When and how did you, if at all, realize vinyl is better?

My take on the issue is that the big distinction between analogue and digital lies with or revolves around the cartridge. Cartridges sound almost as different to each other as speakers do.  In addition, based upon how you set up the cartridge, you can further fine tune the sound.

As such, I would suggest that analogue provides two very real benefits over the more homogenous digital sound:

1.  It allows the audiophile to compensate or complement their gear and room to optimize the sound, and

2. It allows them to tailor it to their listening preferences.

In either case, it is quite possible that experienced listeners will prefer analogue.  Others, with different listening priorities or complementing equipment or rooms will prefer digital. 

I will also say that my patience and curiosity to continue to experiment with digital has waned.  I have not tried many DACs.  I stopped after trying a Creek Sequel and a NAD Master Series M51 DAC--Sterreophile Class A product.

I'm open to the idea that I could keep trying DACs and I may eventually match the sound of vinyl.  But I question whether that can be done, whether it will be a long process, and whether I will enjoy doing it.  I coupled the Manley Chinook with a nice used Dynavector and got the holography, realism, and fatigue-free listening I wanted.  I'd rather buy more records and experiment with cartridges than be buying DACs left and right. 

If you live in Chicagoland and want to bring your killer DAC over and A/B vinyl versus digital over some drinks, let me know!  I'd enjoy it.

I may take you up on that!  

Digital takes a long time to get really right.  I don't agree that the sound is homogenous.  I did not find it reliably good until I built a custom computer with low power and no moving parts, and a dedicated audio-grade SoTA USB card (with separate power supply), added a Wyred4Sound DAC2 and got the ASIO drivers working correctly and made a number of other important software tweaks, and then sought out the best digital release for each title - sometimes that is HDTracks, sometimes that is CD, and sometimes something else.  There are many nuances, like using Exact Audio Copy, to get right in order to max the sound quality.  

I know getting analog right is also a process, but the point is, you cannot compare the two unless you have spent equivalent effort (and had equivalent success) optimizing each.  

A good recording on vinyl, played on a decent table, does produce a bigger sound stage and is just more enjoyable to listen to then a CD less the occasional pops.

I always thought vinyl was better and only reluctantly got into CDs because
a) I bought a CD player as a gift for a friend only to find he's just gotten himself one, and
b) they just took LPs off the shelves and forced us to buy CDs. Which I REALLY resented.
About a year ago I took a flier on a cheap used Oppo to see what SACDs were about. Now I have to say that I have some SACDs and DVD-As that sound better than vinyl and some that don't. I have one Blu Ray audio disc that sounds amazing, even compared to it's DVD-A version.
Not into HR downloads yet.

• Vinyl is more engaging.
• I realized it after I bought my first CD player in 1987--it sat idle for the next 10 years.
• Digital is fine while I’m puttering around the house or traveling, but for serious listening it’s always vinyl.
• This has nothing to do with "better" or "best," it's an aesthetic choice. 

It all depends on the recording for me. Each format has its advantages and can surpass the other with a better recording. For a long time digital didn't come close to me, but improvements in the last few years make it much more listenable. I can get great joy from either format. Cheers,
Spencer

It is amazing how none of the responders have their systems posted here at a-gon. I feel like Steve of South Park who gravitates to the site in order to learn something but then goes away empty-handed. 
It takes one iPhone and 5min to update your profile, I know this because I did that! 
reading these comments that vinyl beats or gets beaten by digital is like shopping for new music on Amazon: a few posts say that I MUST get the latest from Marillion or Beyonce but "who is talking?!" This gets me to my next question: do you prefer vinyl while listening to AC/DC, Manovar, Tool, Beatles, Jane Monheit, Zappa?  
My point is: with Imagine Dragons I just do not care because CD is more convenient to play: albums are so overcompressed that I almost hate the music. Ion USB TT will never make me dump my CD player and spend extra on LPs. on the other hand, listening to Kind of Blue thru my Keel-ed/Naim-ed Sondek is an experience I do not get from HiRez or SACD. Once I get dCS stack I will learn more, but for now LPs beat my digital front-end...

Sevs- that's strange. I've had a virtual system posted here since 2006 or 7. But I didn't take a hard line on one format beats another for all purposes. 

