rarely listened to my stereo in my room anymore.

Its easy to look down your noise at the younger generation but music is different now. You would be this way too if, in High School/College you had 100 mullion songs you could listen to anywhere on earth.

The market is evolving away from brick and mortar, with direct to consumer, active speakers, and lifestyle type components.

The latter two is a response to the younger generation being less interested in audio as a serious hobby, but a group nonetheless with some bucks and a desire for nice sounding units. The industry is smart to see the shift, as these sales can compensate for the lower demand powered by us passionate hobbyists.

There happy with ear buds.

sufmuz said:
"I think over forty is the age when you appreciate quality things more and better SQ is one of them....you just feel that time is running and you don’t want to miss something good... so youngsters will catch up later....now they have other priorities in their mind."
 
Being 66 and looking back, I think that there is a lot of truth in what he said. I’ve been a music and audio guy for over 45 years, but I value the experience even more now because I know that time is finite.

Being a 30 year retail A/V veteran, there has been a trend away from 2 ch audio for the most part across the board for at least 15 years, 99% of my customers purchase sound bars. Why? Smart tv's can be the source of all entertainment: only 2 wires are required: power and hdmi arc & the tv remote can control the system. If they want a little more advancement, they will move up to Sonos: Still a soundbar but now they have a wireless multi-room option. Only a few dedicated enthusiasts purchase 5.1 or greater systems & 2 ch music only systems are almost non existent. The average customer perceives 2 ch stereo as waste of resources that can be spent elsewhere. The average 2 ch music customer or owner is older from an age when hanging out and listening to tunes on an affordable system was a primary form of entertainment & there was a stereo only store on every city block. So that leaves the current 2 ch crowd in 60 & above age group with the means to afford this very expensive hobby.

There may be few, but I do know a couple of early 20's audiophiles that are very much into vintage gear.  One in particular, refurbishes tube amps, idler turntables, and reel to reel tape decks.  He is a big fan of older Klipsch gear and actually has a single Klipshorn.  He also has a big vintage JBL stereo speakers and a pair of homemade Altec 604 speakers.  With the 604's, he has been trying various crossover designs, but is still not satisfied and will be experimenting with augmenting the system with a midrange compression driver and horn.  He also has refurbished two Thorens 124 tables and is waiting on a Garrard 401 that he found for a good price.  He may be young, but, he has done far more than I've done as far as hands-on activity.  Now, if only he can figure out how to refurbish the eight or so Otari MX 5050 tape machines he bought from a defunct books-on-tape company.

I have a realtor who sends me MLS listings in our area so we can track the approximate value of our home.  Over the past 3 years I have yet to see a pair of stereo speakers pictured in any room of their house.  I will see $5,000 entertainment cabinet with a wide screen TV and they are listening to the TV speakers.

Based on this, there aren't many audiophiles period.  You would think retailers would be doing some direct mail advertising to affluent areas to spark interest.  Based on this, I don't know how retailers even exist.  I would think manufactures would help them to advertise their businesses and sound systems as a new platform for entertainment.

I think over forty is the age when you appreciate quality things more and better SQ is one of them....you just feel that time is running and you don’t want to miss something good... so youngsters will catch up later....now they have other priorities in their mind. 

It is true the pandemic has catapulted the business. My audio guy has been in business for over twenty years and has never seen this level of demand. So, this will probably have created a bunch of new enthusiasts. And music never goes out of fashion... so it will not go away.

If no one mentioned it, YouTube channels Zero fidelity, Thomas, and Jay who are all under 40 (I think) and appear to have lots of younger viewers.  
Sure there is tons of very pricey gear today, but the flip side is that technology has advanced and there are lots good sounding gear way under $1000.

As others noted, I think the key factors in what the mass of young people buy is cost and convenience.  Most don’t yet have high incomes and other purchases take priority.  Also, younger Americans were raised to have short attention spans and crave new stimulation.  They aren’t prone to following anything down a rabbit hole and prefer to use what is convenient and serves the purpose.  New music is here today and gone tomorrow — I don’t think young people now will long to hear again the tunes that are currently popular . . not as oldsters today still savor Steely Dan, Alman Brothers or Linda Ronstadt.  They want things to go.

I offered a system to my son, 31yrs, & he didn't want it. B&Ws & Rotel stuff. He uses Ear buds & phone music. I don't get it. He's up & coming, runs the family business & has money.  Where have I failed!

I'm 28 years old. We are here, just not in masses. 

Very simple answer $$$$$! The “hi-fi” industry has priced it self into this situation. Can I spend 100k on a system if I want yes! Can I justify spending more than I did on my first house for music no!
 On the flip side I have bought quality self powered speakers with zen blue wi-fi for my daughters. It needs to be simple or they will not use it. They were reluctant to start but over time they have come to realize the speakers on their phone suck. It is on us who love the music and this industry to introduce it to the next generation so it does not go with the dinosaurs.

Walmart now has vinyl .Go to Best Buy and see vinyl Audio Technica and Pioneer  turntables. 23 year old  asks how all this works and they want buy it from there pay.  I see more and more ads on tv with speakers and turntables in the background and even some.  Sometimes a young person comes over and they want to know how get started.  

Imagine what we could buy if we weren't forced to pay tax on our home even when retired? $200 per week. My first system cost 2 weeks of that. Technics table, Rotel amp, KEF spreakers. 

I am under 40 years old. Here’s my setup, experiments and opinions on my DAC mod.

https://youtu.be/yE1_gxCJH88

Speaker and audio component companies are back ordered.  Looks to me like stuff is selling as people stay home.

I have two nephews in their twenties that are into vinyl so all is not lost. Their mother buys them 70's albums all the time. 

....playing on their phones

95% of young people seem to have no interest at all in SQ

@jundaku. “The biggest issue is that it’s a rich mans hobby and not to many of us young people can afford it.....”

I can assure you that when I was young in college and the years afterwards... it was a rich man’s hobby. I saw old guys go in and buy a top of the line Audio Research component costing what I made in six months. I scraped and saved and bought used equipment... lower end stuff. I read endlessly, trying to piece together my together for a next to nothing. My first non-school loan was for an amplifier. 

So, while I can’t say getting older is fun. I truly enjoy being able to listen to a $22K component and pretty casually say, “sounds great, I’ll take one... could I hear the new preamp also.” Of course, this is in my home because my audio guy brings stuff to my house for me to audition. I can’t begin to tell you after fifty years of passionate pursuit, how great it feels to be one of those old rich guys. Work hard, dream, and one day you’ll be lucky enough to say the same.

Here are some of the younger audiophiles

https://youtu.be/HqRJpq-hcRQ
https://youtu.be/C5Wo53s4AjE