Darko web site talks a lot about streamers at all price levels.
Where are the cheap home streamers?
When CD players were first introduced, they were $1000 and more new. And this was in early 80's dollars. New ones would eventually drop to under $200, and new players that also play most all formats can still be had around at that price or less. Sure, not the best quality, but they work well enough for most.
The new frontier is of course, streaming. Whether from a local host, online, and so on. Many options in the high end, but what seems odd is the lack of budget options. Probably the least expensive that's of decent quality is the Sonos Connect. Oh sure, you can pair a computer or tablet with a cheap DAC, and get by. Or roll your own with a Raspberry Pi solution. And yes, most disc players are "smart" and can stream audio and video just fine. Among other issues, is that the budget options are defaulting to HDMI out, and omitting Optical, Digital, and Analog out.
There were some early efforts by Sony and Dlink a few years ago. Both not only required a display, but were pretty terrible implementations overall. We recently tried one of the Dayton WBA 31s. For a mere $50, expectations were of course also modest. As you might imagine, analog audio out is not great. Below that of many phones we'd say. It does however had an optical output. A dealbreaker for most of our clients in terms of added complexity. If produced in sufficient number, there is no good reason such a unit with a decent DAC couldn't be built and sold for $200 or so. Or maybe someone is doing this, and it's just not well distributed?
The new frontier is of course, streaming. Whether from a local host, online, and so on. Many options in the high end, but what seems odd is the lack of budget options. Probably the least expensive that's of decent quality is the Sonos Connect. Oh sure, you can pair a computer or tablet with a cheap DAC, and get by. Or roll your own with a Raspberry Pi solution. And yes, most disc players are "smart" and can stream audio and video just fine. Among other issues, is that the budget options are defaulting to HDMI out, and omitting Optical, Digital, and Analog out.
There were some early efforts by Sony and Dlink a few years ago. Both not only required a display, but were pretty terrible implementations overall. We recently tried one of the Dayton WBA 31s. For a mere $50, expectations were of course also modest. As you might imagine, analog audio out is not great. Below that of many phones we'd say. It does however had an optical output. A dealbreaker for most of our clients in terms of added complexity. If produced in sufficient number, there is no good reason such a unit with a decent DAC couldn't be built and sold for $200 or so. Or maybe someone is doing this, and it's just not well distributed?
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I have the best, least expensive ($40) streaming gizmo, the Chromecast audio puck. It's plugged into my preamp/DAC with an optical Toslink cable. I stream Tidal straight from the phone using the app. Sadly, Google discontinued it and they are hard to find. You have to spend a LOT more for comparable quality. The next step up might the the Bluesound Node 2i. I'm getting ready to spend a lot more, probably a Wyred4Sound streamer or Innuos, which are both Roon Cores and endpoints. I hope the improvement in SQ will be substantial. |
Jeff Dorgay over at Tone recently touted this puppy ... the Andover Audio Songbird Hi-Res Music Streamer which is a streamer with its own DAC which goes for $129. https://www.tonepublications.com/review/andover-audio-songbird-hi-res-music-streamer/ https://www.andoveraudio.com/products/songbird-hi-res-internet-audio-streaming-device |
The Chromecast audio was a great item. Quite a few of our customers use them. Many of which are delighted when the find out their vintage system can now stream audio. It is such a shame that Google pulled the plug on this. Amazon makes a similar device, and it's very good, but unless you are in the Amazon Music universe, it's useless. I've heard lots of good things about the Node 2i. And in the great scheme, $450 isn't enormous. I just think there needs to be something between the two. |
I agree with @unsound that the Allo DigiOne with a Raspberry Pi (prebuilt if you want) is a great solution. I have one, and I’m not positive I could tell it from the more expensive streamers I’ve used (Auralic Aries G1, Bricasti M5) in a blind test. It’s this thing, for $215. I’d add an iFi iPower supply to it ($50). That and an SPDIF cable, and you’re done. They also sell a "Signature" version of you want more audiophile cred. |
I’ve got a cheap solution which sounds great. On my system it does. Android with UAPP(and Bit Perfect add-on for TIDAL MQA), OTG cable, Nobsound USB to SPDIF converter( USB To SPDIF Converter XMOS XU208 Coaxial Source Output, Digital 75 ohm Coax cable to my processor. I don’t care about TIDAL MQA but my discovery tonight is selecting Mono on my processor. Everything sounds so much better... Does a streamer with it’s FLAC ability sound better? Could be. But you asked for cheap and that’s my retort. |
Bluesound Node2i is a little north of $500. Not cheap. But not expensive. Remarkable sound for price. It is source for my system, which terminates in Vandersteen Quatro Wood CTs. Happy with sound so far. Have yet to hear it bettered in shootout at dealer against DACs costing 2-4K. Part of that may be that in configuration that I use it signal is handled by Parasound JC2 before being passed onto to amp. I can hear effects of different power cords, Ethernet cables, and speaker cable elevators. So not deaf. |
