Stop believing in this wire nonsense! Your amp will work and sound fine on a standard 15 amp circuit. It is not a washing machine or stove (30 amps). You are just throwing money away!
What type of wire for dedicated 20A AC lines?
I’m about to have two 20A dedicated lines installed. What type of wire should I use? I know there are differences of opinion on whether to use 10 AWG or 12 AWG, however the link below makes a great case for using even 8 AWG solid core copper on longer runs like mine will be (50 ft), to ensure a lower resistance, lower voltage drop over the long run, and therefore more access to instantaneous current for my Gryphon Diablo 300. The wire would need to be stepped down to 10 AWG to connect with the receptacle. The article actually states that the thickness of the wire is more important than the fact that it is dedicated…
Assuming I want to follow this advice, which again makes sense to me, where would I find such wire to give to my electrician?
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Yeah, I have to agree with @jasonbourne52 .8 AWG seems like overkill. I have a powerful SS amp and I ran my own dedicated line. I used 12 AWG because I had a whole box of it on hand. My system is dead quiet and I have no problems. I can see going to 10 AWG but let's face it, you're not powering an arc welder! |
I got some very good advice about dedicated lines, including from members here and from Chris Venhaus at VH audio. Here's a compilation of some of that advice. If there are multiple dedicated outlets... Wires between the breaker panel and the dedicated outlets: Wire must be: If you run a Subpanel it should be: Breakers in subpanel feeding audio lines: All contacts between breakers and wire should be clean, tight, and treated with silver paste |
I assume you live in the US... Solid core #8awg 600V insulated power wiring hasn’t been made in years. Insulated #10awg is the largest solid core wire made...
For a 50ft run, length, #10 should be more than adequate. I doubt if pushing the amp hard playing music with high dynamics will cause any VD, (Voltage Drop), on the branch circuit wiring. Here is a review quote from Six Moons on the amp:
I am not sure if the 1900W is continuous or short, quick, draws of current that would be caused from pushing the amp hard playing music with high dynamic passages. 50ft of #10awg should handle the load without any AC Line VD. Power amp’s power supplies like a steady state AC mains voltage. As for the type of branch circuit wiring to use I would recommend 10-2 solid core with ground MC, (Metal Clad), aluminum armor cable. * MC, NOT, AC armor cable *... 2nd choice 10-2 with ground NM-B, (Romex Trade Name), sheathed cable. Breaker size 20 amp .
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Run 10/AWG BX/MC cable with solid copper core conductors from the breaker panel to metal receptacle boxes. Mike The 240V Option
Some high end amps can be switched over and run on 220 volts and I recommend it may sound better. The transformer primaries and the core seem to run slight more efficiently yielding lower impedance so the supply might appear slightly ‘stiffer’ to the amp’s audio circuits (always a good thing). Because the amp is now running at twice the voltage but half the amps (current) the wall wiring looks twice as thick to the amp as it does at 120 volt (ohms law). Now the amp makes even less audio noise on the line and it then rejects its own line noise better. The 220 volt outlet can be a standard 15 amp with 10 Ga.. Wire up to 80 feet then 8 gauge beyond that. For the 220 volt lines, the electrician may, or may not know about a NEMA receptacle and plug number that is the same size and form as our common Edison duplex 120 volt receptacle but the wide blade of the plug is on the opposite side as the 120 volt duplex. Hubble or commercial Leviton works fine for 220 volt, and the 6-20 series looks less industrial in your home. It is Nema plug number 6-20P. ‘Stay on line‘ is a good source but your electrician may like a local supplier. BE SURE TO CHANGE OVER THE AMP INTERNALLY IF YOU DECIDE TO RUN 220 VOLT ! Last Trick – Twist the conductorsLastly, you might ask him to twist the conductors one twist every 6-8 inches or so. Each line should be alternately twisted relative to the one next to it. This prevents any coherent coupling between them. Keep them away from each other by minimum 4 inches. It is perfectly OK to cross them at a right angle. Final WordIf your electrician has any concerns about all this, be aware he is always concerned about CONTINUOUS current draw and rates everything and splits up the loads like the air conditioning and the electric dryer for the available amperage. Please explain to him that we are designing for incredibly short peak current pulses and we need the resistance back to the utility as low as possible for best amplifier performance. The continuous draw is negligible from an electrical standpoint. 10 gauge wire is the largest size that will fit into a wall outlet and as far as I know does not violate any codes but you and your electrician are responsible to be sure this is true in your state, county, and city. Be sure that your speaker cable is at least 10 gauge. You should consider 8 or 9 gauge for speakers that are below 87db sensitivity, and/ or 4 ohms. Some manufacturers say, ‘our 14 gauge behaves like 10 gauge, etc.’, this could be true but I go for the real measured gauge. Now, without exception over the last 12 years, comments from those that have done the above heavy gauge wire wall power mods say there is audible improvement in dynamics while making the sound even more detailed, yet much more relaxed with dark backgrounds leaving only the notes and music. I was very surprised the first time I did this house power mod. I did not expect the mid-range and the highs to clean up and get more coherent as much as they did. Of course bass and dynamics are better as you would expect with better current delivery.
