What would your perfect speaker sound like. Not interested in the brand, or the a speaker you heard at a friends house or audio show This is a thought experiment. Simply conjur up the most divine sound in you mind and tell us what you are conjuring.
I think we cannot judge sound through computer ... I must be in your room ...
Then my post cannot be a judgement only an impression , perhaps erroneous...
You are a very creative person ...
I wish you the best year ever ...
Every ears are different. No need for apology. Thanks for the honest opinion!
FYI, my system sounds so unique (being an only natural sound system in the world and closest to the original music) that your ears might need much time to get used.
Listen to the original music until your ears hear it correctly. Then you can judge my system sound more accurately. Alex/WTA
mahgister Mine is a mix if i can judge between shkong78 too bright sound through youtube and milhorn too dark sound through youtube ... i will keep mine ...😁😊 I apologize i could not resist
Every ears are different. No need for apology. Thanks for the honest opinion!
FYI, my system sounds so unique (being an only natural sound system in the world and closest to the original music) that your ears might need much time to get used.
Listen to the original music until your ears hear it correctly. Then you can judge my system sound more accurately.
I agree to your opinion that slight brightness can easy your listening. It is easy to make the brighter sound. Just use a worse power cord. Here’s my brighter sound recording from last month. Alex/WTA
Good drivers and very good crossovers are not enough...
They are not even necessary if you understand acoustics, you can do with what you have for the price you had pay for ...
A good driver needn’t be hellishly expensive, that would be my main takeaway. A bad driver is mostly just that, a bad driver, and one that’s oftentimes difficult if not impossible to work around and improve upon. However, look at what the late Peter Snell did with his speakers in the early 80’s with rather cheap, yet quality drivers (Philips, Audax, Becker and others) and how he paired and measured those speakers to very tight tolerances. Implementation is paramount. Crossover components needn’t be expensive either (to a degree), but needless to say their design is vital - be that passively or actively. Of course acoustics matter, but quite frequently I find acoustic measures (not least absorption) can lead to overdamping, which is hardly ideal either - worse even, I find, than a listening room a bit too lively. Balance is key, and preference is obviously a factor. Active config. takes better advantage of both amp and driver potential - another way to more effectively harness a potential within a price range.
I will let you the "perfect speakers" at astronomical cost ...
I will keep my imperfect modified one...
The speakers to which we add creativity and acoustic knowledge is the best ... Especially mine: incredible soundfield and timbre at 150 bucks ...
High end is a mindset not a price tag, to use the extraordinary post of mikelavigne ..
One thing to keep in mind is that your attitude, which I appreciate, can as well be applied with a budget of $1,500, $15k or more, not to mention a physical framework of the speakers that’s much larger. As you imply astronomical budgets can be put to very little use, and for some reason people spending that much money on equipment typically get more leeway with regard to being considered serious in their venture, but spending more money (than very little), not least on the basis of much larger speakers, shouldn’t automatically be considered a slippery slope.
I never said that big speakers must be considered a money slippery slope ... I said that acoustics knowledge help us to optimize any speakers , relatively to our needs ...In this perspective there is a trade-off between speakers of any size and any types, this trade-off can be used positively or negatively accordingly to our specfic needs and acoustics knowledge ..
All your remarks are common sense anyway and complementary to mine and i will not contradict you...
But between very bad mediocre speakers parts, and highly refined one , there is all the majority of products between very bad and very good as my low cost modified active speakers with a redesigned porthole among other things which now after modification ( knowing that any speakers is an Helmholtz resonators with his volume and porthole neck ) punch way over their ridiculous low price ...
Even "magical" acoustics won't transform small drivers into mean air shifters with the ease, scale and dynamics that offers.into
And for sure my small speakers are not transformed in " big air shifters" but i dont need that in near listenings and there is way more than "air shifting" in "magical acoustics lists of factors and concepts as you know yourself for sure...😉😊
I wish you the best year and health for you and your family in these troubled times...
Good drivers and very good crossovers are not enough...
They are not even necessary if you understand acoustics, you can do with what you have for the price you had pay for ...
