What qualities stand out in really good solid state preamps?

@hilde45  "2. I recently compared two SS preamps and heard differences between them."

If one of those preamps was more neutral than the other then you may have been hearing the cumulative effects of your source, amp and wires rather than contributions from the preamp.  Two solid state preamps come to mind that others have described (in other forums here and in reviews elsewhere) as neutral or near-neutral and very transparent are the Benchmark LA-4 and the Holo Audio Serene.  These should enable you to compare amps better than your tubed preamp.  I recently removed an excellent solid state preamp from the chain and was amazed by what I heard. Now I am trying to decide if I should keep the preamp out of the chain and only use it when I listen to my phono front end, look for a different, completely neutral preamp, or go for a tubed preamp to ADD certain colorations that are desirable TO ME.  Tough one.

Have used several SS preamps from Krell, Spectral, Mac, Musical Fidelity & vintage Tandberg. I can emphatically say I personally prefer a tube preamp/tube amp setup to compliment my spakers and the rest of my kit however, I recently got to try an Audia Flight Linestage w/phono card that was without question the best SS line/pre I've ever experienced and for all the reasons previously spoken about. The power amp always holds the dynamics & soundscape card but this preamp was A. dead quiet B. is fully ballanced (thats my jam) C. added zero coloring that I could detect 4. visually, looks are stunning and it has the feel of a fine precision instrument. Now, I know little about this company other than what I've now read online after playing around with this thing but I could own one for sure. It would have to play well with my other gear but, looking at the specs and knowing it has an adjustable gain, it would be worth a shot. Maybe next time... just my opinion

• tone - must be natural 
• dynamic range - must be able to sound laid back and gentle but scale up to explosive forces fast, as fast as demanded by the recording 
• low noise floor
• Texture in the bass
• warm and palpable mids
• extended and sweet highs
• nice, non-clicking silent volume control (want to be able to adjust volume without hearing any clicking or other artifacts)
• must image well and create a realistic and colorful soundstage

These are the attributes are what I look for in an amp, except the clicking volume.

I have 2 great preamp volume controls and like the clicking one the best. Though a smooth heavy wheel volume control is luxurious.

 

This is a very nice list.  For my tastes, I will nitpick and slightly change 

• Texture in the bass
• warm and palpable mids

to just

• Palpable Texture/Mass across the entire frequency spectrum; added warmth I can live without if I get the life like image and presentation.

I settled on the SimAudio 740P 8 years ago or so and that list is what I find it generally gives me compared to a handful of preamps I compared it with at the time and more importantly now when I constantly try different DACs as I swap them in and out of my system.   It's been the one constant in my system over the last 8 years as amp, speakers, and many DACs come and go.   

With so many good DACs having preamp functionality it is so easy now a days to compare what a preamp does well and not so well when you swap in a very good DAC direct to your amp.   I've yet to try a DAC direct (Bricasti M3 and Meitner MA3 are the two best I've tried direct) that beat it in a majority of that list.   I've found the noise floor and ultimate resolution usually slightly win with the DAC but the others generally go to my preamp to my ears.

The other attribute I really like in a preamp is the flexibility and quality of the volume control.   I've tried some preamps both tube and solid state where the range of volume you can make when you slightly turn the volume knob is just too large and I can't get the small changes I want.   I often try to adjust different songs with different recording levels to play at the same volume and it can be difficult if the volume control lacks small increments and doesn't explicitly show you a setting.   

The 740p for instance allows both 1dB down to 0.1dB volume changes depending on the range overall gain level and speed at which you change it, which makes levelling and adjusting to different songs a breeze!

Believe it or not, one of the very best sounding solid state preamps is the preamp section of Yamaha’s top tier integrated amps. For that reason I would heavily consider the Yamaha C-5000 preamp if budget allows. 

@audphile1 
Spring KTE does NOT have optional preamp.
Schiit SYS is an interesting idea. I've tried passive pre's before and they're pretty lifeless - but I understand this would be for comparison purposes.
@jc4659 

@hilde45  "2. I recently compared two SS preamps and heard differences between them."
If one of those preamps was more neutral than the other then you may have been hearing the cumulative effects of your source, amp and wires rather than contributions from the preamp.

I wouldn't say the difference came back to neutrality in a tonal sense. They were both neutral. But, as was described earlier in this thread, there were differences in instrument presence, realism (if you will), soundstage width and depth, and dynamics.

@bgross 
Audia Flight Linestage -- thanks!
    
