I believe that a cartridge and a speaker, by far, contribute the most to SQ.
The two transducers in a system.
I bit the bulllet and bought a Lyra Atlas SL for $13K for my Woodsong Garrard 301 with Triplanar SE arm. I use a full function Atma-Sphere MP-1 preamp. My $60K front end. It is certainly, by far, the best I have owned. I read so many comments exclaiming that Lyra as among the best. I had to wait 6 months to get it. But the improvement over my excellent $3K Mayijima Shilabi was spectacular-putting it mildly.
I recently heard a demo of much more pricy system using a $25K cartridge. Seemed to be the most expensive cartridge made. Don’t recall the name.
For sure, the amount of detail was something I never heard. To hear a timpani sound like the real thing was incredible. And so much more!
This got me thinking of what could be possible with a different kind of cartridge than a moving coil. That is, a moving iron.
I have heard so much about the late Decca London Reference. A MI and a very different take from a MC. Could it be better? The World’s Best? No longer made.
However Grado has been making MI cartridges for decades. Even though they hold the patent for the MC. Recently, Grado came out with their assault on “The World’s Best”. At least their best effort. At $12K the Epoch 3. I bought one and have been using it now for about two weeks replacing my Lyra. There is no question that the Atlas SL is a fabulous cartridge. But the Epoch is even better. Overall, it’s SQ is the closest to real I have heard. To begin, putting the stylus down on the run in grove there is dead silence. As well as the groves between cuts. This silence is indicative of the purity of the music content. Everything I have read about it is true. IME, the comment of one reviewer, “The World’s Best”, may be true.
I know I'm 1-2 thousand hours from the Deccapocalypse. I'm already thinking about what might come after. Having spent money on a Grado Statement 3 I don't think there's a future there for me. The other game in town is Soundsmith. Reviews are rather sparse, especially of recent versions. I'd love to hear from anyone who owns The Voice MkII, Paua MKII, Sussurro MkII, Hyperion or the strain gauge.
Using the Quad 24p (designed by Tim deParavicini) I can deal with low output cartridges (Paua and up) but the MC input has a fixed impedance of 10Ω, and ≥470Ω is recommended. Obviously, no issue if I go as far as the strain gauge with its own energiser/preamp. If The Voice MkII would make a Decca owner happy, there would be no issue as the 24p's MM input is 47kΩ. There's just no possibility of hearing these before purchase in Nova Scotia, even if I were allowed to leave the house (I'm not: recent bone marrow transplant and little immunity).
One more thing about field coil cartridges--the Audio Note cartridge got quite hot; I did not dare to touch the Denon 103 modified to be a field coil cartridge, so I don't know if it too gets hot.
There are other somewhat exotic designs out there that I've heard, although it has been quite a few years since hearing some of them. I thought that the field effect transistor cartridge was interesting in design, and it sounded pretty good. This cartridge uses a permanently charged electret attached to the cantilever as the gate element in a field effect transistor. This cartridge required a power supply and wiring to feed juice to the cartridge.
Recently, I heard the Audio Technica ART 1000 cartridge which has two small loops of wire fixed to a tiny plate that attaches to the cantilever immediately behind the stylus. That plate, with its tiny coils fit into a magnetic gap placed extremely close to the stylus. I liked the sound of this cartridge--it was lively and engaging while not being thin and analytical as some other "fast" sounding cartridges. I don't know where it would fit in anyone's "best" ranking, but, it is, in my opinion, a very good cartridge.
I try to understand the premise or assertion on which the ''conclusions '' are
based' . Those are called in logic and mathematics ''universal quantors''.
Those are in contra dsistinction with ''numerical''. Numerical name the numbers
of ''indicviduals'' involved while ''universal'' don't;
The formula e for universal kinds is:
''for all x Fx & Gx''
'There are exacltly 100.000 members of A'gon forum.'' is the numerical.
One of Tarski's '''theories of thruth'' is called 'truth by satisfaction''..
In the formula above this means that all members of set ''x'' satisfy
conditions F and G. If there is one contra example or ''one x'' which does
not satisfay both F and G condiions the (general) statement is NOT TRUE.
''All '' is not a name with refering function so we can't know to what ''it''
refers to. In writeing an statement with ''all '' in the ''subject place'' we
only assumet to to have said something sensible .
That is why numerical quantors explain ''universal''. because we know
the number of individuals to which ''it'' refers.
