What type of wire for dedicated 20A AC lines?

Thanks all, I checked Home Depot’s site and couldn’t find any solid core 10 AWG wire.  I guess an electrical supply shop might have it.

Also, I assume I need three conductors including ground?  Sorry if that’s a dumb question!

I understand the rationale for the 240V option.  Will try to consider any cons of this approach.  Anyone tried this?

So funny how contentious certain unexpected areas can be with our hobby! I’ve seen more than a few smart people all with strong points (at least to a layman like me) pointing to why lower gauge is better, or not. And, it’s amusing how ridiculous each side thinks the other is being!

In my case it doesn’t really matter as my electrician will install 10AWG no problem. Again, a no brainer for the few extra bucks.

Also, you are not quite right on amplifiers not drawing more than 15A, when talking about instantaneous, or sometimes referred to as “peak” current.

https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/understanding-peak-current-in-amplifiers-and-ac-power-distributors

@dancarlson10 , that is great that your QB-8 approach worked so well for you. I am really hoping that approach will work for me.  AC line conditions and other variables (like how many houses are serviced by a public transformer) will vary from house to house and system to system, so what works best for you may not work for me.  I’d say if I’m lucky I will arrive at your solution, since the QB8 will have the least coloration of the sound vs conditioners.

Nordost told me that you can’t even judge a particular conditioner’s effect or lack of effect on tonal balance as a generalization, because the effect on tonal balance, if any, is entirely system dependent.  So what works for one person may not work for another, given all the variables.

Here’s a question about the work my electrician is about to do: is there any creative way I can isolate the AC noise that our tenants generate from our lines?

Our tenants have their own breaker panel that is fed off of our breaker panel. Someone above suggested a particular filter device to deal with noise coming into the whole house. My fear however is that this could do something to the tonal balance that I’d be stuck with. Filters can do that. But, I was wondering if such a device could isolate our AC lines from our tenants, on the tenant’s side of the breaker so it doesn’t impact our lines?

Or maybe there is another way to isolate their AC from ours?

Good discussion, thank you.  Just to reiterate my question:  what “10 AWG or better” wire to get, that is solid core copper.

So, assuming I wanted to get this caliber of wire, which should I get and where do I buy it?

@thyname , thanks, this is the specific info I was after. Probably costs a ton as it is for audiophile applications though!

Looks like you can only get it in 29ft max runs though, at least on TheCableCo.

Would this be ideal:

@jea48 , just called the electrician that my dealer directed me to. Very glad you explained the difference in cables to me, thank you! Electrician immediately assumed I would want BX. I explained that no I need the separate ground wire and the electrician said “ah you need the insulated green with the metal clad” and he said that made total sense for the application, so that each device has their own connection to our house’s ground. So thanks again for clarifying that or I wouldn’t have known.

He also said he understood the need for heavier gauge solid core wire to support instantaneous current availability, which he said would be particularly important for longer runs like what I need.

Glad I started this thread or I may have ended up with the wrong wire!

He is coming by in a week or so to provide an estimate.

@jea48 , thanks and I did see that option in the US Home Depot site, but no similar wire available from the Canadian HD site (only 12 AWG MC).

I will ask my electrician for sure. I just want to be prepared first as from what I’ve read, electricians tend to get their wires crossed (pun intended) when communicating with audiophiles, with concerns over 10 AWG and expectations of mega current (not realizing it the heavy gauge is to support ultra brief current spikes and not continuous current which is much lower). That Audience wire noted above would be WAY more expensive as expected, but I wonder if it’s worth it?

@jea48 , no, it’s mounted vertically - curious, why do you ask?

With 10 AWG vs 12 AWG there seems to be strong differences of opinion. But my electrician had no concerns and said the 10 AWG would offer lower resistance and a lower voltage drop over a longer run which I need. That part is totally accurate and I believe is not in dispute.

What IS in dispute is whether said voltage drop with lighter wire is enough to impact performance. But for me, if the electrician is willing to go with 10 AWG, it seems like a no-brainer. There is no downside except a relatively small extra cost.

BTW my electrician said 10 AWG wire is used in commercial applications all the time.

Regarding multiple paths to ground with my two dedicated lines:  I’m not sure yet if I will run my amp off one and my sources with a conditioner off another, or if I run everything on one line with a conditioner.  I guess it depends on how the amp performs plugged directly into its own new line, vs plugged into the conditioner with everything else.  But if I do end up connecting the amp to its own new line, and my conditioner and sources in the other new line, am I heading into ground loop territory?

@pwayland , I would love to connect my amp into the wall with no conditioner if that works. Trouble is, my single 15A circuit (which has a few other devices in our house that are all off when my stereo is on) seems to pick up line noise during the day that doesn’t seem to come from our household. We have tenants with their own breaker panel that is branched off of ours, and whenever they go out, my sound quality goes up! But by far the best sound is after midnight- it’s so good I’m blown away every time I hear it and I can’t stop listening.