@ddafoe 

Thanks for the tweak to the description of bass and mids and for the comment about volume control accuracy as an important factor.

@helomech -- Yamaha! Who woulda guessed!

 

This back panel shows the versatility that Hafler Iris had, wish I knew about it way back when (1989).

 

 

 

Stereophile Review 1989, updated 2008.

Hafler Iris, SS, all printed circuit board, is only 35 years old, my McIntosh mx110z, hand soldered Tubes, is only 58 years old. Refurbished, these things are hard to beat.

 

I keep yapping about the Chase RLC-1, this Hafler certainly adds remote control and more.

Quiet, absolute silence!

This Vintage Acoustic Research had/has a Remote Control, balanced IN/OUT

 

I have kept a list of those I have owned over many years. It probably needs updating but here it is...

Preamps I Have Owned

1. The Best

SMc Audio TLC SE (Signature Edition)

(Formerly a McCormack TLC-1, which was upgraded by SMc Audio and is now a zero-gain, buffered preamplifier with Lundahl input transformers, a Shallco discrete volume control using Audio Note Tantalum resistors, and a choke power supply as used for the SMc VRE-1 preamplifier)(Update 2019: Disconnected volume control and replaced with two Audio Note Silver Tantalum resistors to create a unity-gain buffer for use with a stand-alone, remotely controlled, Khozmo volume control with display)

2. Excellent

Hattor “The Big” Preamp

(Passive/Active remote controlled preamp using Amtrans AMRG discrete resistor volume control/dual-mono with large display/options to operate passively, or actively through NewClassD op-amps with selectable 3/6/9 dB gain, very clear with great tone and dynamics, very close to the best preamps on this list at an amazingly high value to cost ratio)

Lifechanger Audio Smart icOn 4Pro Passive Preamp

(Autoformer, AVC, passive preamp/remote controlled, full function, with awesome display/full-sounding with nice tone and very good dynamics for a passive)

Tom Evans Audio Design Vibe (Lithos 7) with Pulse II Power Supply

(Amazingly real and right-sounding op-amp preamp with “Lithos” regulators, DACT attenuator and an outboard power supply, single-ended only, bare bones operation)

Lamm Industries LL2 Deluxe

(Tubed rectified/tubed output preamp with dual Alps volume controls really nice sound with the absence of balanced operation, remote, and display being the main reasons I still don’t own one)

3. Good

GamuT D3i – good clarity and tone but slightly sterile/lacking body compared to the best

NAT Symmetrical - quite good sounding but a bit tubey in the bass

Acoustic Imagery Jay-Sho * - (Bent Audio Tap-X Autoformer Preamp) Good clarity and tone while slightly lacking drive compared to the best

4. Fair to Good

MUSE Model Three Signature - Owned twice, good body and tone but IMO limited by chip volume control which leads to slightly electronic sound

McCormack/SMc RLD-1 Platinum - Massive drive and good, but not great, tone and body

Atmosphere MP3 (fully decked out with Caddock resistors and Teflon caps) – never grew to like the sound…a little too much pristine clarity for my tastes

Goldpoint Passive – Excellent clarity when used with input impedance of 100K ohms+, but bested by the improved body and drive offered by really good active preamps

Aesthetix Calypso – a little noisy and unrefined compared to the best

VTL TL5.5 – not bad but not special

CAT SL-1 Ultimate MkII

(I see how some would like this but high gain made it sound forced to me)

Sonic Frontiers Line 3 Signature Edition – a behemoth with many tubes

Endler Attenuators

(Passive resistor volume in-line control attaches direct to amps)

Lector Zoe – fun to tube roll since it allows the use of several types of tubes, nice sounding, does no wrong but not as detailed or hard-hitting as others

Ayre K-5xeMP – too clean and a little hi-fi sounding for my tastes

5. Nothing Special

Adcom GFP750 – good for the money

Joule Electra LA-150 MkII – never sounded better than average in my system

Morrison Elad – Ok for secondary systems

BAT VK51SE – thick sounding

H2O Fire – unrefined

Purity Audio Buffer - terrible

* Auditioned in my system but did not purchase

@hilde45 Thanks for the explanation of your gear. You seem to be searching not only for differences, but for value. Your Quicksilver and Pass amps are nice gear. I assume you’ve found the solid state preamps you’ve tried are more neutral than your tube preamp, with tighter bass, a lower noise floor and perhaps more extended highs. Those are just guesses based on my listening experience.