A good driver needn’t be hellishly expensive, that would be my main takeaway. A bad driver is mostly just that, a bad driver, and one that’s oftentimes difficult if not impossible to work around and improve upon. However, look at what the late Peter Snell did with his speakers in the early 80’s with rather cheap, yet quality drivers (Philips, Audax, Becker and others) and how he paired and measured those speakers to very tight tolerances. Implementation is paramount. Crossover components needn’t be expensive either (to a degree), but needless to say their design is vital - be that passively or actively. Of course acoustics matter, but quite frequently I find acoustic measures (not least absorption) can lead to overdamping, which is hardly ideal either - worse even, I find, than a listening room a bit too lively. Balance is key, and preference is obviously a factor. Active config. takes better advantage of both amp and driver potential - another way to more effectively harness a potential within a price range.
I will let you the "perfect speakers" at astronomical cost ...
I will keep my imperfect modified one...
The speakers to which we add creativity and acoustic knowledge is the best ... Especially mine: incredible soundfield and timbre at 150 bucks ...
High end is a mindset not a price tag, to use the extraordinary post of mikelavigne ..
One thing to keep in mind is that your attitude, which I appreciate, can as well be applied with a budget of $1,500, $15k or more, not to mention a physical framework of the speakers that’s much larger. As you imply astronomical budgets can be put to very little use, and for some reason people spending that much money on equipment typically get more leeway with regard to being considered serious in their venture, but spending more money (than very little), not least on the basis of much larger speakers, shouldn’t automatically be considered a slippery slope. Even "magical" acoustics won't transform small drivers into mean air shifters with the ease, scale and dynamics that offers.
A perfect speaker would reproduce some of the most important characteristics (to me) that I hear in live instruments: timbral complexity, richness, full, with dense, palpable imaging and presence. And yet with a sort of combination of clarity and ease. In fact, Joseph Audio actually gives a good description in terms of what he is trying to reproduce:
"Live, unamplified music has unmistakable presence and clarity. Yet, at the same time it also sounds relaxed and warm."
That's exactly as I hear it. And funny enough...I find my Joseph speakers get about as close as I've heard to these qualities, especially with my CJ tube amps.
Another property the perfect speakers would produce is "surprisingness." Whenever I close my eyes and listen to real voices and instruments, the range of timbre and sound seems sort of unlimited. Whereas every sound system homogenizes things to a great degree. Once I hear a few tracks with drum cymbals, or sax, or acoustic guitar or whatever, I pick up the particular timbre of that speaker and I know what those instruments are going to sound like forever more on that system.
Again, one reason why I actually became infatuated with my Joseph speakers is because they offer more "surprisingness" than I've ever heard in that regard (with the possible exception of the MBL omnis I owned).
The perfect speaker will sound like the sound of original music. People have a wrong expectation that their system will sound close to the original music sound after expensive upgrades. However, no one has been succeed it and all speakers in the world sound like the left speaker in below video (except Wavetouch audio). It is sad that almost every one who pursuit for the perfect sound for decades will live with the left speaker sound for the rest of their life. No wonder people (spouses?) call them audiofools. Alex/WTA
For me it's a speaker that is rich, great soundstage and does disappear but I also agree that what I put in my main listening room does take on some similarity. My room is not ideal as it has a wall on the right side and then opens up to a stairwell on the left. Very open but not symmetrical by any means. Bottom line is address the room first and then go from there.
BTW I'm a gigging musician and hear a lot of live music both from the stage as well as seeing other bands. One thing to note is the live sounds may not always be great depending on the venue, PA, and the sound guy. It's always great to have options which is what makes this hobby so fun!
I stumble on this video about the characteristics of the Ogy speakers...
His internal labyrinth as a front porthole extended 3 feet inside but is homogenous labyrinth with a front porthole and a 4 inches concentric driver...
My own speakers the M-audio AV 40 , which i modified is a 2 way speakers with a 4 inches woofer ... But i created a waveguide extended that make a more coherent waves direction... And i created an external porthole with bent straws of different size and lenght extending 3 feet outside the speakers box...Then an heteregenous labyritnth in my case ...