An interesting development. I posted earlier in this thread and said that I generally prefer my analog outfit over my CD player, unless I was playing something hard and heavy. But! I just bought a new amp, I replaced my Forte' model 3 with a Krell FPB-300, a major jump I know. But suddenly the tide has shifted! Now my CD player, (Cary 306) has edged out my VPI Scout/Sumiko table. An unexpected consequence.  It proved to me that the differences between analog and digital aren't solely at the front end. Synergy of the system is what makes one better than the other. 

Sevs, Elmasonic record cleaner, 6 Quads, Koetsu, Linn for digital. Everything else DIY. Classical.

Correction: tonearm is not DIY, it is Trans-Fi air bearing. Also, I say analogue, no contest.

@gregkohanmim,

I spent ~35 years in software engineering and can hear the "code" in digital music reproduction and was always of the opinion that code was obsolete as soon as it shipped and should always be improved on.

This is a completely new one. Never heard that before. Can you please explain how one can hear "code" in digital music reproduction?

It proved to me that the differences between analog and digital aren't solely at the front end. Synergy of the system is what makes one better
than the other.

Precisely!

Correction: Stan, not Steve, I am getting old!! @whart I did not check All the responders, only hardliners and those who find digital more pleasing to their ears. If Rega P1 beats Linn Akurate is one thing, if Esoteric beats VPI is totally different story. Overcompressed crap sold as "progressive" nowadays (sorry, Steven Wilson is just a lucky exception) sounds crappy no matter what. Van Der Graaf Generator "Live" from the olden times sounds as horrible thru LP as CD. Symphonic Dances on RR sounds totally Awesome on HDCD, but makes me jump when I am not too lazy to warm up my Armageddon.. All things being equal, vinyl always wins to my ears, but the convenience of Hi-Rez or CDs rule! 

Hello, I own 3 turntables that are setup in my system now along with 3 fantastic phonostages. I have one excellent digital source. Even though digital is extremely good, vinyl does edge it out when it comes to which sounds more LIFELIKE and REAL. I could be very happy with only listening to digital for the rest of my life  but when vinyl is setup correctly, it is superior. But vinyl is also more of a pain in the ass setting it up and changing records. 

1973-1987 - bought tapes and vinyl.  Made many mixed tapes on Maxell chrome dioxide tapes.
1987 - impulse bought Cure double cd and had no CD player.  Sounded better than my cheap turntable.  Was cheaper and portable in car.
1987- 2015 bought thousands of CDs.  Climaxed as music rip marathon, dac dabbling, software purchases thought it was better than cd.
2015 - impulse bought Beatles reissues on sale and had no turntable.
2015 - bought used rig with used cart and new wall shelf and jaw still hits the ground.  Have relaxed about one off imperfections in vinyl reproduction since live concerts are as imperfect as they are great.  I would exchange my 5000 cds in the basement for 500 records.  Off the digital upgrade fever train, so can back fill my records now.  All good.

Eggs ackley! Digital by and large is an analytical medium, it begs to be examined and analyzed like a monkey examines a skull. Whereas analog is not analytical. It just is. Tape and vinyl are natural mediums. They breathe.

Milpai - Sorry for the late reply to:

This is a completely new one. Never heard that before. Can you please explain how one can hear "code" in digital music reproduction?

It's really pretty simple for me - Once you've been through hundreds of software development cycles you pick up on common themes which include reduction in features, reduction in feature quality, bugs and issues put on the backlog and planned for future release, reduction in fidelity or usability.  

We all experience these realities every day in everything from mobile apps, automatic updates, firmware revisions, etc. etc.

In the case of the digital domain as it applies to music, all of these factors also take their toll.  Case in point - why is there a new file standard or DAC chip every five minutes?

In software there's an understanding that whatever gets delivered is already obsolete the second it is released and should therefor be considered as largely disposable.

In my personal case, I can hear all of these "shortcuts" as digital artifacts like graininess, compression, glare, artificial emphasis, limited dynamics, software imposed curves, smoothing, etc. etc.

Wish I didn't notice them since like most others that prefer analogue, I'm still a slave to my digital library that's massive in comparison to my vinyl.

Greg

Have both a real nice Analog setup and Digital setup - judging from mileage alone - analog clearly is preferable to me.  Im probably 95% analog 5% digital usage on my system which is used daily.


Good Listening


Peter 

sevs,

I admit it; I am a digital dummy. I would like to post my system and pictures. Don't know how.