As others have noted, if you haven’t already tried one, the Pass XP-12 should be a good match for your Pass amp. I would expect a pre-owned unit, however, to cost considerably more than an Ayre K-5. 
 

I hope you can audition more preamps and find one that stands out from the others. 

I’m surprised at the lack of focus on the relationship between the preamp and the amp. In my experience, the electrical characteristics of the preamp’s output and the amp’s input has had the greatest influence on getting good SQ out of the match.

That of course assumes decent gear. But I would bet a lot of what people are hearing and experiencing isn’t really inherent in the preamp, but rather the combination with the power amp. Lesser but still true with the relationship between the source and the preamp - my phono stage has a hot output and some of the preamps simply haven’t like it.  It's a bad match with my Levinson. 

In terms of SS, I have a Bryston, a classic Levinson ML-26, and an Emotiva. I use the last one the most, for daily low volume listening, because it has more true balanced connections that I find easy to switch around, but clearly the Levinson sounds best for focused listening. When I really want to rock out, I’ll go for the tube BAT preamp as I am loving the old stock tubes I’ve rolled into it.

For a component that is "supposed to be neutral", "adding nothing", looking at history of threads and posts over the past 15-20 years on this Audiogon site, seeing just how many of the same long-term members here have bought / tried / resold so many different preamplifiers or line stages. Kind of a surprise, actually.

Search for any of the mainstream preamps we all know out there, and you might just find a repeat of comments we see here on this thread.

I tend to believe some folks just like to rotate gear, and you’ll see comments like "I should have never sold that preamp". Isn’t neutral just neutral, well maybe not.

Perhaps that old preamp was that good, adding something more than nothing. :)

 

 

 

I’m trying to refrain from using a term “neutral”. I don’t know if my streamer, DAC, interconnects, cables and components downstream from the source are neutral. There’s just no way for me to possibly know that unless I can A/B what I am hearing at home with what it sounds like in the studio mixed by a recording engineer and played back on thar very same monitoring equipment.
All I can do is describe my ideal sound and tell you if I like a component or not.
Anyone stating Benchmark DACs. Preamps and amps, connected with mogami cables is a neutral setup - I don’t agree with it. But that’s just me.
I don’t mean to pick on Benchmark, but their electronics always sounded analytical and cool to me. Pass and Audio Research for example sound warmer and more to my liking. Does that mean benchmark is not coloring the signal but Pass and ARC components do? Not to me it doesn’t. Anyone saying anything is neutral, I call BS. That’s my take on it. Excuse me for being blunt.
 

It’s a good point above that whenever considering a pre-amp to consider how well it matches to the amp intended for use with it. Impedance matching is key. A high output impedance combined with a low input impedance will always color the sound and add distortion compared to same pre-amp with proper matched amp of higher input impedance. That’s just a fact! If not considered, one is much better off with an integrated amp where the design takes care of that for you. Tube preamps in particular tend to have high output inpedance and properly should be matched to amp of high input impedance, 10kohm or higher to be safe. Otherwise that clean neutral pre-amp goes to waste. Some might like the results still but you better at that point else the only option is change gear and try randomly again. Not an efficient, predictable  nor cost effective way to achieve desired results.

@sameyers1

I assume you’ve found the solid state preamps you’ve tried are more neutral than your tube preamp, with tighter bass, a lower noise floor and perhaps more extended highs.

That’s on the nose. Exactly right. Often, what the tube preamp adds is preferred. But not always -- some recordings benefit from more the SS preamps additional clarity and upper register forthcomingness -- especially orchestral recordings. I like to hear the strings very distinctly, and sometimes this is not coming through with tubes.

Pass XP-12, eh? I’ll keep that in mind and perhaps be able to get one for a while from TMR or a local audiophile.

@mitch2
Fanstastic list! Thank you for taking the time. I’m saving this!
Surprised Bryston never crossed your path.

@jji666

I’m surprised at the lack of focus on the relationship between the preamp and the amp.

I’m assuming that those who have tried multiple preamps are assuming this as part of the evaluation, already, and don’t need to call attention to it. If not, then a lot of opinions here would likely be nullified if, as you’re suggesting, there may very well be a less-than-ideal match between preamp and amp at work.

