What is the Silliest Accessory You Have Ever Seen.

Some tweaks are not so fine. When does a tweak become radical ?  What's the threshold of a tweak to move above and beyond the mediocrity of its given name. 
Is an equipment rack a no name tweak or is it like I have found it to be a system component that is a necessity?  I am a member of a company that makes high level  resonance control systems and component parts for audio as well as for violin and cello. Tom

theaudiotweak, by radical do you mean ineffective? Resonance control systems can be very important. The Ben and Jerry's ice cream factory in Vermont had a huge problem. It's compressors were driving it's neighbors nuts. The screens surrounding them rang like a tuning fork. They hired my brother's company to stop it. What component parts do you make?

Cleeds, obviously, any sense can be deceived. I think most people got the gist of what I was saying in the absence  of deception. Again, thank you for the kind an understanding comments. Your second paragraph was wonderful.
millercarbon, you seem to be descending into psychosis. Besides getting lost is there anything we can do to help. Really.

Radical as in a cup full or even a barrel full. A tweak is to me like a pinch or two of salt. Radical as in forward motion not in the reverse.
Tom

A tweak is never a solution by itself...

It is only a step toward some improvement... Calling a tweak "radical" is only market method for selling....Radical solution are engineered one and costly usually....But very low cost partial solution exist like the "room lens" we can reproduce homemade... Even imperfect, very positive increasing S.Q.

For my room i have used many complementary devices with success....At no cost....

The key is understanding that NO audio system can work optimally with no controls at all in the mechanical, electrical and acoustical dimensions....Then ridiculizing buyer of tweak and thinking that a systen can work fine out of the box is deceiving oneself with future upgrades illusion... Chasing good sound is first installing his actual system in the best controlled environment...

Respectfully,

At what level of improvement does the term Tweak lift itself to the level of a component change? That is what I am asking. Does it require a large out lay of funds to be called a component?

When some friends heard my new acoustic device they said who would have thought that would make that big a difference..but they still called it a tweak..in my home it makes a large improvement one that tells me when it is engaged and when it is not. Lights up or lights dimmed.  Tom

Respectfully,

At what level of improvement does the term Tweak lift itself to the level of a component change? That is what I am asking. Does it require a large out lay of funds to be called a component?

When some friends heard my new acoustic device they said who would have thought that would make that big a difference..but they still called it a tweak..in my home it makes a large improvement one that tells me when it is engaged and when it is not. Lights up or lights dimmed. Tom

I was asking myself this question 2 years ago BEFORE my systematic journey in listening experiments...

We must distinguish between relatively good components and very high refined one....

I own only good components not very refined one on the scale of Quality/ price ratio...

After these 2 years i learned that NO good only audio system can compare to a refine costly one.... Not the same measured potentials of quality....But the margin of distance between the 2 can be very strongly shortened...

Because ANY system must be embedded in the three working dimensions for their optimal workings...

From that follow that the difference between only a" good" component and a very" refined" costly one is NOT what most people think, especially if the costly system is not installed in a controlled environment but the good system to compare with it, itself is...

The question is not to know when a "tweak" begin to be a component of a system....

The questions is what any system, relatively "good one" or "very refined" one, ask for, to be rightfully embedded?

This problem cannot be solved completely only by a bunch of costly tweaks, but must be answered with systematic listening experiments linked to the mechanical embedding of the system, listening experiments linked to the electrical embedding of the system, and listenings experiments linked to the system acoustical embedding...

A pair of speakers, a turntable and a dac, and amplifier are an INCOMPLETE system...If they are not in their controlled working dimensions...This controlled complex environment is the MISSING part of the system, not a tweak or 2....

We nead ears to create listening experiments, even acoustic problems cannot be solved by only electronic tool device...

I am not surprized at all by your experience.... I lived through the same.....

My best to you....

And thanks for your recommendation of the "lensroom"....It worked great...


P.S.

Speaking of placebo and blind test is deluding others and himself...Blind test may be interesting but they are not necessary for improving our audio system in our house....... An INCREMENTAL set of increases on a long period (2 years for me) with many improvements after different experiments always going after trials and errors in the same direction: an always better natural timbre experience and a better imaging, CANNOT be ONLY illusory....

But buying a cable and listening if there is a small difference tough MAY be a placebo or not...Sspecially in a noisy environment...

I say that for those why cry " placebo" in this thread ....There is a difference between placebo in medecine and illusion of perception in audio but i will not speak about that here....

