What is the Silliest Accessory You Have Ever Seen.
I was flipping through the accessory pages at the Cable Company and came up with this https://www.thecableco.com/hallograph.html You have to be kidding me. Of all the dumb, idiotic, profoundly stupid things I have ever seen. The marketing is even better! Have you seen anything worse! It is up to us to uncover these things for what they are, SCAMS.
I own and have always been highly impressed by the Shakti’s! One of the best additions I have made to the acoustic treatments in my room. Why the OP has to ’assume’ that these do not work is interesting, perhaps because looking at them they do not look that impressive ( although once placed even that is debatable). BUT since he more than likely has NOT heard what they can do --it gets back to the old aspect about those that ’ass of u and me’.. There are a number of other mods that are questionable ( and yes, I have heard these!) , some of which have been mentioned already, but in the case of the Shakti’s...they are a bad example.
I’m only slightly ashamed to admit that I recently bought a Schumann frequency generator, albeit one of the cheap models. I’m always willing to be wrong, and hey, I bought it, but it does seem to me to be one of the more scientifically dubious tweaks.
But for less than fifty bucks, I have a nice little wood box with a red light! And heck, maybe it does something...
@simao One could ask the same question about what justifies the cost on numerous pieces of gear in this hobby! If you look at how the Shakti’s are made and what goes into the various aspects of the product to get it to market, I can see where they are coming from with the price, certainly at least as much as a ton of other gear that carries pricing that at first look seems "over the top" ( and most times certainly is). The Shakti’s work well as acoustic treatment...more than can be said for a lot of other gear that is also pricey, and offers less for the $$.
"The Hallograph contours the frequency, amplitude and time coefficients of the first reflections you hear..."
What does "contours the frequency" actually mean? Or contouring amplitude and time coefficients, for that matter. How do coefficients get contoured? Aren’t they just numbers?
Whatever it means, how does it contour the frequency when there are many many frequencies involved, as well as many many different room shapes and wall materials? How does it know what to do and to what extent?
"* Activated panels generate a musically complimentary reflective energy..."
What are "activated panels"? How are they activated and how long do they stay active? Is there a re-activation needed after a certain period? Where on the picture are those panels anyway?
These answers should be easy to obtain and verify as that would go with company’s goals...
"Our long-term goal is to continue to provide low cost, easy to use and scientifically verifiable performance enhancement products for the discriminating hobbyist."
Of course, if $1700 is low-cost is on each one of us to decide for her/himself.
Fair enough. I haven't heard them, so my skepticism is simply that. And building on your argument, how can someone charge more than a luxury sports car for a cube of metal that just amplifies music?
1+ syntax :-)))) daveyf, did you actually buy those things? They are a complete and total rip off. They do not do a darn thing to improve the sound of a modern Hi Fi and probably make it worse rattling around on the floor. Stop trying to justify this s--t! I was hoping this was not a site for mysticism but I may have been wrong.
"mijostynOP 1+ syntax :-)))) daveyf, did you actually buy those things? They are a complete and total rip off. They do not do a darn thing to improve the sound of a modern Hi Fi and probably make it worse rattling around on the floor. Stop trying to justify this s--t! I was hoping this was not a site for mysticism but I may have been wrong."
The question is, are there that many rich people that are that gullible? We'll see how long Shakti Innovations lasts. They certainly do not have a long list of successful products.
I was hoping to see more ridiculous products and less opining. Here is another one, https://walkeraudio.com/product/talisman-magnetic-optimizer/ Sad coming from this company. The turntable was the original tour de force of turntables not that I would ever buy one. There are aspects of it's design I personally do not like but, seeing this for sale on it's web site was very disappointing .
@mijostyn You were asked if you have heard the Shakti's? I know that you have not. I will ask you a question, is it ok to post an opinion on the value and the SQ of any item that you have NOT heard and yet feel like denigrating? If so, then please do keep going with these posts...it will hopefully show all of us where you are coming from. And to answer your question..yes, I did buy them- and I very much feel that they are a MAJOR part of my system.
@mijostyn, obviously you can fool some of the people all of the time.
On the Shaktis, if you think the claims are silly, check out the review, https://6moons.com/audioreviews/shakti/hallograph.html where the reviewer repeatedly quotes respected physicist Feynman, while not even realizing what Feynman was generally talking about (he was talking about people like the reviewer).
Of course, someone without a basic understanding of how sound waves behave could believe many things, once the seed is planted. However, if you understand how sound waves behave you know that many of the claims are over the top, though I expect with my measurement equipment, there is a slight chance I could detect their presence, though I highly doubt I could hear them in a blind test though perhaps, in the one instance in that review where put directly behind the listening chair, I would expect you could pick up reflections given how very close they air.