I'm thinking that software development, API's, etc play into the price of streamers. Common phone apps, small and relatively simple, are downloaded to millions of phones and through advertising, generate money to cover development costs. When a company builds a streamer, hoping to sell 10,000 or 50,000 with no advertising income, the more complex development costs are spread over fewer devices. The streamer must be compatible with lots of providers and different protocols. Plus, they often have to create an iOS and Android app to accompany the streamer. The node 2i can stream directly or in some cases, through the mobile app. It supports Spotify connect, roon, bluetooth, Google cast, etc. All that interoperability costs money to create and often involves paying a fee to those services or protocols. The Node 2i does all that very well. When you pay less for a streamer, you may lose quality, interoperability, a user friendly interface, or all of the above. When shopping for a lower price streamer, do a lot of research, read reviews, etc... make sure it does what you need it to do, and has a UI (user interface) that doesn't drive you crazy. Yes, I have a Node 2i and like it a lot. I'm using it with an external DAC (not high end at all) and it sounds slightly better than it's internal DAC did. The internal DAC wasn't bad at all...but would be out of place on many of the higher end systems owned by subscribers to this forum. The only thing missing, in my opinion is a BlueSound receiver that could be plugged into aux inputs on systems in other rooms for nice, whole house sound. The BlueSound Pulse speakers have streamers built in, can serve as endpoints for well synchronized sound originating from the Node 2i and they aren't bad as wireless, remote speakers go...but the don't come close to most, spare stereo systems most of us have. I bought one Pulse, the big one. Its wasn't cheap and the sound was a little disappointing...so it remains in the kitchen, where nothing resembling critical listening will occur. |
@austinstereo-- As for the Allo, and the Pi, and any other DIY stuff, they are great options for hobbyists. And the results are beyond what you’d expect for the money. In this case, we’re looking for ready to run. Many of our customers just want a simple solution.Oh, I missed that you are a dealer. The Allo can be bought pre-assembled and is pretty easy to set up and use, yet still, it doesn’t have the polish of more commercial products. I’m going to look at the Songbird myself. People ask me for recommendations, and like you, I’d like to have something inexpensive, reasonable quality, and not tweaky. |
I have the Arylic S50 Pro. it is 200.00 from Amazon. It is ok as long as all you are doing is streaming. In their own materials they state that they are focused on the streaming and the support of digital files is secondary. As to streaming I have clung onto AmazonHD which is a very good product and there is a discount as i am already an amazon prime customer. For AmazonHD, there are some features that you can't use while streaming (adding music to your library or playlists for example). I think I want a 200 product to work like a 1,000 or more product. Another thing that annoys me is that the best it will ever play is cd quality regardless of the source. |
I'm really not into the whole streamer/DAC concept per se. What I fear most is not that DAC's will improve (they won't) but that streaming services come and go and the need to keep up with them. It's more of a software and interface thing than hardware. For this reason I went with Roon as my streaming ecosystem, and like you mentioned, I'm runmning a Pi/Ubuntu streamer talking USB to my DAC, but I could also get a Mytek Manhattan II with a network card. No built in streaming, but Roon aware. |
What part of "You get what you pay for" is beyond the OP's grasp? Cheap CD players are/were exactly that. With streamers the price goes up for "plug and play" because you are paying for someone to hold your hand. If you don't want to spend any time or effort spend lotso $$$$. And like it. Or speed up the process and market a package for us. The Xiaomi Mi box does Roon nicely for ~$70. Too bad you need a screen too. And to spend a lot more than that every year for gapless playback. |
I think I must not understand what people mean by streamers since I would have thought a high quality bluetooth receiver like this one meets almost all of the needs for wirelessly transmitting music to a system: http://szaudiotech.com/product/blt-hd-bluetooth-adaptor/ The quality of the Bludento using the COAX output to a DAC is very high, I would say about 90-95% of what a USB connection gives you. And of course, subscribing to Roon and using a Raspberry Pi running Ropieee or one of the other OS's is a great way to feed music to a DAC. |
To get back to the original question, why are there not a plethora of cheap streaming devices such as the Google Chromecast, my first query would be why did Google stop supporting Chromecast? I Googled this recently—no pun intended—and didn’t find an answer. I wonder if most people just use a computer in place of a dedicated audio device? Everybody owns at least one, they can do everything that a streamer does, and most people aren’t audiophiles and find them sonically acceptable. Audiophiles that wish to have a higher quality product are generally willing to pay a premium for the privilege, and thus the sub $500 market would be stressed out. Another factor is that many lower end products, such as inexpensive AVRs, attempt to add streaming, Bluetooth, and whatever else is desired, sacrificing quality in the process but most people simply won’t care |