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Thanks all, I checked Home Depot’s site and couldn’t find any solid core 10 AWG wire. I guess an electrical supply shop might have it. Also, I assume I need three conductors including ground? Sorry if that’s a dumb question! I understand the rationale for the 240V option. Will try to consider any cons of this approach. Anyone tried this?
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@thyname , thanks, this is the specific info I was after. Probably costs a ton as it is for audiophile applications though! Looks like you can only get it in 29ft max runs though, at least on TheCableCo. |
@nyev : I am fortunate that my audio system is very close to the distribution box, and lengthy wires are not required.
It’s been a few years since I did this, but I remember I bought it (along with other stuff) from Alan Kafton at Audio Excellence in AZ. Back then, I think I paid about $300-$400 for 10-20 feet run I can't remember exact details. Not super expensive |
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@jea48 , thanks and I did see that option in the US Home Depot site, but no similar wire available from the Canadian HD site (only 12 AWG MC). I will ask my electrician for sure. I just want to be prepared first as from what I’ve read, electricians tend to get their wires crossed (pun intended) when communicating with audiophiles, with concerns over 10 AWG and expectations of mega current (not realizing it the heavy gauge is to support ultra brief current spikes and not continuous current which is much lower). That Audience wire noted above would be WAY more expensive as expected, but I wonder if it’s worth it?
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@jea48 , no, it’s mounted vertically - curious, why do you ask? |
@jea48 , just called the electrician that my dealer directed me to. Very glad you explained the difference in cables to me, thank you! Electrician immediately assumed I would want BX. I explained that no I need the separate ground wire and the electrician said “ah you need the insulated green with the metal clad” and he said that made total sense for the application, so that each device has their own connection to our house’s ground. So thanks again for clarifying that or I wouldn’t have known. He also said he understood the need for heavier gauge solid core wire to support instantaneous current availability, which he said would be particularly important for longer runs like what I need. Glad I started this thread or I may have ended up with the wrong wire! He is coming by in a week or so to provide an estimate. |
With 10 AWG vs 12 AWG there seems to be strong differences of opinion. But my electrician had no concerns and said the 10 AWG would offer lower resistance and a lower voltage drop over a longer run which I need. That part is totally accurate and I believe is not in dispute. What IS in dispute is whether said voltage drop with lighter wire is enough to impact performance. But for me, if the electrician is willing to go with 10 AWG, it seems like a no-brainer. There is no downside except a relatively small extra cost. BTW my electrician said 10 AWG wire is used in commercial applications all the time. |
Regarding multiple paths to ground with my two dedicated lines: I’m not sure yet if I will run my amp off one and my sources with a conditioner off another, or if I run everything on one line with a conditioner. I guess it depends on how the amp performs plugged directly into its own new line, vs plugged into the conditioner with everything else. But if I do end up connecting the amp to its own new line, and my conditioner and sources in the other new line, am I heading into ground loop territory? |
Depending on the length of the run and whether it is in conduit, 12 AWG may not meet local code for a 20A line. In any event, consider that NEC sets only minimum standards. There’s more than one good reason to use 10AWG on a 20A line. |
It’s a known fact that bigger copper wire less resistance easier load .i have awg 10: in my dedicated line ,and a 4wire with a common ground ,and key a insulated isolated ground ,with its own buzz bar grid inside the panel and contacts are from Siemens I believe 30 amp Silver plated Copper industrial quality installed several years ago and a big step up in sound much blacker quiet back ground. |
This is legit comedy gold... A gentleman I work with holds the Bell Labs patent on high speed data lines with negative phase cancelation. AKA, twisted pair ethernet wire. You’re at a low enough frequency that the advice given on phase cancelation doesn’t matter. It isn’t relevant. I did grounding and bonding in telecom for years, none of what you're saying above will work. It will not cause blacker blacks, deeper blues, or crisper highs. Spend the money on a new record or cartridge. Your recommendations to twist and cross wires won’t help significantly if the lines are linked back on a common buss bar in the panel box, or share a common ground (they do.) To truly isolate your signal, you'd need a filter bank off the pole (we used massive banks of lead acid batteries), float your ground, and re-establish it elsewhere. You're not doing that in residential construction.