 I am a vinyl guy. 3000 LPs; 83 CDs

If you would post a quick method; I would appreciate it.

Thanks in advance.
nkonor

Purchased a 30th anniversary LP of Dark Side of the Moon on a half speed mastered, 180 gram, special formulated virgin vinyl.  Already had the same album on CD.  Played both synchronized together and switched back & forth between them.  There was no doubt the vinyl was superior.  It won hands down on overall sound quality.  From that point forward I replaced all my old records with 180 & 200 gram virgin vinyl recordings, many are 1/2 speed mastered, which I believe have superior sound quality.

Simple comparisons may not tell the whole story. Unless CDs are treated and the CD player is isolated from seismic vibrations (among other things) analog usually has an advantage IMHO. Tweaking and modding can make the comparisons more competitive. And if you’re a clever fellow you might even make the CD win. There are simply way too many variables to make a definitive case for either format.

no doubt the vinyl was superior...  to what year CD???

I love the sound of records through my TT (Goldmund); and only began getting real pleasure
from CD's/digital "after" I used an Equitech "balanced" isolation transformer to separate/isolate power to analog and digital sources. Friends think it's 'overkill' - until they listen, and relax. It has certainly been "transform-ative" to my enjoyment of digital. I have found using top level MIT Oracle interconnects contributes enormously to my enjoyment of digital as well. (I also agree w geoffkait about providing a stable base for the digital player)

I also appreciate the significant contribution of the ULTRABIT PLATINUM cleaner and treatment for CD's (as do countless others)
Kudos to 
George S. Louis, Esq, CEO, Digital Systems & Solutions
www.audiogeorge.com

yes, GregKohanmin nailed it .

@ptss so true!! I had to return Linn Akurate player because its digital power supply totally f$&@-ed up the rest of my system!  

I got into the lp culture when i was 15 by winning a raffle that gave me 7 lps of my choice. My collection ballooned from there. At university i went to a hifi show and bought my first turntable, amp and speakers. When my engineering friends introduced me to cd i thought it was emperor's new clothes syndrome. CD sounded awful next to my humble set up that was more detailed and had  an obvious vibrant dynamic range advantage compared to the silver discs. I am lucky or perhaps stubborn that i never wavered. Believing my ears even when i was a hifi leper. I often now have friends i went to varsity with with and their silver discs and hi res downloads over for dinner. No comparison and regularly suprise them with a 30 year old lp that is sublime. 

I realised it 53 years ago, later reconfirmed my opinion 37 years ago when CD's and players entered the market in force. I fortunately never "dumped" my record collection for the new format. My 25,000+ collection of LP's is  still growing - perhaps foolishly as I doubt I have enough years left in me to enjoy each and every LP one last time.

I admit I was spoiled when growing up as my parents (modest means) owned a Lenco and I had access to that TT plus a Fisher 500B along with Altecs. During the 60's that'd be considered a great system for an average household. It definitely trained my ear to good reproduction and CD's weren't it. Being a realist however, I do own and have CD's and player but, they are rarely used.

Vinyl snobs should have a bit more sensitivity towards their compatriots who live in the digital world. My hat goes off to those who continue to improve their digital playback. I would do the same given the time and funds. I guess it comes down to what fork in the road you took at least for those who don't pursue both. 
The one person that I have come into contact with who now lives in the digital audio world and has experience that surpasses by many orders of magnitude my own, makes a pretty good case for the consistency of digital vs the setup problems inherent in vinyl, not to mention other problems inherent in getting that great vinyl experience. 
The somewhat predominant view that vinyl reaches higher skewed me towards this medium when it was time to put together a system. It would cost a pretty penny to mach my vinyl system, not to mention the time involved. To those who have gone in both directions simultaneously and found digital to suit your ears, have at it. My intuition tells me that at some time digital has to surpass vinyl. However, as long as my trip down my stairs leads me to the level of enjoyment I have now it's best for me to drop the needle.

So,
Two dinosaurs are talking over a leisurely meal. One dinosaur says to the other,,,
"So what have you been listening to lately?"
"I just got a Miles Davis Record, and I've been playing it nonstop."
"So, you're still playing those crummy, old records? When are you going get rid of all those clicks & pops and get yourself a nice CD player?"
"I'll get rid of my records when I want to abandon my 'live' sound for your sterile, antiseptic hogwash."
Meanwhile, as the conversation grew more & more heated, a pair of cave men were watching from a safe distance. After a few minutes one caveman spoke.
"Hey Harry."
"Yeah, what?"
"You"re one of those,,,,, ah,,, ah astrologers,,,, no, no, I think it's astronomers, right? A guy who watches all the stars & stuff up in the sky?"
"Yeah. Why do you ask?"
"Well, what do you call that gigantic flaming ball headed straight for us?"
" I don't know what others call it. I call Digital Streaming."