But then again, look at that listening space in the 6moons review. That's not the listening space of a professional reviewer. I would object to calling that listening space to be that of an audiophile, no matter the equipment. It would be hard to tell the difference between anything in that room.
What do you mean when you talk about the time coefficient? "This is also known as the time signature; how long a given material goes on ringing once it is activated by sound waves striking it. In the chambers behind each reflector, we 'treat' the time signature so it has a much shorter ring than the material a room's walls are made of. This treatment also affects the frequency response, which has a direct correlation with the time signature character. Amplitude is manipulated by the choice of wood, diffusion geometry of the design and additional treatment that will be explained in the patent."
Priceless.
Still no word about how these Hallographs know what material the walls are made of. And the meaning of word "coefficient" is at least somewhat confusing.
If the Holographs are made of 4 different types of wood then they will have 4 different shear velocities. The twisted bodies have multiple angles from which they will both receive and relaunch compessive and shear wave energy to and from the hard angles and into the air of the room. Tom
Like any boundary intersection the Holographs will react differently to drywall, plaster, glass,wood,book cases,record jackets. They all have a varied shear velocity and shape or contour that will react differently to the varied shape and shear velocites of the Holographs. Tom
So many naysayers on this thread....question is how many of them have actually heard what the Shakti Hallograph’s can do and have had them in their system? My bet...none of them..:0(
I dont have any problem with folk who have actual experience with this product and have formed a subsequent negative opinion, but to draw conclusions simply by looking at the product on the web...and then come on a forum to denigrate it....not cool~
No nays from me. I do have an understanding of how they work though different than the 3 Argent Room Lenses I still use. I would love to have a set or 2 of the Hallographs. Tom
Between these two main things this thread suggest to me:
1-The rethorical often non sensical marketing discourse associated with costly audiophile products, which may or may not be effective to some degree, which only a listening experiments can determine,
2-The sarcasm created around a product that someone has NEVER use in his own setting,but nevertheless condemn,
between these two elements, i myself hesitate to choose which should be quantified as being the highest on the scale of stupidity...
I will ask for help M. Carlo Cipola, an italian economist, that has written the best book ever about stupidity... (You can read it free on the internet ) A very brief summary coming from wikipedia:
«These are Cipolla’s five fundamental laws of stupidity:
Always and inevitably everyone underestimates the number of stupid individuals in circulation.
The probability that a certain person (will) be stupid is independent of any other characteristic of that person.
A stupid person is a person who causes losses to another person or to a group of persons while himself deriving no gain and even possibly incurring losses.
Non-stupid people always underestimate the damaging power of stupid individuals. In particular non-stupid people constantly forget that at all times and places and under any circumstances to deal and/or associate with stupid people always turns out to be a costly mistake.
A stupid person is the most dangerous type of person.»
Then with the help of my clairvoyant economist friend, i will suggest to all to read attentively many times point number three...
i will myself said only that: we cannot judge a product only by the marketing discourse around it, or from his seemingly "exagerated" price, we must try it to be sure...
Concluding to the uselessness of a product in spite of our own ignorance of the product on the basis of our lecture of his marketing text and price is unfair...Extrapolating this to ALL other "strange" audiophile products is more than unfair...
I am sorry, but i dont like crowd unanimity toward a victim of choice, being it an individual, or a trade mark product...Except for recognized murderers or recognized pile of trash product....
I concur with the OP that the price of some product are ridiculous or seems so to me also and the explanation around the product non sensical in many case...
Anyway, i never buy them, in some case tough i replicated or inspired myself with them with astonishing success....
The question then of the real value of a product is ANOTHER whole other thing than the publicity explanation around it; confusing the 2 is misleading to say the least...Acoustic in particular is very complex subject...I know it by my own experiments in my own room...
Trying to be wise myself i will not judge without trying...Or i will say: i dont trust this product by my "hunch" BUT i dont know it really ....This will be wise....Bashing all products indicriminately together without knowing them in a thread is not my politic in an audio forum...
By the way i tried myself at peanuts cost many acoustical devices of my own, and i am almost sure that this too costly product called Hallograph can gives results... Is it worth the price? It is another question, the same amount of money does not have the same value for 2 people....
Judging too swiftly and unwisely can produce someone else losses, this company losses for example, but mocking a product without knowing it ourself by experience can be OUR lost about something important in acoustical embeddings controls that we will miss to learn about by the force of our own prejudices......