@hilde45 Ok, since I’m on a roll and correctly assessed the reasons you’re interested in finding a suitable solid state preamp, I will reiterate my recommendation of the Pass Labs XP-12. While it’s their entry level model I found it better than my entry level Ayre K-5emp. It’s a newer design and about double the cost today of what my Ayre cost years ago. But most importantly it is just slightly on the warmer side of neutral, the Pass Labs house sound, and it images better than my Ayre. If you still want a bit of the warmth of tubes, but in a quieter package with more extended highs and tighter bass I think it would be a great fit for your Pass Labs amp, particularly if that amp is your favorite. If your tube Quicksilver amps are your favorite, a more neutral preamp like the Ayre might be better, emphasis on might, but having not listened to your amp/speaker combo I cannot really say. And of course what I found to my liking might not be at all the same as what you like. 
 

So I’m back to encouraging you to audition several in your system before making a final decision. BTW, Moon Audio has a 30-day return policy on new Pass Labs gear. I suspect there are other dealers with the same policy. Return shipping is usually paid by you on a return. 
 

Hope you find what you’re searching for. 

Beyond a volume control and component switching a preamp can help with matching the impedance between the source components and the power amplifier for optimal signal transfer. I think the reason some folks report improvement with a separate preamp is their DAC preamp or power amp are not compatible. Likely the power amp has too low input impedance relative to the DAC  preamp.

 

 

@hilde45 

"Surprised Bryston never crossed your path.''

I always respected Bryston but just never had a good reason to own any of their stuff.  I looked hard at the 28B3 amps for a short time but moved in a different direction.   The thing I always wanted to hear was their speakers, which I suspect may be underrated, but that is just a guess.  Well made gear and a solid company by all accounts.

@decooney “For a component that is "supposed to be neutral", "adding nothing", looking at history of threads and posts over the past 15-20 years…”

You bring up some good empirical evidence that neutral is not what most people are looking for… although they say they are. 
 

@audiophile1 “I’m trying to refrain from using a term “neutral”. I don’t know if my streamer, DAC, interconnects, cables and components downstream from the source are neutral. There’s just no way for me to possibly know that unless I can A/B what I am hearing at home with what it sounds like in the studio mixed…” 

Good point, but.

There is a way to determine neutral. And it is by becoming intimately familiar with acoustic music in multiple venues. I started my quest a couple decades ago when frustrated that improving one genera would make others sound worse. Over ten years with season tickets to the symphony  (7th row  center) and dozens of acoustical jazz and individual instrument concerts I was quite startled to realize what real music and venues sound like. While there are some characteristics of rock concerts that translates to a system most do not. 
 

When I listen to most systems now they do not sound neutral at all. They are often overly detailed… high lighted details that while interesting makes the venue, miking, mixing, or certain instruments stand out. When cymbals sound like solo instruments, or a triangle grabs your attention then that is not neutral.
 

Bass in natural environments is very nuanced… not slam. My earlier concerns about slam is that the fast slap of bass is not real… in the real world symphonies or rock concerts it is a slower wave with nuanced details. Solid state amps tend to be really good at exceptionally fast rise times and over slap. Now I have realized that even really powerful ones tend to run out of power and therefore do not follow through with the detail.. the articulation of the different frequencies and nuances as the bass arrives. This is something tube amps do well, they reproduce the overall bass experience and nuance well, not pardon the phrase “shooting their load of electrons” on the first wave. Or, at least this is my current theory.

Ok, I could go on and on. But I think neutral is actually the objective of few companies and customers. It is what sounds better to them, which is often hearing things they have not heard before or accentuated instruments or frequencies.   But there are companies and folks that are out to reproduce music as it occurs in the real world.

 

@ghdprentice correct! If you look at my post listing the qualities I look for in a preamp, you will see that we’re on the same page. Your last paragraph pretty much echos what I stated and sums it up. 

@sameyers1 

"Pass Labs XP-12…is just slightly on the warmer side of neutral, the Pass Labs house sound, and it images better than my Ayre." 

Ok, now we have a targeting lock! Thank you -- this is up to the top of my list. Thank you!

@skinzy 

"the reason some folks report improvement with a separate preamp is their DAC preamp or power amp are not compatible"

That invalidates their comments, unfortunately! 

@ghdprentice 

"There is a way to determine neutral. And it is by becoming intimately familiar with acoustic music in multiple venues."

That sets a benchmark for those sorts of concerts; but does it do for mixed, PA-driven live music, EDM, etc. what it does for acoustic music concerts?

That said, I've been to many acoustic concerts where the location I was sitting or the hall itself made the mix of sound pretty bad. I have sat there thinking, "I wish this was playing on my rig."