Here's to all of us dinosaurs out there.

If you want to keep your habit alive, you’d better keep on buying those CDs and records.



2016, the Worst Year for Album Sales Since the Last One
Streaming is eating other formats for lunch.
Anna Gaca // July 6, 2016

There’s been plenty of notable records released this year, but seemingly no amount of great music can fix the industry’s declining album sales. Billboard and Nielsen Music (formerly Nielsen SoundScan) released some midyear 2016 sales data today, and so far, 2016 is the worst year for overall album sales since Nielsen started keeping track in 1991. Consumers bought 100.3 million album units — a number that accounts for digital downloads, CDs, and vinyl — in the first half of 2016, down 13.6 percent compared to the same time period in 2015.

Over the same six months, listeners streamed 208.9 billion songs (or 139.2 million album units, according to RIAA and Billboard rules), a 58.7 percent increase. Hidden in that number is a boom in music-only streaming: 113.6 billion audio streams, compared to 58.6 billion in 2015. Video streaming like YouTube and Vevo saw more modest growth: 95.3 billion streams, compared to 2015’s 76.6 billion.


U.S. Record Industry Sees Album Sales Sink to Historic Lows (Again) -- But People Are Listening More Than Ever
7/6/2016 by Ed Christman

It's the worst year (so far) for music sales since the 1991 debut of SoundScan (now Nielsen Music). Album sales, including track-equivalent albums (TEA, whereby 10 track sales equal one album unit) are down 16.9 percent in the first half of this year. But sales figures no longer tell the whole story of the record business.
First, let's bottom-line those disappearing sales. Album units overall fell 13.6 percent, with 100.3 million total sales. The compact disc continued to crumble, losing 11.6 percent and moving 50 million. Digital album sales fell to 43.8 million, from 53.7 million in the first half of last year. Vinyl sales continued to move up and to the right, growing 11.4 percent, to 6.2 million. New album releases have been most affected by the continued contraction, falling 20.2 percent overall, to 44.1 million units. Catalog albums fell "just" 7.7 percent, to 56.2 million.
Track sales also dropped, to 404.3 million units from 531.6 million units. Current track sales are leading the descent; songs released in the last 18 months saw sales fall nearly 40 percent. Catalog, again, saw a much smaller dip, down 6.4 percent to 236.6 million units.
Listeners streamed 208.9 billion songs (which translates to 139.2 million album units) between January and now (July 6), an increase of 58.7 percent. Of that 208.9 billion, 113.6 billion were audio-only, versus 95.3 billion video streams (defined as a music video view on YouTube, Vevo, Tidal and Apple Music -- of which the latter two contribute a very small piece). It's the first time audio has surpassed lower-paying video streams.
What's that all mean?
The most common place for people to purchase albums and songs was, unsurprisingly, at digital retailers, which captured 43.7 percent of the album market (and which, obviously, saw overall sales decline by 18.4 percent, to 43.8 million album units). Surprisingly, "non-traditional" CD retailers, like Amazon and supermarkets, saw an 8.3 percent growth in sales.
Executives that Billboard spoke to at the end of 2015 pointed, in no shock, to streaming as the main culprit in the sales cull, particularly song sales ---and streaming is booming.

I realized vinyl was better for completely non sound quality issues: when I got into electronic music back in the late 90s, much of what I was into was only released on vinyl, usually 12" or 7" singles or a limited vinyl release on an obscure label. Vinyl was better for me back then because there was no alternative... After that, I think it has just been momentum.