Where do accessories end and tweaks begin?

mahgister, those who cannot listen will always cry. If not placebo then double-blind, expectation bias, counter-expectation bias, the room, the speakers, my pants are too tight, got a flat tire, dog ate my homework. Lousy listeners are always crying about something.     

Because: can't hear! They're trying to play a game where hearing and listening are everything, and every time they try, total fail. 

Where do accessories end and tweaks begin?

A chair is an accessory a pair of glasses is a tweak.... 😁

The 2 are embedding devices for the body in the process of reading a book ....

half-joke, half truth.....😊

I prefer to communicate and share experiments and experience...

Being divisive is of no avail .....

No one has all the answers here....

Speaking of a chair...I want to direct couple my chair to the floor with Audiopoints..something I have thought of doing for a long time.
Hope its not a pain in the booty.Tom

Just make sure you place the audiopoints at the end of each chair leg, facing downward to the floor.  Placing them facing up on the seat bottom will be instantly destabilizing the moment you sit down.

MC,

Those that put $100,000 (supposedly) in front of $5,000 speakers, and who have never properly measured their room and adjusted the acoustics with anything but their ears are destined for a lifetime of tweaks but a low plateau for sound quality. Enjoy.

"Where do accessories end and tweaks begin?"

Where do tweaks end and major components begin?

"Those that put $100,000 (supposedly) in front of $5,000 speakers..."

Does anyone ever do that? Aside for the novelty of bizarre? Why would anyone do that?

What is wrong with tuning your listening room to suit your listening preference, so long as you have the sound of live, preferably unamplified music in a live venue as your comparator?  To achieve that end, or get close to it, you need to experience live music as often as possible, of course. In my opinion, that approach is as valid as any other.

Lewm, I fully agree, You have to know what the real deal sounds and feels like to have a prayer of getting that kind of performance at home....with live recordings. Many recordings were not meant for that. The artist had something else in mind.
There are two major characteristics I think in achieving a realistic live performance. Power projection, the ability to create the dynamics and volume of a live performance across the entire frequency band. And the right frequency response which is tricky because this includes the room.
Power projection is actually pretty easy. You just need the right speakers and enough power to do the job which depends on what you chose for the right speakers. The right frequency response is much harder. If you think you can trust your ears for this you are out of your mind. Human hearing accommodates to frequency very quickly. I have tested many systems that the owner was happy with and they were all way out. If you are use to listening to a bright system (most common) A system that is relatively flat will sound dull at first. People also have no idea what their room is doing. Making empirical changes in room acoustics is a crap shoot. First you have to get to flat. Flat is the only acceptable reference point. After that you can start tilting things to your preference and you will know exactly what you are doing. The easy way to achieve this is room control. But theoretically you can do this with a measurement microphone and some smarts, but for certain it will take you a lot longer to get there.
You will never have the best system you could have trying to balance it by ear, never. I have measured too many systems that people thought were just fine only to come up with a substantial mess. They had just gotten use to their sound. Measurement microphones and programs are not that expensive. IMHO Every audiophile should have one. This is immeasurably more important than any tweak you could buy.  It is like having a good protractor for your turntable. It is also a lot of fun and a great learning experience.   

"The right frequency response is much harder. If you think you can trust your ears for this you are out of your mind."

I do not agree there is a "right" frequency response suitable for all program sources.  And I am definitely out of my mind. You are chasing your tail with digital room correction, but have fun with that. It's yet another hobby.

It’s yet another hobby.

Rightly said....

NO acoustician use " equalisation" like a main tool to create a good room, some used instead "room correction" as a secondary tool to refine the link between some speakers and the room... No bad room can be transformed by the equalizer of our "gifted" friend to a good room, at best it can be made less worst...The reason is simple an equalizer does not do a good job to analyse the impulses from the room response timing , it truncate the time response, it is not a room corrector; and anyway i listen to music in TWO different positions in my room then very different responses exist at the 2 locations , how can you equalize optimally? And my 6 headphones are useless now they all sound unnatural compared to my room....

My actual room is very good in the 2 positions... 😊

I am not an acoustician but most people dont use E.Q. and i dont want to either but anyway i will try room correction myself this year to refine my results...My room is acoustically good for my ears now then refinement is in the order....Room correction not equalization....
😊



My new device acoutical control cost really 3 or 4 peanuts;

I called it an "Helmholtz silent organ".... And results are outstanding for room correction with EARS... Cost a brick with 6 copper plumber pipes same diameter but which lenght in the golden ratio proportion with one another...Perfect? not at all....Astounding? yessssssss.... Cost ridiculous....It is my refinement of the "room lens"....