I think the problem is with using the term “neutral” as if it’s a fixed and definitive thing when in reality it’s a moving target based on each individual listener. Unless you’ve made a recording yourself, let’s face it, there’s no way for any of us to define what neutral truly is. In that way it’s kind of a waste of time and a fool’s errand to even talk about neutrality because it’s like trying to catch a greased chicken. What I think sounds neutral might sound colored to you and vice versa, and neither of us would be wrong in the context of our own hearing and tastes. And the basic fact is that neither of us knows what the actual performance sounded like or what the final mixed version should sound like because we’re not the recording engineer. Personally, I’d rather focus on what sounds “natural” — natural meaning nothing sticks out and everything comes together and sounds balanced and effortless like real music and, most importantly, just sounds “right.” THAT, to me, is the best “neutral” we can achieve, and everyone needs to define that inherently indefinable neutrality for themselves. I think this is a big part of the art — and wonderful, awful struggle— of ultimately putting together a great-sounding system. But that’s just me.

"Neutral" as compared to what?

Who set the industry standard baseline reference as to what neutral really is. 

This is the funnest and funniest part of the whole (hole) discussion. 🤣 

 

@decooney @soix 👍
 

exactly why we  ( some of us ) and in industry make own reference recordings and or sponsor same…..

coloration starts with microphone selection and placement…..

yes…there are a few companies chasing accurate…..

but frequent doses of live unamplified music in varied reverberant spaces in a variety of genres will do wonders in your search for…… ? 

OP…”That sets a benchmark for those sorts of concerts; but does it do for mixed, PA-driven live music, EDM, etc. what it does for acoustic music concerts?”

 

Actually, if you think about it, by having a true reference for your system vs the real acoustic world… then you have calibrated your system for all music…and it is going to be correctly interpreting music of any genre.  Then if it was mastered incorrectly… well, it was mastered with a bias. 
 

To get amplified / studio music correct, you would have to reproduce the same electronics / speaker system they were mastered on… and it would only be good for that studio. 
 

 

@hilde45 I hope you're able to audition the XP-12. You and I seem to have somewhat similar listening preferences. You mentioned violins as a benchmark and how your tube preamp leaves you wanting more detail and leaves you thinking you're missing some of the top end. I find the same is true when listening to an acoustic guitar with some, not all, tube preamps. And acoustic music, with no amplification and in a great venue, is a great yardstick to use in testing gear. I use a solo acoustic guitar recording, a solo piano recording, both jazz and classical, as well as big bands and symphonic works when I try out gear.

A number of people who posted comments have dissed the concept of neutral. A simple view of neutral is that a device (preamp, amp, dac, speaker, cables, whatever) does nothing to change the recording. It's not complicated. It's why people with high quality gear note that if a recording is poor in quality, or vinyl is poorly pressed, they hear all the defects in the recording. It all gets passed through by their gear. The gear provides a very high level of detail and accuracy to the recording. The frequency response is flat, with no emphasis on any frequency. Audible distortion and noise are virtually non-existent. The device plays back a signal that is true to the recording. To me it's much easier to accomplish this with electronics than it is with speakers or your listening room.

What matters is what sounds best to you, me or any individual. Our listening rooms introduce anomalies, distortion, reflections, etc. Our hearing does the same. So we can start with great gear and still end up with issues. But the concept of neutral is not complicated. And not everyone likes what I've called neutral. There is a large following on this forum of folks who love the "warmer" sound of some tube gear. I respect that and understand why, as I own a tube phono stage and a tube amp, the latter in a secondary system. But that "warmer" sound is typically not neutral, with an emphasis on the midrange.

Everyone should just respect that we each have preferences as to what sounds best. And as others have noted, it is important to consider the compatibility of one piece with another. It's one reason why I think the Pass Labs XP-12 would be a great match for your Pass Labs amp. Pass designs its gear to work together, with preamp output characteristics compatible with their amps' input.

Hope you find the solution you're seeking.

 

 

 

@sameyers1 "A number of people who posted comments have dissed the concept of neutral. A simple view of neutral is that a device (preamp, amp, dac, speaker, cables, whatever) does nothing to change the recording. It’s not complicated"...

 

Following your lead, here is a simple view and question, and not too complicated. The XP12, XP22, XP33, each sounds different. And for some audiophiles, the next version is better than the last, and so they upgrade and sell the prior version.

-or- If anyone else cares to respond, feel free to chime in -

Are the earlier versions less neutral than current versions, and what makes the latest versions of Pass Labs preamplifiers more neutral, or better, or different enough to want to make the next-level-up upgrade?