European commission decided that ''all immigrants'' have te right foir asylum procedure''. But each country has laws which determine condition which
''asylum immigrants'' NEED to satisfy to get an Asylum. The most do not
satisfy those conditions and will not get one. Well the (whole) European commission had no idea what ''all'' means so Europe got immigrants from ''everywhere''. The whole Africa in addition to Syria. Holland for example
has no place to put them.. While there is no possibility to return them
to their countires because those will not accept them back.
I hope that the ''SENSE'' of the question iin casu is well explained?
The problem with High End is the price tag. All think, the higher the price, the better it is.
Analog reproduction is a chain, the best cartridge can’t shine when the phono stage is not on par, same with Tonearm, cable, Preamp and so on and on
and finally, the old story… 3 Audiophiles listen … 3 opinions …
or, let’s be honest, imagine there is really the best cartridge out there BUT RSP would be 2500$ … do you really think, the audiophile community would accept it ?
I don’t think so
I’ve been listening to the DaVa FC-1 (the lower-range model vs the Reference that MikeL has) for several months now. I bought it used with both SS and tubed power supplies and hadn’t bothered listening to the SS one until I saw this thread.
After a quick comparison, the difference is pretty obvious. The SS has more impact, the tubed more nuance, subtlety (though with still very saturated transients--not pulling punches in the least).
Also about this cart, in addition to having field coil magnets, it has a cactus quill cantilever, a conical stylus and I believe like the AT ART1000, the coil is attached very close to the stylus.
"You would have to be out of your mind to buy a Decca cartridge."
I'll just sit here and drool and twitch!
If you are talking about supposed tracking issues, I have to say I have never had any such problems with either the undamped SME M10 or the damped Series V. I will admit they increase surface noise, and that has inspired me to become fanatical about record cleaning (and that's a good idea anyway as you cannot clean the stylus with anything other than a dry brush). If I outlive my Deccas, the plan is to get a Soundsmith strain gauge as a replacement, unless someone swoops in to continue the business.
Dear @mikelavigne : I think that my misunderstood came from what you posted:
" the tubed power supply sounds better than a solid state power supply "
Than's for your last post where appeared not one but 3 different tube power suplies with no SS one.
Btw, " projects lots of energy and life. " :
Obviously that exist different levels but those DaVa characteristics you named are shared by cantilever-less cartridge designs as the Ikeda REX9 and others.
There is no doubt that cartridge field coil design means a " different " quality level than other cartridge design principles ( motor. ) but the DaVa comes with 2 different " principles ": catilever-less and field coil. How much for one and how much of that quality for the other. Yes, at the ends only is important its overall quality level but ??....
The field coil principle can't recovery what the DaVa design cantilever-less can't pick-up from the LP grooves due that it is not ( no one cantilever-less is. ) good tracker.
Taking in count those facts could be interesting that an Audio Note I/O LOMC owner that along owns the I/O field coil could chime here on it because both cartridges are the same but the generator variable.
There are many fine sounding cartridges out there but there are certain criteria that to my way of thinking have to be met before considering the sonic characteristics of a cartridge. The first and most important is tracking ability. If a cartridge can not track everything I throw at it it is worthless to me. A cartridge has to track better than 80um or I am not interested. Thus, the Etsuro Gold is not a cartridge I would ever look at and I have just spent $35,000 on cartridges meaning it is not a financial issue. From a technical perspective the new MC Diamond is going to be a more accurate performer and it can handle 80 um. Technology trumps artisanship when it comes to phonograph cartridges but, you have to understand the Japanese mentality when it comes to issues like cutting blades and phonograph cartridges which are endowed with the unique spirit of their creator. It is spiritual.
The next important issue is the stylus. It has to be a fine line design of the highest quality. Each type of stylus has significant variations in quality even within the same manufacturer. I am beginning to think from what I have seen so far is that the styluses of the more expensive cartridges are hand selected. The better styluses with a larger contact patch are the ones that are really quiet because they glide over small imperfections other styluses with smaller contact patches fall into.
What I find more interesting is how much these cartridges actually sound alike than different.
You would have to be out of your mind to buy a Decca cartridge. They are not very popular for a good reason.
There is only one accurate. Everything else is not, euphonic or not.