All seemingly "silliest" audio products are not all of them scams....
"Like any boundary intersection the Holographs will react differently to drywall, plaster, glass,wood,book cases,record jackets. They all have a varied shear velocity and shape or contour that will react differently to the varied shape and shear velocites of the Holographs."
Wouldn’t it be better to make them from one wood/material depending on the wall surface one is placing them next to?
Even if four different woods are used, how does it go if a person has a plaster wall with a painting hanging on it? Or two paintings, one covered with glass? It may end up in any number of combinations. How to assure that whatever shear wave from a certain material will hit the right area of the Hallograph? How does that work?
Do, let’s say, GIK room treatments increase or decrease the perceived benefits of Hallographs?
What scientific methods could be used to verify this performance? Where does one even start with that?
By the way, Shakti website mentions "patent pending" which is about what reviews from 2003 mentioned, too. What happened with that?
I know an informed opinion is really offensive to some people who are unable to make one. I apologize for having a fairly strong background in acoustics. I guess I should be apologizing for my audio privilege and work harder to provide a safe space for disadvantaged audiophiles.
I will go back and play with my 200mpg carburettor, who cares if it violates the laws of thermodynamics, and when I am bored of it, I will go back to playing with the $200 black box that will reduce my electricity usage 30%, again, who cares if it violates the laws of thermodynamics.
If you will note above, I did suggest that I could possible measure its presence (with/without), something I suspect the people who "designed" it have not done. However, for $1500, you could actually buy some real acoustics that make a significant measurable and audible change that truly could make a dramatic improvement.
Look here US Patent 8,735,702 and here US patent 9858903
These methods reduce and or remove a polarity of shear mostly thru dissipation, some with geometry.. The reduction or removal of a polarity of shear lessens "interfering energy" a term my friend Debbie coined. Interference left unchecked can return to the source.. to then again become a part of the signal or the music. For instance vibrating strings can become polluted with energy that is reflected back from the floor thru the endpin..(an adjustable monopole stand) this reflected energy partially becomes 1 with the next note. Debbie can now analyze both mine and her devices when used with a cello and soon for violin.
I have been working with others in the audio field for years and we are now trying to unpack all of this "Interfering Energy" Because of my more recent work Debbie has come forward to decipher her own work and what we the group have been doing for many years. There is a whole lot to unpack with all of these observations and collected information. The hardest thing is to be able to describe to others the why and how and to record and measure the spectrums so we can make further improvements over time. Tom
The Hallograph is a design method to dissipate energy more so than damp energy.
Those patents, at least in their implementation, do not seem to have anything to do with Hallograph.
It is very clear which way whatever wave would be transmitted in those patents, but Hallograph is, for the lack of better word, remote and waves from the wall material would have to find the coresponding area of the Hallograph they would match for proposed effect. If, maybe even better to say when, they hit the non-ideal (for their material) area of the Hallograph, the outcome could, in theory, be detrimental rather than desired.
If different wall materials interact with different Hallograph materials in some ideal situation proposed (that is why there are different types of wood, apparently), it would be necessary to aim waves accurately. How it is done is still mystery. Once we figure out how waves get to Hallograph in the first place, we can expand to what Hallograph does then.
And that is not even touching "activated" and my other questions about how long it stays that way and if it needs reactivation.
Speaking of patents, what is your guess why patent is pending for 17 years?
It all sounds very good, @theaudiotweak , but why use proper acoustic design and things we know work well, and somewhat universally and will substantially reduce or diffuse reflections when we can use an acoustic toy that looks cool with a far out story? Again, I have no doubt it does "something" but if someone understands acoustics and how sound interacts with objects, even fancy ones, you can quickly get a feel for what it can do and over what frequencies. That makes the claims rather ludicrous. For the price, you could implement actual acoustics that will do something necessarily substantial.
So many naysayers on this thread....question is how many of them have actually heard what the Shakti Hallograph’s can do and have had them in their system? My bet...none of them..:0(
I don't have any problem with folk who have actual experience with this product and have formed a subsequent negative opinion, but to draw conclusions simply by looking at the product on the web...and then come on a forum to denigrate it....not cool~
Jimminy crickets, No everyone, I have not heard them and would never give them that honor. I could make a pair in about 1 hour but do not like wasting my time. Daveyf if you think they make your system sound better, that is the power of psycho acoustics for you. Why the heck would I want to dissipate energy after spending so much money to make as much energy as I possibly can? EMF detrimental? With the system cranked to 95 dB I can not hear my wife pull in in the 911, the refrigerator, the washing machine, the HVAC, my daughter on the elliptical trainer and my whole house buzzing. I would think all that would be more detrimental to sound quality than EMF which has ZERO effect on biological systems such as us. Unfortunately, cell phones do not cause brains to rot. We'll have to come up with something else. Audio2design, I really enjoy your posts but IMHO you are just too politically correct. Call a spade lug a spade lug. The only change is sound quality these things make is the rattle they make with the floor. You can patent anything by the way. It does not have to work.