8AWG will give you no more current than 12AWG of the amp doesn’t need it. It doesn’t if it’s not 240v. Nothing sold 120v in the US exceeds 15A draw. For a reason. It doesn’t meet the National Electric Code.
If it’s continuous duty above 15a, they make the device 240v. Small surges (transients or power up Cap "filling") are fine on 12/2, and for big amps, they should have a timed/gradual circuit to handle in-rush current.
Go to Lowes. Buy 12/2 romex. Buy a decent plug (Leviton premium, hospital grade if you want it to grip harder), be done. If you have noise in your circuit, fix the ground on the offensive item (usually a motor.) If you still have noise, buy an amp with a better power supply design. Only time I ever had noise existing on an actual AC circuit, from the pole, was at a friend’s house near a 60kW AM station’s antenna array. I doubt you’re in the same boat. |
So funny how contentious certain unexpected areas can be with our hobby! I’ve seen more than a few smart people all with strong points (at least to a layman like me) pointing to why lower gauge is better, or not. And, it’s amusing how ridiculous each side thinks the other is being! In my case it doesn’t really matter as my electrician will install 10AWG no problem. Again, a no brainer for the few extra bucks. Also, you are not quite right on amplifiers not drawing more than 15A, when talking about instantaneous, or sometimes referred to as “peak” current. |
@Nyev my 2 cents would be... if you are going to the trouble to provide low impedance AC mains, please rethink any "power conditioner". The power supply of your sweet amp will absolutely have all the power conditioning it requires... I run my sources with conditioning, and earth grounded. I use a bridge rectifier circuit ( N. Pass circuit) for earth grounding on my amps which only activates on short. I would consult Gryphon on grounding scheme. |
@pwayland , I would love to connect my amp into the wall with no conditioner if that works. Trouble is, my single 15A circuit (which has a few other devices in our house that are all off when my stereo is on) seems to pick up line noise during the day that doesn’t seem to come from our household. We have tenants with their own breaker panel that is branched off of ours, and whenever they go out, my sound quality goes up! But by far the best sound is after midnight- it’s so good I’m blown away every time I hear it and I can’t stop listening. Because it’s clear that the source of the noise is 1) My tenants, and 2) the general grid in my neighborhood, these sources of noise will continue to exist after I install the dedicated lines. There is no logical reason why the dedicated lines will solve those two particular sources of AC line noise, and as such I think the only solution will be conditioning. I’d be extremely happy if I didn’t need one though. I’m really happy with my current tonal balance so I’d much prefer not to have to risk messing with that. But I will try experimenting with conditioners for sure if I still have those day/night massive SQ swings after installing the dedicated lines. I also have an Innuos PhoenixNET on order, to isolate any noise coming in on the Ethernet. It’s generally very well reviewed and I got great results with the PhoenixUSB reclocker. In fact, the Reclocker along with my Nordost Valhalla 2 speaker wire and power cable (AQ Dragon HC for my amp) upgrades were what increased the resolution of my system and exposed the AC noise (or possibly Ethernet noise?) issue. Before these upgrades I was blissfully ignorant to the problem of noise! In case you are wondering, I am not rich, I saved up a lot, and decided I didn’t need my rather newish semi-luxury car which we didn’t care about and still had payments on! My end-game cables and gear (which took decades of effort and a lot of disappointment before getting it right) make me way happier than my car did. Priorities! |