On the Grado Epoch 3... How the hell does a $13K cartridge have an elliptical stylus? At least give me a microline or similar. Can you imagine shelling 13K for a cart and hearing IGD? That would hurt. On topic, there is no best cartridge, like there is not best speaker. Depends on one's system and ears. At the ultra high end cartridge level, one should expect very wide channel separation (at least 35dB plus), superb tracking and very wide frequency response at the very least. The OP's Atlas has that. It's all personal preference at any level, but one wouldn't expect a spherical, conical, or elliptical stylus on a cartridge at the uber high level.
ok, maybe you have not understood my answers about the power supply for the DaVa cartridge.🙄
here is the messgae the DaVa builder, Darius, sent me in January regarding the power supply choices. i went with the 1500 euro choice. plus 6000 euro for the cartridge, plus, as i recall, 400 euro for shipping,
The standard SS Psu is included in the price. I offer some more:1. The tube Psu in black metal box with PI 82 small tubes - 1300 Eur. 2. The tube Psu with big EY 500 tubes in closed metal black box - 1500 Eur. 3. The artisan wooden Psu with big open tubes - 1800 Eur.
Dear @lewm : You are rigth: only smooth DC. So, in the worst case has not to be a difference with that cartridge but @mikelavigne not yet share with us if that DaVa comes with the choice of both power supplies.
Yeah, $12k cartridge would normally mean $100k front end, including phono stage, tonearm cable and power cords. So it's $250k-$300k for the entire system. Hell, you can still buy a house for this kind of money. Sorry, couldn't help it.
Regarding field coil ps variables @atmaspherehas posted in the topic. Maybe he can help us here
I doubt it. I'd be very concerned about adding the wires needed to power the field coil. They would have to stiffen up the arm since they would have to travel past/thru its bearings. That would introduce a variable that might not be taken into account when making assessments.
Curious on everyones experience regarding cartridge break-in? Over my 40 yrs of listening to a few dozen different cartridges most have taken, on average, 10-15 hrs. I just received a MSL and I'm at 18 hrs and finally it's just starting to "sing". I'm told it requires closer to 50 hrs to be fully broken-in. Your experience?
i hate to reduce things to dollars as a justification. lots of vintage tt’s that are very capable have more reasonable acquisition costs.
my three tt’s are not cheap. the CS Port LFT1 including the linear tracking arm is currently listing around $55k. my Saskia lists at $54k with one arm board. i have 7 arm boards. my Wave Kinetics NVS tt lists at $50k. two of my tone arms are the $15k Durand Tosca. one is my new $28k Primary Control FCL.
the point is that it does take a certain level of turntable to enable arms and cartridges to not be held back. i’ve owned the NVS for 11 years. i bought the CS Port new 4 years ago, and the Saskia used 4 years ago. so these are part of a long term plan of system building. i wanted to have a great direct drive tt, belt driven tt, and idler tt to enjoy each drive type at a high level.
Maybe, but I know some people with Thorens 124 or Garrard 301 or 401 tables and top Koetsus. A local dealer put together a $1.5 million system with a reconditioned 124 and Koetsu Blue Lace.
Just a rhetorical question. If you are buying 15k, 20k or even a 30k cartridge I'm assuming you already have a 40k, 50k, 75k turntable and maybe a 20k plus tonearm? Not to mention the price of a phono stage and the associated cables.
On several occasions I heard A system I am familiar with that had a replacement solid state power supply in it while it’s regular tungar tube power supply was being worked on or was out on loan to someone else. Both times I commented on the sound being “off” when I didn’t even know that the solid state supply was being used. In a different system, a friend of mine tried his Feastrix solid state power supply in place of another tungar supply, for a direct comparison, and again the tube supply was superior. The drivers that were involved were Western Electric 555 midrange compression drivers. It is a mystery to me why there should be much of a difference, one way or the other because in these instances, the supply is only being asked to deliver 24 volts dc.
after a few more days listening to the DaVa Reference, my ears tell me that this cartridge plays at the very tip top of cartridge performance. can’t comment on other field coil cartridge efforts, this one is the real deal and a serious effort.
whether you believe in a tubed power supply or a solid state power supply is not the issue here (a $1500 to $2000 price difference).
i know how it stacks up against my own references, a friend has the top level DS Audio Master One, and has also had the Grand Master. he says the DaVa Reference is looking those level in the eye (at 1/3rd to 1/6th the price) and he is very impressed.
there is a 6 month wait time right now to get one.
Since a power supply for a coil in a field coil cartridge only has to produce smooth DC, I think, what after all is the difference between a tube power supply and a solid-state power supply for such a device? Is it merely the use of tube rectification? And I guess probably there would be voltage regulation, also done with tubes versus transistors.
Dear @larryi "" My experience with field coils is more in the way of speakers, and I have heard several systems with both a solid state and a tube power supply for the magnets. I was frankly shocked, and somewhat disappointed, that the tube power supply sounded considerably better. ""
ASre you telling that the same field coil speakers that you listened came with both different power supply designs as an owner choice good alternative?