I'm still not understanding the obsession with streamers...again, your basic laptop, ipad, android device, ipod....etc etc can all be used as a streaming device. You are not going to be using any of their internal dacs, but connecting them all to a high quality dac. So other than aesthetics, I still don't see any point in spending significant cash on a streamer. Again, I mostly play vinyl records for serious listening....streaming just occasionally for the fun of it and to search for new music...that's it. |
@pinwa While this looks like a good Bluetooth receiver, it's not the same as a dedicated streaming receiver. You can of course use it to playback a stream on your system, but a phone, computer, tablet, or other device is needed as a source. And while Bluetooth continues to improve, it is still a compromise over a directly connected Wifi/Ethernet receiver. And yes, while streaming receivers are often controlled by phones and tablets, the streaming takes place locally on the device. Many of the higher end streamers can be operation without a phone at all. |
@slackjef The Arylic is also a new one to us. It actually looks like an excellent candidate. Being able to use it as a dedicate preamp with two line inputs is a nice plus. You mentioned about being limited to CD quality, but the specs claim it supports 24/192. Perhaps only to be transcoded to 16 bit? Even if this is so, it still looks like a strong contender, and the price is right. Will definitely give this one a try. Thanks! |
I used a Logitech Touch for several years, upgrading the streaming capability, first with wired ethernet instead of wireless (would never go back) and next with Touch software mods making it - in theory - able to playback PCM 24 - 196. It was not able to stream DSD "native" (only, converted to PCM), and since this was important for me (with a lot of DSD vinyl rips on my hard disks), I decided to upgrade. I went for a one-box solution, the Teac NT-505. It is not exactly cheap, but it does the job, in my case. No problems connecting to the home network, playing DSD or other hi-res files from my hard disks, or streaming from Tidal. The sound quality is clearly a big step up from the Touch, and also, from my former solution, with the Touch as streamer, using the Tascam DA-3000 as DAC. It remains to be seen, how much the AK DAC chips in the Teac outperform the Burr-Brown in the Tascam, there is a bit of "polite" sound, but it is still playing in. Although this solution costs more, it takes all customers, so to speak, all file formats, and you dont need cables and better power cords for two or more boxes. I have no idea, what happens if Tidal shuts down, or Qobuz, or Spotify, or if MQA is still supported - from Teac, but for now, this solution works trouble-free and offers very good sound in our living room. It uses a combination of the Minimserver app (which is free, so far, on the web) on the server, and player control software on the remote (mobile phone, etc). I use the Lumin app, which is quite good, and adds to the convenience. |
I sniffed around and found a used Bryston BDP pi for <$600. Manic Moose (MM) a bit spartan but it can also be a Roon Endpoint switching between MPD and Roon is a snap and the thing sounds really good (better than my Wyred 4 Sound moded Sonos). Gets regular updates from Bryston and has an dedicated active user community. Negative is MM only supports Tidal and Qobuz and yah need external DAC. |
I’ve been streaming for over 10 years now and find almost any good quality streamer will do a good job with cd resolution streaming. The DAC used will make the most difference by far. I still use Squeezebox Touch mostly with LM server add ons to external DACs. Sometimes I use iPhone or IPad or even windows PC to same external DAC. The Touch is such a nice device! I have two. Also a Squeezebox Radio I use as an alarm clock in the bedroom. If one goes up sometime I will be more likely to replace it with a new dedicated streamer. Don’t know which I would choose yet. |
Interesting that “cheap” is what is being discussed here. Not a word I’d associate with the vast majority of products sold on Audiogon. IMHO the Bluesound Node 2i for about $500 can’t be beat. Streaming, Airplay, Bluetooth, Alexa integration, etc. I just sold mine and bought a Cambridge CXN V2. Excellent features. Wolfson dac chips, upsampling, preamp and app. $1000. Fantastic sound reproduction. |
Interesting that “cheap” is what is being discussed here. Not a word I’d associate with the vast majority of products sold on Audiogon. IMHO the Bluesound Node 2i for about $500 can’t be beat. Streaming, Airplay, Bluetooth, Alexa integration, etc. I just sold mine and bought a Cambridge CXN V2. Excellent features. Wolfson dac chips, upsampling, preamp and app. $1000. Fantastic sound reproduction. |
@dougthebiker Now this is something I'd personally consider. Definitely like the balanced outputs. While I personally am experienced with the Pi's. It'll never fly with our average customer, who usually spends around $1000 for the entire system, and would be intimidated by such a thing. Your's and all of the suggestions here are very much appreciated. Pending actually checking one out personally, it looks like the Arylic may be the closest to what we are looking for. |