 

 

A number of people who posted comments have dissed the concept of neutral. A simple view of neutral is that a device (preamp, amp, dac, speaker, cables, whatever) does nothing to change the recording. It’s not complicated.

@sameyers1 Oh but it absolutely IS complicated. You don’t know what the original recording sounds like any more than I do. For you to say YOU know what’s neutral is your — and ONLY your — opinion and not based on objective fact at all unless you have the recording engineer sitting in the room with you. Who the hell are you to say to anyone else what’s neutral? It’s just your interpretation based on your ears and taste and nothing more and is not translatable to anyone else. To say that you know what neutral is better than anyone else is just arrogant and silly IMHO.

@soix Ditto!  👍👍

Audionet makes the best preamps in solid state I heard full stop!

Mola Mola good too.

@soix I never said I knew better than anyone else, you did. I never said my statements were objective fact, you did. I made a point of saying everyone has their preferences and prefer different gear. And objective fact is what exactly? Some people on this forum downplay the value of testing equipment using measurement gear. I can understand that, as measurements don’t tell the whole story in my experience. My ears are my reference measuring device. So what is objective fact? In listening to music it’s mostly subjective I think. 
 

You’re right that I don’t know exactly what the original recording sounds like. I wasn’t in the studio or at the venue. But I do know what a piano should sound like. i’ve played one for decades. It’s why I listen to solo piano recordings and solo acoustic guitar recordings, as I know what those instruments sound like quite well, Yes my piano in my room sounds somewhat different from another piano in a different room. But it is the best frame of reference I can have to know if a piece of gear sounds true. The OP uses a violin to evaluate gear for the same reason. Perhaps I should have said that a simplistic view of neutral is that the gear is true  the sound of the instruments. 
 

When I audition gear I use recordings I know well that I find to be true to the sounds of the instruments I know. I can hear a loose/flabby bass, a bloated midrange, a lack of treble extension. It’s similar to what people do every day when they tune their guitar or flute or clarinet. And I compare the gear in my home to what I own. It’s not perfect, but again it’s the best anyone can do I think.

Everything on the forum is opinion and based on individual experiences. You can say I’m arrogant. I can say you’d do better to not to get angry and recognize everyone’s right to post their thoughts and find a respectful way to disagree. I hope you can accept my response in the spirit in which it is offered, as a further explanation of how I characterize neutral. 

Acoustic Research ’sound’!

Any vintage: suppose seller says ’everything works! all new tubes!

My friend just bought a new to him Vintage Acoustic Research Tube Preamp, to replace his slightly older Acoustic Research Tube Preamp. He put new tubes in the existing unit, everything works, Acoustic Research ’sound’ right?

I went over, we did a few hours of comparative listening. The new to him unit was clearly superior, the existing unit’s sound much less focused, even wandered while listening to great Mono LPs, newer unit simply wonderful.

Some innards of the older unit ’work’, but not like they should, and if that was your first Acoustic Research listen, you would probably walk away, thinking Acoustic Research ’sound’ was not for you, and perhaps post negative comments here based on that single experience.

I do not believe in ’generalizations’.

btw, I ended up with so much more respect for his speakers after listening thru the newer Vintage AR preamp. What a difference.

I have nothing but good things about his AR Preamp/Amp combo's sound.

@soix 

"...everyone needs to define that inherently indefinable neutrality for themselves. I think this is a big part of the art — and wonderful, awful struggle— of ultimately putting together a great-sounding system." 

Great point.  The "struggle" part comes in when people chase some sort of holy grail of sound by constantly "upgrading" to equipment that others report to deliver "neutral" sound, when instead, they should simply trust their own ears and stick with the gear that sounds the most "natural" (i.e., good) to them.

@decooney I have only auditioned the XP-12 in my home and can’t speak to the characteristics of the higher end or older Pass models. 
 

i agree with your observation that people sometimes upgrade only to wish they hadn’t sold or given away a piece of gear. Some folks on this forum post of having repurchased a piece they’d had before. 
 

Many of us get upgraditis. I’ve auditioned gear in my home that I thought sounded better only to find I couldn’t justify the additional cost for the incremental improvement. In one instance a dealer loaned me an excellent Luxman amp. I brought it hone and it sounded great until I put on a large symphonic piece and it couldn’t handle the power requirements of the transients and started audibly clipping! The dealer concluded it was likely because of the 86 dB efficiency of my 4 ohm speakers that drop to 3 ohms at some frequencies. It’s just another reason to audition gear in your home with your other equipment. 
 