Have to agree, don't think you can top a $2,000 fuse for silly, but gee, I have to respect the chutzpah to extract money from willing victims like that.
"Reactivation" occurs all the time. When you play music the compression waves which start from the shear motion of the speaker drivers becomes a compression wave to be heard. The sounds we hear are from all the objects and the room boundaries themselves. The motion in and on those objects move, that is shear. The shear motion in solid objects is what modulates the air. The air molecules lay on top of these objects that move and vibrate and that motion of air is how we hear. (compression waves) ..Like the seismic energy of the Earth all the materials above ground have particles that can be and are in constant motion. The air that lays across those vastly different solid particles (lead vs steel vs wood) is activated by the density and shape of those objects even when the air is at rest on them. Even if you think they are not moving they are. The walls the carpet the wood floors the Hallograph they are all always in motion and they always react in conjunction with all of the others. Glass and wool sound different because of their shear velocity and density. Wooly sound..glassy sound, tinny sound, leaden sound all describe the sound we hear when these and other materials are struck by shear waves and the resulting compression waves.
Patent pending is a form designed to protect the inventors ideas before the actual patent is granted. I could not find a patent pending application. A problem with a patent or pending patent is full disclosure which means some or all parts of a patent can be copied or changed or litagated. So you need deep pockets to protect yourself from both copies being made on shore as well as overseas. Shakti probably was conflicted as to keep or disclose materials and methods to build their product. I know the Argent Rooms Lens were copied and maybe never patented. Bud Purvine of the EnABL process gave up on trying to enforce his patent and just let the masses run with it and benefit themselves. Everyone has their own method of reasoning on these matters. Tom
After almost half a century’s worth of upgrades, it must be getting difficult to think of what next.
We’ve seen numerous sub chassis reinforcements, various arm boards, different (mainly rubbish) motors, and many speed improvements.
The most ridiculous one was the new arm board in the late 80s. A real piece of overpriced crap. So whatever next?
Could I perhaps suggest a direct drive motor?
Don’t thank me Linn, and don’t worry about all the things you’ve said about them previously.
It’s a different market now and most people won’t remember anyway. Yes, you could introduce it with great fanfare as the final 50th anniversary solution.
I missed the $2000 fuse. @cd318 1+++ You better hope none of the fan boys see this:-) @jperry there are plenty of things you don't have to hear, they are that STUPID, more likely to make things worse not better, and there are plenty of people watching this thread that feel exactly the same way they are just more polite than I am. Fine, I'll be that voice. I'm sorry daveyf but I am under the opinion that your wife had better lock up your credit card. Next you'll be buying a camel to use as a live bass diffuser.
Lets keep it simple, has any one placed 2 or more plants in the corners of their audio room and encountered a change in sound? The pots could be clay or ceramic or brass or metal or plastic. That describes 5 different materials with 5 different shear velocities and whose varied shapes are surrounded by the air that touches these vessels. Now how about the soil level and its density.. packed and dense or loosely filled with stones on top. All materials change the shear velocity and reflective angles. Oh and then there is the height and density of the plant.. tall and open with leaves hanging from the top. Could it be a small tree with branches and then a coarse trunk and bark or a dense hanging fern? Do you hang each from a chain screwed to the ceiling. Is the chain brass or aluminum? Do you hang them near the ceiling or somewhere in between..or do you place them directly on the floor or set on a stand. Is that stand closed on all sides or is it on a opened leg wire stand. Every material shape reacts to compression and shear they all speak back to us in our music..Tom
Great remarks.... It is called the acoustical properties of the varied content of a room....
For me there is 3:
Acoustical properties of the material content walls included.
Geometry (form of the room and proportion)
Topology (numbers of windows and number of doors and their location)
These 3 factors DECIDED what the sound of an untreated room will be like.... More than the branded name of your chosen amplifier and on par if not more so than your specific speakers...
Add to the impact of the acoustical embeddings of an audio system, the impact of an untreated electrical grid, and the impact of unimpeded vibrations and other mechanical factor like resonance...
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