It's CD that's dead. Vinyl sales are up each year for the last ten years mostly. True, that is from a tiny number, but numbers are good enough that entrants are making more and more tables. B&M retailers that never had vinyl are adding it, and installed base of those with tables is growing every year. Even if/when the fad with hipster posers who don't listen much dies, LPs will continue on for another generation. 
CDs on the other hand will be totally gone in 5 years. Streaming and digital downloads will just kill it. There will be nothing to miss. Cheers,
Spencer

I think you're missing my point.  Once CDs disappear there will be no new records either.   Marketing simply will cut them both off.  Not enough profit margin left in manufacturing physical product when most all of the world is digital.  Right now, physical albums (CDs & records) only amount to a combined total of a little over 25% of the total market.
So, my point is instead of trying to downgrade each other's mode of listening ("Your records suck."  "No, your CDs suck.") we dinosaurs ought to be somewhat encouraging of each other's preferences.
Unfortunately, My guess is in five to ten years both CDs and vinyl, along with albums in general, will have almost completely disappeared.  

@toolbox149 to paraphrase our beloved President: convenience, convenience, convenience!  In early 90-ies I remember asking my friends why would they buy cassettes if for the same $$ they could get CD or LP and make a better cassette copy at home. They all had cassette decks. The answer was the same as today: convenience. As is today, not many of them listened to music other than "background"   This, and constant search for New music gets us all these sad numbers. 

I have a friend that streams all her music. After hearing the same music on LP at my house, she tells me that she really regrets having sold her LPs and turntable...

2016 was the first year that LP sales outsold streaming in the UK...
from the Guardian UK:
https://www.theguardian.com/music/2016/dec/06/tables-turned-as-vinyl-records-outsell-digital-in-uk-f...

I don’t see why the death of the CD would kill vinyl. They’re definitely serving different non audiophile customer bases and it’s the inconvenience of vinyl that makes it legit. CDs are more convenient but now files are even more so. That’s the problem for CDs. 

I believe we're entering a world where it all will exist at the same time - LP's, CD's, SACD's etc. I've been a die-hard vinyl enthusiast for 50+ years but, I do believe CD's are not dead. Rather they'll continue to carry on albeit in diminished numbers. There may even be a renaissance in it's future.

Yes Ralph, but she did sell her turntable and vinyl. Is she planning on buying an even better table and more vinyl?

It sounds like she's considering it!

I agree that a lot of cheap turntables (and poorly designed phono preamps) did the LP a major disservice during the 1980s. As a result there are a lot of people that think that tick and pops as well as distortion are the norm!

After hours and hours of listening I find that it is much more expensive to make a vinyl system sound better than digital. Its worth it though. As I get older its easier no read liner notes off an LP than a CD.

For dedicated focused listening I prefer vinyl 90% of the time compared to CD/digital.   My vinyl setup is over 3X the cost of the digital equipment although my player and DAC are no slouches either- e.g. Marantz SA8005 player.    
I just don't believe throwing money at digital will make it sound that much better. 
Even though the predominant impact on sound quality is the recording/  mastering as some have mentioned, it is still easy to pick out the tendencies in the sound that digital and vinyl playback exhibit.  I prefer vinyl.  

if you think that vinyl sounds better, then your system is inadequate and you need a more resolving system with a better DAC

- @randy-11

if you think that vinyl sounds better, then your system is inadequate and you need a more resolving system with a better DAC

could you give some detailed evidence for that claim?  

here's some evidence for the other side.  My digital set-up consists of a Baetis Revolution II server feeding a Chord Hugo DAC with a 1.2m Revelation Audio Labs Cryo S/PDIF cable. The sound is nowhere near as good as what I get from my analog setup, even with the highest resolution files I can find.  

Now I understand that there are better DACs than the Hugo. And I'm sure I could tweak it here and there to good effect. But I agree with @avanti1960 . I haven't spent more money on the digital side of the system because I just don't believe it will change the sound significantly enough to justify the outlay.  

"randy-11if you think that vinyl sounds better, then your system is inadequate and you need a more resolving system with a better DAC"

If you are going to make comments like this you should post your system on Audiogon.

I prefer to take the view that posting systems mean absolutely nothing. Knowing what’s in the system is NOT a key to how the system sounds. And trying to imagine what a system sounds like based on photos is nothing more than idle speculation. It’s all just posturing. Hel-loo! Example: one of the most expensive and renowned systems extant was out of phase for at least a year. You can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear.

We are all entitled to our opinions Geoff. I think if you are going to make a comment saying someone's system, or portions of it are inadequate, you should show what you have as a comparison.

 
jperry
We are all entitled to our opinions Geoff. I think if you are going to make a comment saying someone's system, or portions of it are inadequate, you should show what you have as a comparison.

I'm saying no such thing. Don't put words in my mouth!