My hobby is creativity...

Our "gifted" friend is more liberal with his money but more economical with his ideas it seems....I think his brain is too much preoccupied with "snake oil" all around him....Myself i perceive opportunities or "affordance" around me....


My new device created in the last 24 hours:

Seeing my " Helmholtz silent organ" device i dont doubt that his "gifted" seeing will perceive snake oil on the spot....Especially because the appearence is not refine and the cost is lower than a pair of good socks...And it work wonderfully teaching us a lesson about acoustic....
😁
But guess what? i always delude myself ALONE, not with friends in a equalization club smiling at all those who bought "tweaks"....

But those who will borrow my crazy ideas will do it at no cost or peanuts costs....And they will have fun...




Hi-FI experience is possible at very low cost, i dont give a damn about those who sell costly electronics or useless ideas for creating this experience, like buying a costly equalizer....

Is there is a better system than mine? yes.... But i never listen to one for now.... My experience is for sure limited , yes, but i know how a piano in a room sound like and the sound of a piano NEVER come from speakers, and exist by itself.... My system replicate that in more than a small measure, thanks to my embeddings controls....

Components are parts of the system that you absolutely need to get sound out of it.  In a conventional system, source component(s), amplification, speakers, ICs, SCs, and PCs.

Beyond that everything else, categorization-wise, is subjective.

Accessories are items that started off as tweaks but have become sufficiently mainstream to be thought of as pretty standard, e.g. footers.

Tweaks aren't mainstream, e.g. mpingo discs.

One man's tweak is another man's accessory.

Fashions change, and generally there is a trend for less out-there tweaks to come to be thought of as accessories.  It's an on-going process.  A good number of tweaks never make the grade and fall by the wayside, only to be recalled years later in nostalgic threads on Audiogon.

One man’s tweak is another man’s accessory.

Thanks for your wise post....

My best to you....

Mahgister

Do you have some photos of your version of the Room Lens?
Aka the Room Organ I suppose because of the copper pipes. Is it vented on the base bottom? Have you tuned the pipes with wool. I will send you a picture of my active audio room conditioner soon. Tom

No photos for now.... I just finish the first approximative design...Wait some time please.... 😊

i use 2 set of three pipes vented at the base yes, i try to use golden proportion between the 3 pipes, one is the lenght sum of the other 2, not wool no....It work, improvement on all count in my room....

I am pretty sure that a refinement in more exact proportion and adjustement of the pipes will even improve my results....

But i take few minutes to make one of them then... and the result were amazing...

ROOM acoustic is the KEY to audio, not costly electronic design "per se"....Add the mechanical embeddings controls and the electrical grid controls and the door is open to audiophile experience with any relatively good system even low cost one....


I will send you a picture in the week to come... but it is a 2 set of bricks with 3 pipes in each 3 hole... rather easy to figure....

Thanks very much for your interest....

I see that in my minds eye..plus the copper has a nice acoustic flavor. Or even 80% copper 20% tin bronze which I have been searching for,  to use in another acoustic project.Tom

Yes it is only a primitive Helmholtz phenomena resonator.... the key with the open pipes is the lenght relative to one another...
the Helmholtz resonators sets is the ancester of room correction....


My "organ" is more economical than the original "room lens" for me... i dont pretend it is better tough i have no idea....

By the way i already use 3 bigger tubular "plastic" pipes, 8 feet, 5 feet, 3 feet, with 3 inches and 5 inches diameter with success...My first version of the "roomlens"... These 3 tubes are closed at the aperture and a straw is used with a determined lenght and diameter....I have done this 46 hours ago....

On the other end my organ pipes are vented at the basis not glued to wood like the big tubes, and the top aperture is open...


i already created some Helmholtz bottles before that in my room, you have given to me the idea about tubes when answering people mocking "roomlens" with a your post... Thanks to you...

All my devices today act complementarily and my audio room is sonically very good now...


But i need more experiments with tubes and pipes....Fun for months to come .... Price: peanuts.....




I am very proud by the way to be in " the most silliest tweaks" thread and be mocked by some passive consumers and gullible "upgraders" of electronic costly design...

They ignore the elememtary fact that an electronic piece of gear CANNOT work optimally in giving an optimal S. Q.  in a bad uncontrolled mechanical dimensions, in a bad and noisy electrical house grid and in a bad acoustical room like they almost are....