The difference in bass, imaging and soundstage is too unbelievable to be true ...
I am sure this Ogy is very good...
But mine rival it probably or is not very far behind at ten times less cost ...
Most people dont understand how each speaker is a potential Helmholtz resonators , a volume with a neck an a specific cross ratio between the two and the absorbing surface properties inside , tuned or not, create a soundfield of various charaxcteristics relating to these precedent parameters ... If you think all a speakers is about are his caps and crossover you are dead wrong... It is way more complex and the mechanical part of a speakers matter as much if not more than the electrical part or the mere mechanical driver so important it could be ...
Most speakers makers dont take the trouble to make more than a simplistic horizontal porthole when they design one , because computing an internal one cost research and money and time ... An external one as mine , ask also for his optimization to do some research and is unesthetical...😁
I dont give a damn about esthetic... I want good sound and i have it at peanuts cost ... I dont even need a sub ...I listen musical acoustic instrument not movie ...it is enough clear punchy bass around 50 hertz for me ...
Look at the labyrinth of the Ogy above and listen the explanation here :
«A straw of the right size and lenght well located can make a greater upgrade in a system than thousand of dollars of gear»-- Anonymus acoustician teaching Helmholtz
It seems my idea to use a 4 inches woofer but with an elaborate porthole design labyrinth in my case outside the speakers , in the case of the Oggy speakers inside , is not an odd experiment but a perfectly controlled way to use the speakers as a refined resonator ...
Anyway i had this idea when i studied Helmholtz resonators for my room ...And when loosing my house and room i did not have the choice of speakers only my small active one i disliked for 12 years before modifying them ..
My redesigned active 2 way speakers sound so good now , i dont think listening to Huff review of the oggy than mine sound way less refined and way less good ... Anyway i paid my active speakers 100 bucks 12 years ago and they are not pointwise singular driver as the Oggy or my Tannoy but two-way...My soundfield is astounding as is my bass ...Not shaking the room but clear and not boomy and i dont need subs ...
Acoustics knowledge rule the gear not the reverse ....
The problem I see with "full range" speakers is the room. Do you have a full range room? I have played music with very accurate and tight bass in my sound room and the music sounds great. Put another song on that is fat and the whole room vibrates and sounds bad.
Speakers do not have to be full range to make me happy. They have to be engaging and organic sounding, easy to drive with wonderful uplifting midrange. (don't get me started on "soaring hi's"
I want the recording to be an excellent representation of the “song” or “music” as the artist envisioned it; I want my speaker to be very low distortion, so its not changing the source: I want the room it’s in to not change the speaker.
The myth of live music.....having been to many concerts when I enjoy one of the artists I saw I would not want to listen to them as they sounded at the live concert with the venues large PA system belting out what I would consider to be just noise. Way too many bad venues.
I much prefer to listen to well recorded music. With the intimacy that is available in my home.
Probably not a good space to design a speaker here. Once you have perfected it.....what does it sound like. Every one wants more bass. I don't I like it very fast and it doesn't have to be flat to 20 hz. That can rattle the walls. They would have to work in my listening room. Disclaimer here I am not paying anyone to build a custom listening room.
I like a speaker that provides a full range sound whether playing fairly loud or quietly. My Salon 2’s manage this now that I’ve added two very high quality subwoofers crossed over around 70hz.
An interesting exercise, and confusing when the adjectives start flying with no description of the meaning of the words. First, a speaker should do no harm. In other words, it shouldn't change the sound (especially instruments), in any way, that was captured on the recording. 1) A flat frequency response is the first requirement (and easier said than done for most speaker designers). 2) Near zero relative phase response (how the drivers relate to one another in terms of phase). This will permit a proper leading-edge dynamic. It will allow a speaker to disappear as a source of the sound. 3) With those two goals intact, the speaker must be able to faithfully track the dynamics of the recording – both micro and macro dynamics (don't underestimate the importance of faithfully resolving micro dynamics). 4) Details: the elimination of anything that veils the sound on the recording. And the ability to represent all of the ambience (reverb) the recording has on offer. If all done well, the speaker will enlist your attention and draw you into the music's beauty and intent.