@dancarlson10 , that’s totally an option. Since I will have two dedicated lines, I can borrow a demo Niagara 5000, and hopefully a Torus RM20 from another dealer, and if I’m really lucky, a Nordost QB8 (which isn’t a conditioner at all), and I can experiment to see what sounds best. Including simply connecting my amp straight to the wall. Nordost support has told me multiple times to be cautious with conditioners with amplifiers. While they generally work if they are designed to supply the necessary instantaneous current, Nordost says they change the tonal balance. Which I heard first hand trying the small AC line filtering device from Shunyata (Venom Power Defender). That device cleaned up the sound a bit, but also decreased lower frequencies while raising the upper frequencies, at least in my system. I don’t need or want my tonal balance changed, if I can help it! Of note, Nordost twice now has told me that if a conditioner is really needed to deal with noise, that Torus is a good brand, or “I’ve heard good things about Torus”, but of course cautioned me to try first due to tonal impacts. |
My two cents. Much of what is advocated (large diameter wire, solid copper, etc) is technically **true** but of almost zero incremental value, or, in other cases, "a given" whit US and EU code at least. I do have a 20A home run from my main panel to a single, quad outlet in my music room. I do have hospital grade outlets in it (a big $30 or so). It is 12 gauge (but code demands it anyway!). It is copper (but any quality romex or BX is copper). yes you want it off the phase, but why would anyone create a 20A single phase circuit from two? Mysteries abound. I do advocate a noise filter of some form, a very large isolation transformer or a low pass filter that essentially removes noise. Most of these are fairly minor improvements, more a "lack of issues". yes your amp will have a boig power supply and remove much noise. But the lower the starting point the lower the ending point - all power supplies are filters that can be characterized in dB loss at a given frequency - low in, lower out. Iso transformers are a trade off - great in theory, but you need to over spec them (i'd say 2 kW) and some general mechanical noise. This is not about moving more current. That comes from your power supply, either C or LC. And the current you can move through 14 guage (even 16!) is HUGE relative to what you need. Code covers the limits already. Honestly, crap outlets (bad connections) re among the worst problems, along with old, creaky wiring both in and outside your house. Most modern subdivisions are fine. My public wiring is >70 years old (but meh, still basically fine). The other BIG DEAL is avoiding ground potential differences (loops). Every single piece of your rig ought to go back to the SAME feed. Use really good power strips if, like me, you have a dozen plugs. Minimize the "spanning tree". Put digital stuff (computers, TVs...) on a different circuit, hopefully ont he other side of a power filter. They represent the noise you are worried about and may have, like spies, infiltrated your room directly - dont look too far, the noise is right in front of you. Use common sense. |
I am not an electrician, but if I was building the ultimate system I would use 2 to 4 gauge power wire fitted through conduit. Would it make a difference in sound, who knows. But I like the idea of having everything overbuilt. You can get a 100 feet of 4 gauge from powerwerx for less than $500. If you are going to redo your internal wiring why skimp? |
I ran #2 wire to a sub panel and then made 2 runs of this stuff: https://www.gigawatt.eu/produkt/in-wall-cable-gigawatt-lc-y-3x4-mk3/ Along with Furutech GTX outlets, this wire has made a very positive impact on my system. It has brought my Coda #16 to life. |
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@cleeds Since the OP simply stated he was running two new lines and did not mention any special conditions, I have assumed this is standard in home/wall wiring. Yes there may be other considerations if this not the case. I always assume the local building codes will be followed. Other than that I stand by my comments. Cheers. |
12/2 NM Copper Wire. Available at any DIY store. All you will ever need to meet code and run 20 Amps. Go to 10/2 if it makes you feel good, even though there is probably zero benefit. You system can only draw so much current and the 12/2 wire has no problem providing more than that. All this talk about about exotic cables, or going to 8 gague is just noise, and isn't that exactly what you are trying to get rid of? Would you pay for an 800 HP engine in your car if the local speed limit never exceeded 30 MPH? Than why would you pay for cable that you will never benefit from. Maybe this whole argument is becoming a macho "my cable is bigger than your cable" thing? There's some compensating going on in this thread. 🤣