Lewm, There is a right frequency response, perfectly flat from each individual speaker within it's operating range. Once you have that you can alter things to suite your taste. I run my subwoofers a little forward and tilt the treble down 3 dB at 20 kHz for some recordings. I also use a 4 kHz notch filter for harsh recording. 
You should stop being a stick in the mud, spend a couple of $100 and get yourself a calibrated microphone and computer program. It is a lot of fun and a great learning experience. But, if you are happy where you are nobody can argue. Yes, this is certainly a hobby, the mechanical part of it. Listening to music is a necessity.  

If you wear slippers while at the same time, smoke a pipe, I've heard it can make everything sound better. I'm going to try this tweak. 

We dont lack " nuts" in this thread dont add one more ....Myself included for sure....



By the way sarcasm is an art that ask for more than regurgating common place joke....

Practice rhetoric....

« Word of wisdom can rarely be under a piece of s...»-Anonymus Smith

«Especially not on top either»-Groucho Marx 


Anyway my best to you in your world.....

Go for it audioguy85, but the pipe will give you mouth cancer so I would suck on something else. Try an M+M pop.

« Word of wisdom can rarely be under a piece of s...»-Anonymus Smith

"Rarely" equals "sometimes is" - glupson (Wisdom of Words, Volume 3, chapter 27)

@glupson, Stop trying to be a wise guy:-)

mijostyn,

I am not even trying.

Just what I thought :-)))

«Wise men chose most of the times "rarely" over "never" »-Anonymus Smith

This is for justifying the chosen content of my word...



For justifying the general form in the context of the original answering post by which this chosen word was inspired:

Try the word " euphemism" in a rhetorical dictionary....

After that read about "sarcasm" in the same dictionary

Connect the two.....



And final test:

Did i used this precise expression "rarely" because only of his content or because of the context first ?

To have a clue do this exercise:







Exercise:

Repeat after me: " Tweaks are rarely good"

Try now : " Tweaks are never good"

Sense the differences....
Estimate how the difference had different  impact on people in this thread....


End of lesson.....

It’s mostly a case of people trying to find a way to go out the garage, or a different room, or outside for a drive, a ride or a long walk....etc.... for some quiet..and agreed upon peace... and find a way to get a hold of and control some small part of their currently messed up life-----

....and they do it by going on line ---and kicking the dog. As the dog is disagreeing with them too.

If you beat the dog further, or even making a motion toward the dog with the full intent to deliver a beating...you’ll only be the fool. Worse, actually..more a case of being blind and abusive than anything else. Totally outside of reason/thought.

The OP began the thread on the premise of continual beatings due to the OP’s blindness and emotional issues.

The worse case scenario as a point of perpetual enforced purgatory... as forced upon entities external to his given self. This is clearly noted in the OP’s thread startings, and contributions in threads.

This is counter to all reasonable behavior and should not, under any circumstances, be supported or allowed.

mahgister,

Hmmmm, maybe it would be easier to decipher if you changed your teaching technique.

In general, context means nothing if the content is wrong.

In general, context means nothing if the content is wrong.

Your remark miss the point: There exist differences between effect of rhetoric in prose and the prosaic content of a word in a dictionary...

I answered your free sarcasm....With a lesson in sarcasm... 😊

In rhetoric the CONTEXT is the main element, not the immediate content of a word...

The context in language is worked by this part of the brain more involved with WHOLE situation than parts or details, more involved with encompassing global attention, than to a small object in the focus of attention....
This neurological fact reflect itsef in rethoric with the 2 corresponding polarities: poetical mode and prosaic modality of language...
The articulation of these 2 modes constitute everyday language also...

maybe it would be easier to decipher if you changed your teaching technique.

For your pretention to criticize my alleged method of "teaching", this is only your way to attribute something to my opinion that is not there...It is also your rhetorical process so to speak...

I then will remind you of my "teaching" or opinion in prosaic word:

- Nobody must condemn ALL unusual or silly products to be useless one save if you know them or experiment with them in the first place...

-This way of creating a thread would not be so harmful, if the OP of this thread with some others, added not to this unfounded general judgement, the sarcastic free mockery against ALL customers that have bought these alleged "silliest" or unusual products accusing all of them indiscriminately of gullibility...




I am sure that your operating normal swift mind will not qualify my simple stating of these facts to be "teachings"...

For the rest i only read english, i dont speak it, then i apologize for my "alleged" bad use of language or sometimes clumsy way....