I had symphony seats perhaps 12th row. Not very loud there. It is nice to hear a violin sound the way you know it does. Ditto for chelo's I love the sound of a rich full bodied chili. For violins I want them to make me cry.
Speaking of the ’perfect speaker’ apparently has a tendency to negate it as a speaker - for a good reason, it seems. And yet what’s the point of that when what we’re left with is always a setup of speakers for re-production? What’s perfect anyway - "perfect" within the limits of tech, design, acoustics and our abilities into implementation? Convenience, even?! Why not dream on within that realm and those conditions and make perfect a little less so, and yet pushing against those boundaries (not least convenience and dogma), just to make it a bit more attainable and something we actually want to aspire to. Within those limitations there’s ample room to strive pretty high, but maybe the real, implicit reason for making perfect unattainable is so many of us don’t have to deal with the mere effort of getting there - or, that is, certainly closer to "perfect."
Doesn’t any one want more bass.....apparently not in their dream speaker.
It certainly and very typically takes much more bass capacity, properly implemented, to get to that place where bass just happens in the room; wholly effortlessly, smoothly, mostly unrestricted in frequency range, and at any desired SPL. That one has to experience to understand, and yet getting there is inconvenient because the practical measures necessitated would challenge interior decoration and spousal approval.
Assuming that big orchestra is one instrument, perfect speakers should sound very close to that instrument at any sound level. And if to accomplish that they have to be of enormous size, so be it.
I honestly don’t know, other than it would be so enjoyable to listen to that there’d be no way to make a speaker more enjoyable to listen to. That might involve some elements of extreme realism, and some elements of artful coloration.
Assuming that big orchestra is one instrument, perfect speakers should sound very close to that instrument at any sound level. And if to accomplish that they have to be of enormous size, so be it.
I Own M-Studio Mv40 speakers self powered...They compared in specs to the 80 hertz limit Of the LS3 5AS...
Instead of investing 10,000 bucks as advised by Mijostyn whose pocket seems without limit...😁
😊
I put a bunch of straws in the Port hole behind , increasing then the volume of the resonators chamber increasing my bass extension and depth then i helped the Tweeter directional focalization to my ears by putting a plastic ring around the tweeters ...
No cost....
Complete transformation of a good cheap speakers in superlative small one......( i arrange an acoustic corner too for them )
I go more down in the bass , and the bass i have have way more extension...
My cheap speakers beat all headphones i ever own...Save my beloved K340...
If you want to purchase a bigger soundfield for more person in a bigger room invest 10,000 bucks in some good bigger speaker able to go near 30 hertz...
With this money which is more than 10,000 bucks for 2 dac, 2 subs, a DSP you will spare all that useless cables and intermediate stage with one bigger pair of speakers...
It is my advice...
If i listen Organ music with 30 hertz notes myself i quit my little speakers and go on my headphone...
For jazz they are perfect... Cost : 100 bucks...
LS3 5As have no bass below 80 Hz at 3 feet or any feet for that matter. Get a pair of KEF K92 subwoofers and a MiniDSP SHD Studio with two Benchmark DACs. This will make you a 90% system (better than 90% of the systems out there).
LS3 5As have no bass below 80 Hz at 3 feet or any feet for that matter. Get a pair of KEF K92 subwoofers and a MiniDSP SHD Studio with two Benchmark DACs. This will make you a 90% system (better than 90% of the systems out there).
If the original music (cleanest) sounds veiled and fuzzy, your ears are unnatural hearing mode. To make your ears to normal natural sound mode, listen to the original music for 1-2 minutes ("equalize your ears to make ears to pop to make it faster) until the orig music sounds clean.
General public (non-audiophiles) ears are always in natural hearing mode. So, they hear all hi-fi audio sound veiled and fuzzy. Therefore, wives don't like hi-fi audio sounds. All audio systems (except my WT system) in the world sound unnatural. Alex/Wavetouch
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