Pro-ject Streambox S2 is around £250 in the UK. It does what you ask though no DAC included. https://www.project-audio.com/en/product/stream-box-s2/ The S2 Streambox ultra is more expensive and more popular with audiophiles. The cheaper basic version linked to above gets overlooked, maybe as it is not roon ready. |
Hi everyone Been reading thru this thread. When I look at tech. It all about the workflow ... it could be the best tech but if you can’t intergrade into a users workflow ... it’s not best tech. so going back to a cheap streamer ... like a pic based platform that is not plug and play etc ... it’s a great solution for some tech savvy diy , but would would in others users “workflows ...” as mapman pointed out any laptop w a usb to a dac would give you a good streamer , but it comes back to how you want to use it in your environment aka the “ workflow “ I have a used Logitech squeezeboxes , sad they dropped support and some services dropped supporting them .. like Spotify ... they are still very usable and you can tweek it and upgrade them and use them for local file server streaming . It’s a solution that is very user dependent ( tech savvy needed). I was asked to help a friend set up for an audio show years ago ..... and asked how they demo ... they sold speakers .. so to play music .... FYI. I used to be a regional sales manager ( I was a sys engineer previously aka tech guy ) in the area of hi tech pre press technology. Basically merging an all analog process with the on coming hi tech stuff in a tradition enviromoments... so making stuff new stuff be able to seemingly integrate into shops current workflow was paramount. ( it keeps going on in my head ). I “ looked at “ and not listen to different streamers FIRST.... It’s about how a user would use it ... if they could not use it .... so after the dust settled..... Node2 seems to be interesting to me . The Node2 has the ability to concatenate digital sources ( local servers, many streaming services , local USB port , Bluetooth ( if you want) ) into a single user interface ... approx retail price like 550 usd The software is included as part of the hardware . I went ahead a got one staged it with the system we were going to use at the show . I let the owners listen and make the call on the SQ . They were happy with what I assembled ... and we used that solution up nyc audio 2019 show .... last physical show we did. At home I my wife uses my main system w the node 2. For her the Node2 is bulletproof ( key feature want other then yourself to use the system ). We have file server with gigs of stuff but she prefers to use Amazon music HD . But the Node2 gave me crazy errors on wed . I was home early and check everything tried different wifi , hardwirenet ,local files , server files , other streaming services like Spotify and Tune-in .... everything else worked fine . I sent a email request to bluesound right from the ios ap . They replied a few hours later saying it was a Amazon web server authentication issue on Amazon side ... and Amazon took care of it . Guess I am trying to say the best cheap streamer depends on the workflow and the environment you want to use it in and the BIGGEST part of your environment is the USER who will be interacting with it . FYI mapman we met at the DC Audiofest via John S. At his booth . Happy holidays and be safe ! bill |
What about this? iFi Zen Blue HiFi Bluetooth Receiver https://ifi-audio.com/products/zen-blue/ |
@musicsearch I may have missed something, but the Zen Blue appears to be just a Bluetooth adapter. Sounds like a very good one though, with BT 5 and Aptx. We are specifically for devices that can stream natively. A phone or tablet is used to control them, but is not the source of the stream. Virtually all devices that do this also act as bluetooth receivers. An understandably confusing thing. |
Bits are bits, and the cheapest way I found to get them to my DAC is via USB from a RPI4 loaded with a Moode image. I use mconnect app on an iPad connected to Qobuz as my UI. I can stream 24 bit 192 kHz. The sound quality is as good as any streamer because bits are bits The streamer is about the size of a deck of cards. It is very easy to setup if you are comfortable with computers. The total cost is $50. If you don’t like it or can’t put it together, you are only out $50. Good luck in your quest. |
I have been using a Nord Acoustics Easy Stream DAC Connect ES9038 streamer for months now. Pretty happy with it. This streamer uses the 4Stream app from your phone for connectivity. More streaming services than I knew existed. Including Qobuz. I believe these do have BT but I connect via ethernet. No problems streaming 24/192. Being equipped to use either the internal ES9038 DAC with RCA out, ethernet or SPDIF out for external DAC it has options. I believe I paid $310 delivered. |
This is not a rhetorical question.. I really want to know. If you think your streamer should sound better than a CD, where do you think the Streamer got its music. Most of what we listen to is from old CD's and LP's, which are the source for the streaming companies. Are we seriously supposed to believe that current recording techniques and equipment have some magical property that is recorded, mixed for CD, etc, and then digitally compressed and then transmitted via poine wires, optical, or through cell towers should sound better? |