For my ONLY one attributed "teaching, this is simple:

-We must learn how to install and control the mechanical, electrical and acoustical dimensions linked to any audio system....

-And NO TWEAK can solve that part by solely by itself and NO audio system can work at his optimal rate in an uncontrolled noisy environment...

Is it difficult to understand?

It seems not open mind read that like evidences.....

I am sure you did also.....

My best to you.....

@teo_audio, such negative vibes. Exactly who's life are you describing? 
Certainly not me. Except for my right hand I consider myself very lucking and I certainly would not kick a dog. But I do like lighting fuses. It is that human fascination with fire and explosions. Plus I love the tweakaholics.
They are a never ending source of entertainment. No animosity intended.

Plus I love the tweakaholics.
They are a never ending source of entertainment. No animosity intended.

It is an audio thread, and writing openly that you enjoy your own prejudice against a group of people alleged "stupidity" or "gullibility" underline your own limitation without proving their own alleged limitation in each case ....You are"gifted" indeed reading your own word....

I am not surprized that you sided like a sheep in the "scientist" band wagon with someone who vouch and think that by a theorem in signals theory he can replace the human ears by numbers ....Without even knowing himself in doing so that he will reveal clearly to all that he dont understand the modelling factors in the objective concept of timbre, calling that "subjective colored illusions" if not useless, only a taste....

How do we call someone who bash indiscriminately and with no reason except his appeal to an elusive scientist faith a great number of people, without verifying what they experimented in the first place, and whitout gaining anything for himself in the process of this condemnation:

Take notice of point three here in particular:

These are Cipolla’s five fundamental laws of stupidity (in wikipedia):

1. Always and inevitably everyone underestimates the number of stupid individuals in circulation.
2. The probability that a certain person (will) be stupid is independent of any other characteristic of that person.
3. A stupid person is a person who causes losses to another person or to a group of persons while himself deriving no gain and even possibly incurring losses.
4. Non-stupid people always underestimate the damaging power of stupid individuals. In particular non-stupid people constantly forget that at all times and places and under any circumstances to deal and/or associate with stupid people always turns out to be a costly mistake.
5. A stupid person is the most dangerous type of person.

Point 4 concern me a lot.... I must go out of this thread....

In response to Mijostyn:  I do tune my room using both home-made absorbers and diffusers and also commercial products that do the same.  I aim usually to eliminate any nasty peaks that are inherent to the room, and that's about my only goal.  But to paraphrase Joe McCarthy's famous question, I am not now, nor have I ever been interested in electronic methods to shape the frequency response of my amplifier/speakers.  I do modify my electronics and in one instance a speaker crossover, in order to improve upon the interaction between electronics and speakers.  The goal there is always compatible with a flat response at the level of electronics.  As I mentioned elsewhere, that was particularly important with respect to the Sound Lab 845PX crossover. In general, my opinion after 45 years as a hobbyist is that if your own choice of room/speaker/amplifier/front end equipment does not already get you 90-95% toward your own audio Nirvana, no amount of tweaking per se will get you the rest of the way. That includes ICs, power cords, NOS tubes, boutique parts, and various add-ons that closer to snake oil than to common sense.  The ICs, power cords, etc, can embellish, but you can't turn an audio sow's ear into a silk purse with gadgets.

What interests me is that in some posts you sound like you have been in the audio business, but from other posts I gather you are a physician, likely a pediatrician.  Since those to professions are quite different, I wonder which is correct.

Should have written "...that in my opinion are closer to snake oil...."Others are free to decide for themselves.

mahgister,

For your pretention to criticize my alleged method of "teaching", this is only your way to attribute something to my opinion that is not there..

You really misunderstand as much as I do. I was simply trying to tell you that the way you teach (quote from your teaching post: "End of lesson....") is barely comprehensible and you may want to work on it.

Your preferred method of delivering lessons needs improvement. If the student paying attention to a lesson cannot understand, the teacher needs improvement.

You really misunderstand as much as I do.

I think on this precise point about my way of explaining that you are right....

But if you correct me about anything it will be difficult for me to stay calm... 😊

But i understand what you say, and i am not an english speaker, then my presentation of an argument is more "square" than necessary.... I partake your judgement on this point.... I sometimes wrote too " squarely" point by point to be sure to be understood...

We are very different character glupson, it is better for us to be friends....My imagination need ground, but your walking pace sometimes need wings....it is better to complement each other instead of going to war with useless arguing....