I posted almost the same question to @mikelavigne about the DaVa cartridge Reference and now that I did a little research on the DaVa seems to me that comes with tube power supply only, noth both kind of power supply but ML is an owner a he knows better on that cartridge regards.
Wow, lots of different subjects being covered here, and all of them are interesting. For the matter of using Quad 57 speakers, I personally like them, regardless of their shortcomings. I've heard the Dave Slagle stacked Quads and dedicated tube amps, including a setup that used two stacks of two per channel (four 57's per channel). I liked the two 57 per channel setup, but, there were other Quad 57 fans who actually preferred a simple pair of Quad 57s over any stacked array. Again, it is a matter of personal preference.
The only field coil cartridges I have heard are the Audio Note cartridge and a Denon 103 that Dave Slagle modified to use field coil magnets. Both are very lively sounding cartridges. My experience with field coils is more in the way of speakers, and I have heard several systems with both a solid state and a tube power supply for the magnets. I was frankly shocked, and somewhat disappointed, that the tube power supply sounded considerably better. I was disappointed because a solid state power supply would be much more convenient--less heat, no concern over tube replacement, and much better voltage stability (the tube supply changed voltage as everything warmed up, and it required more adjustment to maintain optimal sound).
Dear @mikelavigne : I was not aware that the DaVa carrtridges are on sale where the buyers can select the kind of power supply they want: tube or the other design and maybe you did not have the opportunity to listed that cartridge with both manufacturer PS and followed that second hand feedbak from other owners that had the chance to listen both power supply with the DaVa Reference. Good, I will google the cartridge.
As I said a different cartridge design principle always is welcomed even if maybe I will not have the opportunity to listen it.
I have always loved the koetsu rosewood signature but with a large budget I would have a listen to some of the stone body ones. You get down to decide a cartridge or new car for the same money. I think the top stone body is over 30000 at the present time.
I really LOVE my Lyra Atlas SL with my P1 and X1 combination. I also like MysonicLabs where I have to bump up the gain a bit. I feel that getting a cartridge that matches the phono stage is important as some low output carts cannot show their true colors without appropriate phono stage, ground control clean power etc...
I wonder how you know that other way that the manufacturer has both power supply kind of designs and if not then from where came your statement ? ! ? !.
@rauliruegasfair enough, my source is second hand feedback from other users. did not have the solid state PS on hand myself. if the tubed power supply is distorted, i love distortion like that.
no; the Neumann DST is not a field coil design. it has no separate power supply. i’m told ideally you use a special SUT for it.
dAER @mikelavigne : "" the tubed power supply sounds better than a solid state power supply. and fits the character . ""
I wonder how you know that other way that the manufacturer has both power supply kind of designs and if not then from where came your statement ? ! ? !.
I can't remember if the DST is a field coil cartridge design and never listen it in my system but in other system and is a good carrtridge but not something to " die for ".
Different cartridge kind of designs have its own trade offs and in this thread @mglik
prefered the Grado over a top LOMC cartridge.
Even that, your statement needs an explanation and certainly been appreciated but we all audiophiles because that is a new cartridge and a new audio experiences with.
as far as the performance of the DaVa Reference field coil cartridge with the tubed power supply.....it reminds me of what i heard from the Neumann DST.....but with more top and bottom extension. textures on top of textures, and tonality that is superb. projects lots of energy and life.
the tubed power supply sounds better than a solid state power supply. and fits the character of the DaVa.
Dear @lalitk : DaVa Reference, something to consider down the road ".
Well the field coil ( electro magnetically. ) cartridges is an example that not only audiophiles as us make our room/system choices along its trade-offs/compromises that are the " best " for each one of us but that manufacturers always do it.
Audio Note field coil cartridge comes with cantilever against the DaVa cantilever-less design but not only that DaVa choosed a tube power supply ( that has no sense to me. ) with all the " artefacts " surrounded tubes as some kind level of microphonics or development of some kind of noise/hum against the design Audio NOTE power supply in its cartridge that looks really good:
Which cartridge performs better well it’s the same question of the OP in this thread: different trade-offs. Cantilever-less has " immediacy " in the kind of sound ( something as horn drivers. ) but with a penalty that’s that are not very good trackers and due to this fact can’t pick up all the grooves information. I owned the Ikeda cantilever-less model and that’s why I know that.
Anyway, a field coil cartridge design s welcomed. Is it better? only each owner can tell it. The cartridges looks the same but only difference at sigth are the 6 pins cartridge connectors instead the normal 4 output pins connectors.
Btw, Audio Note manufacture too field coil speaker drivers.