 

@sameyers1 response to socks

Everything on the forum is opinion and based on individual experiences. You can say I’m arrogant. I can say you’d do better to not to get angry and recognize everyone’s right to post their thoughts and find a respectful way to disagree. I hope you can accept my response in the spirit in which it is offered, as a further explanation of how I characterize neutral.

You are much, much too nice.

Neutrality is an acoustics concept BEFORE being used in gear design...

The sound experience is an acoustics experience first and last....

There is too much variations in price levels and needs and synergetical variations to define a rule valuable for all systems,speaking about preamplifications...

People as usual gave their take on the branded named preamplification of choice... Why not ?

But it will be acoustics knowledge ( not only room acoustic) that will matter as much as gear synergy if you have a budget...

 

 

What qualities stand out in really good solid state preamps?

in my book for solid state pre’s is that they first and foremost do not damage the music signal going through them

then it would be the ability to adjust and maintain volume level by each input (to allow useful a/b comparisons)

Intially looking for preamp I was thinking features on board dac etc, but then I figured you can't beat a separate preamp and dac from a purist stand point.  I liked the Mcintosh C53 and the Classe' Delta preamp when it came to features.  Then I decided I need simple but high performance and quality, basically inputs and the best volume control of the signal is what I want.  I narrowed it down to a used Pass Labs X-12, Ayre KX-5emp and an Ayre KX-5 Twenty, with the latter being much more even if I could find a used one.  I found one and stretched to purchase the Ayre KX-5 Twenty.  It's solid, the resolution at lower volumes is phenomenal and it's very dynamic and yet flat across the spectrum.  Very detailed and airy, I definetly can tell it's a quality component.  

I didn't do any demo, rolled the dice when I bought it thinking mainly cost is relavent to performance.  With some preamps it's the features, I was just looking for the best I could afford that controls the volume between the source and the amp.  The Ayre KX-5 Twenty delivers that performance I was looking for but there's plenty others that compete.  As we all know, it's how deep you pockets can go in this hobby, the more you spend the more you'll hear in the sound.  I wish I could afford a Ayre KX-R Twenty preamp, but that's the price of putting a decent vehicle in the driveway..

 

@sameyers1 decooney I have only auditioned the XP-12 in my home and can’t speak to the characteristics of the higher end or older Pass models.

i agree with your observation that people sometimes upgrade only to wish they hadn’t sold or given away a piece of gear. Some folks on this forum post of having repurchased a piece they’d had before.

 

So true, being near Pass Labs 30m away, lots of it around here - I’ve also helped a few even try and buy a few different cables and sources and dacs instead of getting on the upgrade merry-go-round, to then see those same people jump again to nice tube preamps. I needed confirmation from the man myself that my own 6SN7 preamp would be a decent match for an upcoming Pass/Forte’ mod project I was planning. I chatted some with Nelson about this 4-5 years back, and the following year he came out with the NuTube Korg kit for those who wanted to try something else. It might be fun to find out if the XP12 could be modded some, trying that, or this, as another approach fwtw. Just batting around some other ideas.

 

I am a big fan of Schitt gear. My second headphone stack is Schitt based as is my main DAC for 2-channel. However, the Schitt SYS is not one of their better efforts. It is not a clean window into the music. Less is less in this case. I have my SYS gathering dust in a box somewhere.

@sameyers1 and @decooney 

I had XP-12 for a while before moving up to XP-22. The 12 is a great preamp and gives you a good dose of that natural, warm and extended Pass sound. I had it paired with XA30.8 driving Wilson Sabrina. Upgrading to XP-22 was a good step up though. By no means it’s a night and day difference because the XP-12 is already very good. But there are few major differences mostly due to the separate isolated and beefed up power supply. You get lower noise floor that allows more subtle details to come thru and become more apparent rather than being buried into the mix, better overall clarity, more authority and texture in the bass and bigger, more solid imaging with better instrument separation.
It retains the Pass Labs natural, extended and warm sound signature and the better details it conveys are never in your face. My next upgrade was going from XA30.8 to X260.8. The XP-22 scaled up no issues. 
I’m not a fan of a two box solution but I’m willing to deal with it given the sonic ROI you get. 
 

Here’s XP12 :

 

and the XP-22 for comparison:

 

 

@audphile1 Kudos on your upgrades. I wish they were within my budget.

Do you think the Pass XP-12 is a good fit for the OP, @hilde45 and his Pass Xa-25?