I see you asking questions, doubting, but you never bash group of people indiscriminately....You are polite and not arrogant... I try to imitate that.... It is just that i dont like when people attack without reason and i am too passionate ....In an audio thread discussion must be open and without condemnation....

My best to you...

My fav was the metal cd disk monster cable made to help smooth out the content. Digital data isn’t smooth, or rough or harsh. It’s zero’s and ones. And it added more mass for the drive motor. The $1200 power cable is my next fav. All this massive cable plugged into a wall where the home builder bought the cheapest copper wire they could find. Lol. 

"cheapest copper wire" would actually be an upgrade over what is used in many modern contructions, where you might find aluminum wiring.  THAT would be the cheap way out.  But the argument against expensive power cords, based on the idea that miles of inexpensive wire precede the wall socket, is an old one that never dies.  I take no sides but I also would never buy a hyper-expensive power cord, based instead upon the fact that I can make my own, using very high quality copper or silver wire and very good plugs, for much less cost.

clywnbe

I have a group design of a cd cover we call the Cirkulus..have used it daily for over 20 years. It will only work on drawer load and top load players. It is very light weight and has a shallow lip to enclose the edge/lip of the cd. The edge of the cd causes light scatter to be read by the laser and to engage the error correction. It does reduce the need for error correction allowing the player itself to extract more music. Sounds better. Tom

@lewm , We are actually in close agreement. I always have said that you have to control the acoustic of the room to the greatest extent possible before resorting to digital adjustment. You just stop before the digital adjustment. You should measure your system. I think you might be surprised. As for tweaks we feel exactly the same way. That money is much better spent on equipment and effective acoustic treatment. If any of it does anything it is miniscule in comparison. Whenever I get flowery, bombastic descriptions of the improvement "product X" made I dismiss that opinion out of hand. 
Now as for my career. I am a board certified family physician licensed in Massachusetts and New Hampshire. 
I started building Dynakits as a kid. I got so good with a soldering iron that while in high school I got hired by dBx in Waltham to wire the power supply chassis of 32 channel noise reduction units which I did for two Summers. In 1976 I traveled to Miami, FL for medical school. To help with finances I got a job at Luskin's Hi Fidelity nights and weekends as a salesman. It was a discount box store  selling mid fi mostly but we did have some nice stuff like Revox and Accuphase. The big high end store was Peter McGrath's Sound Components. I got most of my own equipment there. A friend of my cousins (very wealthy) asked if I would set up a system in his new house which I did using equipment from Peter.
Other wealthy people heard his system and I started getting requests. I left the job at Luskin's and started working on my own. Peter gave me discounts on equipment which I sold at retail with an added labor charge.
I then got all my own equipment at salesman's comp. That for me was the jackpot. The final system I set up was the entire PA system at Flagler Dog Track. The old system started having trouble and needed to be replaced including the exterior speakers. Nothing like climbing through steel girders and trusses hanging from the roof of a huge grand stand. The electronics were up in the announcers booth hanging from the roof dead center. I had to build the main control console which fed 8 JBL amplifiers and controlled two R2R's, two 8 tracks, a radio, a TV and two microphones. Along the way I developed a relationship with Jim Strickland of Acoustat fame. I had Acoustat X's which I got through Peter.
They were very pretty but the enclosures were awful and resonated like crazy. I pulled the panels out and mounted them in a solid frame, covered it in grill cloth and mounted a 3 inch thick maple plate to the top and bottom then stuck them on top of two RH labs subwoofers. Peter heard it and dragged Jim over to hear and he was impressed. The design turned into the Monitor 4 and Monitor 3. Jim had this plastic base made that lifted the speaker 18 inches and housed the amplifiers which I thought was ugly but it was a huge improvement. A year later he switched to the Model 1,2,3,4 followed by the 1+1, 2+2, 3+3 and the monster 4+4. This was at about the time I moved to Ohio for residency. I wanted a set of 2+2s when I got to Ohio so Jim set me up with a dealer in Akron called The Golden Gramophones. He sent the speakers up there and told John Ashe the owner to give them to me at dealer cost. I think but I am not sure that Jim charged John less than the usual dealer cost. John and I became close friends. He got me a deal on my first Porsche, a  944 Turbo. Now that I had an income as a resident I only set up system's for friends. I always got the from John and he always took care of me even after I moved to New Hampshire until the store closed in 1998. 
I hope that explains everything lewm.

The Manzieer.

I think that it's spelled Manssiere