Doggie, was joking about having a fragile ego. If you read about Nagaoka cartridges on Raul’s MM thread, the MP50 and 500 were very often referred to as MM types or else without specifying the transducer type. I guess that’s where I picked up my idea that they’re MMs. Right now listening to Monk on Riverside, via my B&O MMC20CL, another great MI cartridge.
In the assault of the high end I think there are at least two or three value camps. One would be high resolution and another maybe natural / musical and forgiving. You could probably come up with a couple more.
But I get what Mike is asking… there are a few extraordinarily cartridges out there that satisfy some end groups desires.
Appreciate your confirmation, I don’t doubt at all that Etsuro Gold would be a wonderful addition to my analog rig. Thank you for sharing your early thoughts on DaVa Reference, something to consider down the road :-)
I never did get to hear an ESL57, but did the 63, and owned 989s and now have 2905s. I probably don't get the purity of the midrange that the 57s give, but if it's being overlaid by a bit of bass I can live with it!
BTW, I hope your ego is a lot less fragile than you pretend! We all learn new things - I had not come across the cantilever-less Ikeda MC cartridges until I read this thread. I see if I want to risk a couple of thousand dollars on eBay I can try one out, but I'm not so brave or foolish as to do that.
If you think the Quad57 is inherently limited, you ought to hear 2 or 3 pairs that have been modified by Dave Slagle and direct driven in unison by a pair of his amplifiers. Plus or minus a subwoofer. To die for.
Hi Mike,
Thanks for the invite. We have communicated before.
I have a friend in Seattle and would very much like to experience your system.
Have to admit that I, as many, also hear with my eyes.
Bob demoed his Bayz speakers. I think part of my blockage had to do with the physicality of the Bayz. Strange at best.
But your "big Studers", I'm sure, will be a different story.
At Bob’s I heard the Etsuro Gold. Amazing sound for sure. But it was overwhelming. So much new information that it circumvented a deep emotional response. That’s just me. My response was “OK, I get it!”. No matter how great a system, it cannot really be compared to a live event. My brain digested the information as a mismatch and prevented suspension of disbelief.
I am a diehard Quad 57 guy. One has to accept the limitations and accept that the Quads can never do many others can. But there is an organic, human quality that is addictive. And that is especially well suited for the Grado Epoch 3.
I also hear the “magical realism” your mention. And am able to suspend my disbelief to a point where I get emotionally connected with the musicians.
This special connection with the Epoch is in a different world from the Lyra.
@mgliknot heard Bob’s system, so i can’t even guess why you might say that.
but i can guess how a Quad 57 oriented guy might not mesh with some systems. if you visited Bob’s, you are not that far from me. you would be most welcome to visit and hear the Etsuro Gold(s) in my system......anytime.
my big Studers set the bar very high as far as information and my system can use it all in service to the music......so a cartridge need not worry about that.
whether my system would tip you over into ’disbelief’ is anyone’s guess. i does work that way for me. not the 'live event'.....but it does touch my soul.
Doggie, you have delivered a crushing blow to my fragile ego. Based on the English translation from the Japanese, I’d say you and Raul are correct. My interest in Nagaoka just went up a notch.
Do you cartridge guys think that Nagaoka MP-500 would be a significant step up from Goldring 1042 ? Nottingham Spacedeck/Spacearm and Acoustech phono stage.
Read the page, for yourself, or here's another quote:
we are producing a moving permaloy method cartridge that can be replaced by a nagaoka development needle。
A lightweight structure with separate cantilevers and magnets, which is a method of magnetizing the permeable material to generate electricity。
Due to the structure without a heavy magnet on the rear end of the cantilever, it is highly compliant with the sound groove and has a positive effect on sound quality。
It clearly indicates there is a fixed magnet that induces magnetism in the permalloy on the end of the cantilever. This means the heavy magnet need not be moved by the cantilever, only the lightweight ferrous alloy on the cantilever.
At Bob’s I heard the Etsuro Gold. Amazing sound for sure. But it was overwhelming. So much new information that it circumvented a deep emotional response. That’s just me. My response was “OK, I get it!”. No matter how great a system, it cannot really be compared to a live event. My brain digested the
information as a mismatch and prevented suspension of disbelief.
I am a diehard Quad 57 guy. One has to accept the limitations and accept that the Quads can never do many others can. But there is an organic, human quality that is addictive. And that is especially well suited for the Grado Epoch 3.
I also hear the “magical realism” your mention. And am able to suspend my disbelief to a point where I get emotionally connected with the musicians.
This special connection with the Epoch is in a different world from the Lyra.
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