 

I recommended the XP-12 to @hilde45 in his other discussion. It’s an easy recommendation and synergy with XA25 isn’t even a conversation. But it all depends on the objective and what you’re trying to do. 

@ghdprentice

Good point about calibrating to live music. I suppose that would establish a correlation that could transcend categories. Well put.

Of course, a lot of amplified/studio music should NOT be gotten "correct" because they are compressing and shaping the sound so it pleases and grabs attention when played of mass market headphones, cars, etc. One does NOT want to hear the original. Like a bad casserole, if it’s not corrected somehow, it’s barely edible.
Here’s a pretty tendentious but convincing view on this: https://youtu.be/j_sa915TD-o?si=tOXaeeZvglEhpdAi

The point is that "being in the studio" is kind of meaningless, because they are making stuff to be played by others. The chef cooks food that most customers will like, not what she thinks is "true" or "best."

@sameyers1
Knowing how the XP-12 performs, especially with my XA-25 would be revealing.
I have heard neutrality with a very good passive autoformer. I didn’t like it. Lifelessness -- in that system. Now that I have a DAC with more voltage output, I might try that again. A friend with the Bent/Tap X is done with preamps. he loves it. After 30 years, that’s all he wants in a preamp.

As for "warmer", I can imagine people stuck in a room they cannot measure or tweak with treatments liking a "warmer" sound because it actually helps with some of the tonality deficits produced by their room. Without controls on these comments, there’s no way to really know whether we’re talking about the same perceptual effect. And that’s *prior* to problems we would have with interpretation of these words!

Neutrality is also problematized by our varying physiology.

To comment a bit more -- not about anyone’s comment in particular -- I ask myself, What’s the pragmatic upshot of neutrality? It cannot mean some objective "getting back to the original recording," not least because we'd never be able to confirm we had done so, and most importantly because the original recording is just prime matter which is yet to take on the forms imposed by its varying instantiations (in people's varying gear, ears, rooms, tastes, etc.

Still, we can practically know when something has been added. If I eat a burger covered with black pepper, I would know that’s not neutral. This was ghdprentice's point, I think. One has various baselines and they can notice when there's "something added" vs. "baseline." Objectivity is a pragmatic concept, not a metaphysical one.

@gfguillot
"the more you spend the more you’ll hear in the sound."
Having connected with audiophiles with an eye for small makers and DIY, I’d say the more you KNOW the more you’ll hear in the sound. (And sometimes you know you need to spend more!)

As for "warmer", I can imagine people stuck in a room they cannot measure or tweak with treatments liking a "warmer" sound because it actually helps with some of the tonality deficits produced by their room. Without controls on these comments, there’s no way to really know whether we’re talking about the same perceptual effect. And that’s *prior* to problems we would have with interpretation of these words!
 

Appears as if you have already interpreted and perceived what is meant by these words. 

What do you look for in a preamp @hilde45 

@hilde45 please remind me which active preamp you are currently using and whether or not your new DAC has a volume control.  If it does, have you tried running it straight into your amp (make sure you significantly lower the volume!) and noted what you gained or lost compared to having the preamp in the system?  I apologize if you already did this.

@audphile1  "Appears as if you have already interpreted and perceived what is meant by these words."

The word "warmer" seems more definite than the word "neutral," and that's what I was getting at. Much of the debate here seems to be about "neutral." 

   @jc4659  My current active preamp is a loaner, one built around a burson audio buffer. I am not sure my Holoa Audio spring can be run straight into my amp, but that's an interesting suggestion!

Again, my main thrus in this thread is to gather vocabulary for SS preamp differences.

@hilde45 Thanks, I think I saw on another forum that you owned a deHavilland pre.

This whole neutrality thing seems to have discussions going around in circles. My use of the term was more restricted to having the opportunity to listen to music with and without a preamp in the path, all other parts being the same. A DAC with a volume control is one way to do this. It can show you how the preamp may be contributing to the overall sound or if it is not changing it at all.  Absolute neutrality seems impossible to ascertain since you would need to have the live recording event as a reference. After that, the sound we hear from our systems is guaranteed to be different. It gets "seasoned" by engineers, mixing/recording equipment, and playback gear including acoustic space.

When I remove my solid state preamp I like what I hear; just trying to decide what kind of seasoning, if any, I might want to add. It's a subjective thing for sure but for me it's both visceral and emotional. I know it when I hear it.  The objective attributes I look for have been mentioned by others above.  My reference will always be real people playing real instruments in a real space.