Because it’s clear that the source of the noise is 1) My tenants, and 2) the general grid in my neighborhood, these sources of noise will continue to exist after I install the dedicated lines. There is no logical reason why the dedicated lines will solve those two particular sources of AC line noise, and as such I think the only solution will be conditioning. I’d be extremely happy if I didn’t need one though. I’m really happy with my current tonal balance so I’d much prefer not to have to risk messing with that. But I will try experimenting with conditioners for sure if I still have those day/night massive SQ swings after installing the dedicated lines.

I also have an Innuos PhoenixNET on order, to isolate any noise coming in on the Ethernet. It’s generally very well reviewed and I got great results with the PhoenixUSB reclocker. In fact, the Reclocker along with my Nordost Valhalla 2 speaker wire and power cable (AQ Dragon HC for my amp) upgrades were what increased the resolution of my system and exposed the AC noise (or possibly Ethernet noise?) issue. Before these upgrades I was blissfully ignorant to the problem of noise!

In case you are wondering, I am not rich, I saved up a lot, and decided I didn’t need my rather newish semi-luxury car which we didn’t care about and still had payments on! My end-game cables and gear (which took decades of effort and a lot of disappointment before getting it right) make me way happier than my car did. Priorities!

@dancarlson10 , that’s totally an option. Since I will have two dedicated lines, I can borrow a demo Niagara 5000, and hopefully a Torus RM20 from another dealer, and if I’m really lucky, a Nordost QB8 (which isn’t a conditioner at all), and I can experiment to see what sounds best. Including simply connecting my amp straight to the wall. Nordost support has told me multiple times to be cautious with conditioners with amplifiers. While they generally work if they are designed to supply the necessary instantaneous current, Nordost says they change the tonal balance. Which I heard first hand trying the small AC line filtering device from Shunyata (Venom Power Defender). That device cleaned up the sound a bit, but also decreased lower frequencies while raising the upper frequencies, at least in my system. I don’t need or want my tonal balance changed, if I can help it!  Of note, Nordost twice now has told me that if a conditioner is really needed to deal with noise, that Torus is a good brand, or “I’ve heard good things about Torus”, but of course cautioned me to try first due to tonal impacts.

See?  Tons of opposing but well-informed opinions whenever this topic comes up!  So weird that gauge of wire could be such a polarizing topic.

There are so many variables that I’m not sure the physics can fully inform the nature of sonic effects of gear.  For certain cabling, including power cords, I can blindly identify which cable is connected when comparing between two cables.  And more expensive doesn’t mean better.  I recently discovered that the generic USB cable that came with my USB reclocker sounds better than the AudioQuest Diamond USB - go figure (AQ Diamond sounds better when connecting my streamer directly to the DAC and bypassing my reclocker however). Didn’t mean for this thread to go down that path, but oh well!

Again, it’s not as if it’s a big cost to get my electrician to go to 10AWG, so if I’m going through all this trouble, that relatively tiny cost in case it does help is definitely worth it.  Peace of mind.  Boy people seem to be passionate about shooting down any need for 10 AWG!  I wonder why that is.
 

@dancarlson10 , really hoping I get that same result with my dedicated lines and I care less about the conditioners after it!  I’m so looking forward to it….  As I said above my dealer said “you won’t know what hit you”, and it’s not like he gets a sale out of it.  Well, he gets to sell me two Shunyata wall receptacles for $300 but he didn’t know that at the time (and still doesn’t…).  I was going to wait for the electrician to provide the quote and be good with the plan, but I think I’ll take a small risk and order them now so there is less of a delay!

@poppsg , yes Ohm’s law absolutely comes into play here! I remember those formulas back from school; I really got into that stuff. I’m by no means an expert. I will call you on “It is also true that devices designed to plug into general purpose outlets cannot exceed 15amps.” which isn’t accurate when referring to momentary “peak current” or “instantaneous current” which can go up to 70A for milliseconds at a time. Again, I’m no expert, but I think this is pretty widely understood when it comes to amplifiers!

This stuff is awesome and I barely comprehend the explanations, but it sounds like there are strong arguments that I’m going to really going to enjoy my big fat 10AWG wires with lower resistance, enabling more rapid access to glorious peak current, all for like two hundred bucks extra, give or take. And if the anti 10-gauge crew end up being right and it does nothing, the extra bucks will totally still be worth it knowing those big fat wires are providing the juice!  Can’t go wrong.

@ditusa , yes I was planning on installing two lines, and then playing around with what configuration sounds the best.

For others to reference, I’ve read it’s important to have all of your lines on the same electrical phase.  The electrician will know how to do this with your breaker panel, but probably won’t know to do it without being directed.

To chime in on an update.  I’ve since engaged @kingrex ’s services to spec out my AC lines and other fixes for my electrician to follow.  Rex has been doing this for years and as he said above, I’ve since learned that it goes way, way beyond just the gauge of the wire…

Here is what Michael Fremer of Stereophile said about Rex working with Garth Powell of Audioquest, when they and others joined forces to resolve Michael Fremer’s AC issues: