When you have better than a cursory wikipedia understanding of sound waves and acoustics, then this conversation will make sense. You have latched onto only one property and are ignoring absolutely everything else. When you figure out longitudinal velocity, mean integrated velocity, extensional velocity, and oh, acoustic impedance, let's pick this up again and add another 4 or 5 terms to add to the repertoire.
theaudiotweak2,118 posts01-11-2021 3:28pmLets
keep it simple, has any one placed 2 or more plants in the corners of
their audio room and encountered a change in sound? The pots could be
clay or ceramic or brass or metal or plastic.
That describes 5
different materials with 5 different shear velocities and whose varied
shapes are surrounded by the air that touches these vessels. |
theaudiotweak, Thanks for the explanation of "activated" and the rest. I will have to try to grasp it with a few more readings as, at first quick read, it does not completely explain what goes where. I will do my best as time goes by. As far as patents go, they are not as complicated to obtain and, taking into consideration the rest of the marketing description of Hallographs, I have a feeling it is more of a marketing trick than actual "patent pending" with any intention to obtain it. Of course, I may be wrong, but claiming that patent is pending for 17 years is bordering on laughable. 2021 How Much Does A Patent Cost? | Cost To File & Patent An Idea (thervo.com) You wonder how this goes...
This information is found in 35 U.S. Code 292(a) about false marking. The document states: "Whoever marks upon, or affixes to, or uses in advertising in connection with any article, the words 'patent applied for,' 'patent pending,' or any word importing that an application for patent has been made, when no application for patent has been made, or if made, is not pending, for the purpose of deceiving the public — Shall be fined not more than $500 for every such offense. Only the United States may sue for the penalty authorized by this subsection."
When Can You Say Patent Pending? Everything You Need to Know (upcounsel.com)
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glupson..
Yea it is a hard read and a hard write..takes me sometime to write the correct visual for all of this. What I knew before was based on my own designs, experiments and observations. When Debbie found me after her patent and she had referenced mine she called me out of the blue. After hearing my design in person she thought somehow I corrupted her patent. She flew across country to meet me. TotalIy different application but the end results are nearly the same. I showed her highend audio and she shared her 35 years of being a professional geophysicist and why that field of science is so important in the production of music both live and recorded. Chance encounter. Tom |
@daveyf
@grannyring
@theaudiotweak
Only sounds of reason in here. For everyone, please, no matter what you think, at least give them a listen in YOUR system and then you will know if they do anything for you.
When I first saw these devices, I thought they'd be used in the first reflection as they would appear to breakup the first reflection if positioned in that area of each sidewall. GIK and others do this with room treatment.
I do not own these, and never plan to. But experience with them is the only way to know if they really work in your room or not. |
glupson
Shakti did obtain a patent on the stone but I can locate nothing for the Hallograph. Patents are not cheap..if you hire an agent or a patent attorney. The fees are cheap for a small entity. Tom |
PS Audio Noise Harvester. I know it's snake oil but I still bought one! The blue flashing LED did show me which dimmer switches were making the most noise, but made absolutely no difference in the sound of my system. I think Paul invented it for a joke just to see how many suckers he could reel in! |
I think it would cost more to keep a patent pending for 17 years given than it would cost to simply file it. I am guessing that patent application is long since not pending.
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In descending order of ridiculousness, proportional to its price:
- cable lifters
- boutique fuses
- power cables
- digital cables |
The green pen for coloring the edges of cd’s..
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Green cartridge stylus paper. Used in the 80’s to disastrous effect by most. Either blunted styli or alternatively sharpened them to a lethal point. |
@audio2design, the first denial would come in about 6 months usually stating "Prior Art." To keep it going for 17 years with lawyers would cost a fortune but I am almost sure the patent office would offer a final denial after they had had enough.
@grannyring , there is a sucker born every minute and they are the fish these hoodlums' feed on. If you do not know enough to make an intelligent decision ask someone who is. When humans are involved it is always best to doubt everything.
@pokey77 you have to be kidding. I have decided I'm going to make my fortune creating a string of companies that make nothing but audiophile absurdities. You have convinced me there is a growing market for such things. If they can get daveyf for $1500 I bet I can get him for at least $2500. I'll start with a full system demagnetizer (just a fancy power strip you plug all your stuff into) and follow it up with the Phonograph Holographer ( a little box you plug up between your phono stage and preamp, gives you a holographic sound stage.) Next, lets see...ah! The Image Synthesizer, a triangular wooden box 6 feet tall you put in-between your main speakers. Prevents that hole in the middle. It will all work. I promise! Such is the power of psychoacoustics. |
cakyol,
Digital cables are ridiculous? Do you have ears? They are required to transmit a signal! |
Or my Acustafan with special application of materials that conditions the air in my music room. Sounds as if I am using a giant comb to enhance and separate details and overcome room boundaries. No joke..it works very well.
Tom |
I'm constantly reminded of a song lyric by Simon and Garfunkel in the song The Boxer on the Bridge Over Troubled Waters LP, "A man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest" . I find this to be quite true and you can substitute any of the senses for "hears" including "believes" and it's still true. As long as we are using our ear/brain to evaluate what we hear it becomes quite subjective. I once bought snake oil in the 80's called First and also Last. I even put Last on only the outside half of several albums to see if the Archival claim for Last was discernable over time. I can't say that it did anything. |
@mijostyn You have brought me back to this thread with your ongoing attacks. Firstly, you have absolutely no clue as to what I do and do not do with my system, nor what it sounds like, secondly your ongoing disbelief in gear that you have never heard ( and clearly have no interest in hearing..thereby enlightening yourself) is telling us a lot! The fact that you are a blinkered person and unable to comprehend that not everything that looks unacceptable to your way of thinking may in fact work, also says a lot about you. Lastly I should ask you a question, why are you even in this hobby? After all you seem to know that nothing makes any difference in your system, those power cables are all bogus if they are not meeting your visual requirement, those weird looking foam panels on your wall..just fancy wall coverings right...those big flat panels that vibrate...how can they really work well also...hmmm.
Now I'm off-- |
@daveyf, knock yourself out. Just because you are gullible does not mean the rest of us have to be. I'm really sorry that you wasted your money. My intent was not to attack you. I had no idea you had wasted your money on these things. Frankly I thought everyone would laugh at the silliness of them. I had no idea someone would take them seriously. From an ethical standpoint you can't sell them. Maybe you could donate them to a museum? Maybe millercarbon or mahgister will take them off our hands. |
With my Argent Room Lenses I can focus and steer the sound stage energy at my chair and all the way across my 21 ft wide room and down the side walls if I want.
I more than suspect the Hallograms will do the same or even more. Very cool I'm sure. Tom |
Maybe millercarbon or mahgister will take them off our hands.
By the way dont assimilate my way with someone else, anybody, to ridicule me and dont speak using my name in my back out of an answer to some precise post by myself....I will NEVER use your name out of an answer to you for the sake of ridiculizing you, like you in your last post ....Imitate me, it is called elementary politeness... My answer now: Some think that a 10,000 dollars equalizer is vastly superior to my few bucks embeddings controls devices... They ridicule my listenings experiments and devices and called them pejoratively "tweaks", forgetting i created them myself or bought only the more low cost electronic pieces, Schuman Generators at 10 bucks for example, and modifying them for my needs...I never bought or recommend branded name and ready made products... I only recommend CREATIVITY.... They laugh at me.....Without knowing for example the limitations of their ready made, without the human ears, pricely electronic equalizer solutions...They are useful yes, BUT only stay, whatever some can say, limited and partial solutions... Where you put the mic, that is where the measure is taken...And how do you measure with a microphone the very audible effects of a Schuman Generator or a ionizer? And how do you manage it for many simultaneous listenings locations in your room? My ears can at no cost....The difference is that you dont know that your ears can also like mine do the job, but you are able to pay for a ready made solution, i am not, i then use my ears like a compass.... This people with their 10,000 bucks products smile at one guy who transform totally his room for peanuts... Who is ridiculous then ? The one who tried before using his mouth or the one who dogmatically affirm something about a device he will never listen to before giving a judgement? I cannot be accused of selling costly tweaks, i replicate them at the price of a few peanuts jars... And i know WHY and HOW these costly device may work by my own experiments...I never recommended to someone COSTLY ready made product like you Mijostyn your E.Q. device...And i dont attack people either with laws of science or not....E.Q. costly device or costly "tweaks" it is the same thing for me...My road is peanuts costs HI-FI.... An Example now: Few years ago i read about the Bybee room enhancer costing many thousands dollars... The fabrication of this device is secret but there is a description where they say it is made with some crystals and probably some battery etc... I replicate that myself with success.... It is not the same thing, but the increase in S.Q. for peanuts versus many thousand dollars for the Bybee were enough to convince me... And so was my listenings experiments story for some years with many other retro engineer simple devices... Another example: my "golden plate" cost peanuts and replace very more costly products very well known that cost many thousand dollars...I NEVER BOUGHT ONE.... Who is ridiculous me or those speaking about "tweaks" they never replicate or never listen to? Because their audio system cost 50,000 bucks in some case how in the hell can they justify the S.Q. increase of cardboard paper and aluminium paper glued at the right spot? 😁 It does not matter if a "tweaks" work or not in our system or for ourself, or even if it does not work at all, the fool is not someone who make a wrong decision; the fool expresses himself without any experience of what he is talking about and call it a law of acoustic or anything else...Acoustical art and science has limitations for which the human ears dont give a dam.... The only problem with most tweaks, it is not they dont work, most work in the right condition to some level, it is their high price that is the "problem", their ratio S.Q. increase/ price.. A device who does not work at all will take no or very few flying reviews in any market....Save a miraculous sums of reviewrs lies....That is not the rule sorry... Only exception...A pile of bullshit will never give you big money, a few bucks perhaps, except in some western movie with a witch doctor selling you his"snake oil" for a few dollars..... I will keep my peanuts costs efficient device and i will laugh the last laugh at those credulous technological fads who think they are right by virtue of advanced technology and who trust more a device than their own ears in a room created for their ears... A n equalizer is only a tool, not a complete solution of the acoustical settings of a room at all... I dont need it now, because for the price paid the improvement will be marginal... If the piano is in the room and the sound dont come of the speakers at all, in not one, but 2 different positions of listenings, with natural timbre, no need for a costly small increase of S.Q. « Ignorance is precisely what you think you know or see, you can call it at best the blind spot, or at worst, a pair of blinders»- Anonymus Smith after consulting his ophtalmologist |
Giant leather ear attachments - Back in the 1980's or 90's I saw a hilarious product that even though they looked absolutely absurd, they actually made perfectly good sense. The product was a pair of large & I mean LARGE leather ear-shaped attachments which were advertised to provide additional surface area with which to capture more sound waves. It makes perfectly good sense & many wild animals have unusually large ears for that very purpose. I should have bought a pair at least for laughs. How many of us have cupped our ears with our palms to achieve the very same thing. LOL, LOL.
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“If his products don’t work for you then look to your system, or maybe your hearing is not capable, but his products work well”
No, not even close, loathsome reply. It could just as easily be true, in fact much more plausible from a Bayesian point of view, that the effect is in your head. I don’t mind people preferring tweaks, but dissing other peoples’ system and hearings is the stuff of kindergarten playgrounds. |
Wow, Bayesian, you say? Wow! You must be one a them probabilistic audiophiles. Heard about em, hardly ever met one. Do you ever listen? Or do you just blow smoke all over the interwebs?
Took me a good several months in the beginning to learn to listen good enough to reliably evaluate things like CDPs and DACs. At first and for quite some time they all sounded just the same to me. Not only me. Stood right behind a guy one time, he had driven 200 miles to hear this one Proceed DAC. Got a real nice demo. Whatever it was, they sounded absolutely identical to me. Guy says gee hate to tell you but they sound the same to me.
Would have been real easy at that point for me to be one of you who know only how to mock, deride, and insult. Me I wanted too much to learn how to build a really truly satisfying system to take the easy way out like that.
Which by the way is exactly what you're doing. Taking the easy way out. Learning to listen critically, developing the skills to properly evaluate what you're hearing, are not at all easy things to do.
So go ahead, crack your dopey little jokes, make your snide comments, puff your chest out pontificating utterly irrelevant statistical probabilities. Whatever floats your boat. Its your loss. Not mine.
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roxy54,
Do you have eyes ?
I said "proportionally priced".
No need to pay over 20 bucks for ANY digital cable. As long as they are within spec, which almost all of them are, you will be fine.
Esoteric digital cables are a waste of money.
There is error detecting & correcting logic in all digital gear. Besides, digital signals are much better in noisy environments than analog signals, nobody needs expensive digital cables.
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cakyol,
I'm still wondering about your ears. I've been in this game for many years, and there are HUGE difference in digital cables. I have three good quality cables, and all sound very different. Different wire, insulators and RCA's (I use single ended) all make a difference. I wish I couldn't hear the difference, like you. I would be a little richer. |
I’m still wondering about your ears. Hearing or not differences, this discriminative power is not linked to solely our listenings habits and history, or to our hearing fitness and potentials different for each of us, but this discriminative power is also function of the way the audio system is rightfully embedded mechanically, electrically, and acoustically... No way someone could hear some modifications in his system if the noise floor is too high or the acoustic too bad in his room, because of a lack of controls in these 3 dimensions... All the sour and sometimes angry discussions between people come from the simple ignorance that it is not only the quality of the electronical design that makes great audio experience, but MOSTLY the way the audio system is embedded in these 3 dimensions; never mind his price if the system is on an acceptable level of quality already, the way it has been embed or would be, or not, is the KEY..... |
theaudiotweak and everyone who chimed in on "patent pending",
I take the issue of advertising as "patent pending" seriously. Not to go into why anyone would have kept it in that state for 17 years, people have strange habits, but it does seem suspicious to say the least. Lawyer costs, or not.
The issue at hand is that we are talking about an item which is very unusual in its execution and proposed action so it may or may not work as advertised (according to two camps here). Decision to invest quite some amount of money in it is largely on credibility of the manufacturer and her/his claims. If said manufacturer has been marketing by claiming something untrue regarding patent ("pending") for years, how likely is it that the rest of the claims are believable? Not to mention that, if those links above are correct, it is even a punishable offense.
Way before writing this post, in fact before ever mentioning this patent issue in my posts, I tried to locate the patent for Hallograph with no success.
In short, scrutiny may be in order.
Having said that, it seems that claiming impossible-to-verify patents is not unheard of in audiophilia. There was at least one product by PPT that was falsely advertised as being patented. Even one of the Tekton Design patents has expired (fee related), but it may be deliberate and it may take some time to connect claims with actual patents that are active.
To be clear, I am not claiming that any of the products do not work as advertised. I simply state that claims about patents are dubious. We all have our pet peeves and this happens to be mine. |
roxy54- I'm still wondering about your ears. The problem isn't in the ears, its in the brain. It takes a lot of time and effort to compare and evaluate different components. Are they really going to do that when already convinced it can't possibly make any difference? Why? I wouldn't. It'd be nuts. Oh sure maybe every once in a while they might be able to just sit there all lazy and passive while someone else changes things for them. But then you know for sure exactly what will happen. The comparison won't be valid. It won't be double-blind. It won't be statistically significant. It will need to be repeated a bajillion times to be sure. It was done as part of a marketing demo. It wasn't the right music. The sun was in my eyes. The dog ate my homework. Its all so lame you have to wonder how it is that an adult with enough on the ball to be able to afford an internet connection isn't able to make up anything better than a bunch of excuses that have people thinking like mijostyn started it all off with: Of all the dumb, idiotic, profoundly stupid things I have ever seen.
And that my friend is a brain problem, not ears. |
millercarbon,
And then cakyol said:
"There is error detecting & correcting logic in all digital gear."
Yes, of course there is, but what does that have to do with digital cables? It is not the job of digital cables to correct errors in the digital stream.
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When we choose another person as an avatar? to represent ourselves it's because we think we share common qualities or characteristics. I posted this on another thread but I don't think people understood why. I think people on this thread will. The following are Einstein quotes which show what kind of a human being he was. Some interesting quotes from Einstein. "Hail to the man who went through life always helping others, knowing no fear, and to whom aggressiveness and resentment are alien." "The only thing more dangerous than ignorance is arrogance."
"Stay away from negative people. They have a problem for every solution."
"I speak to everyone in the same way, whether he is the garbage man or the president of the university." "I believe in intuitions and inspirations. I sometimes feel that I am right. I do not know that I am."
"Whoever undertakes to set himself up as a judge of Truth and Knowledge is shipwrecked by the laughter of the Gods." I don't see a resemblance, although in fairness to the person I am calling out I kind of agree it's not fair to judge something you have no experience with no matter how ridiculous it might appear. There have been posters who imply they purchased these tweaks and feel insulted. |
Did Albert Einstein really say all of that? |
I certainly lose on the "knowing no fear" part. The problem with modern digital communication is that you can not see or hear the other person's expression. Expression can turn a statement 180 degrees around. It is frequently not what you say but how you say it.
Where is cleeds? Have not seen him around in a while. |
glupson...Yes he did. At least the quotes are attributed to him.
mijostyn...Good point. |
And then cakyol said:
"There is error detecting & correcting logic in all digital gear."
Yes,
of course there is, but what does that have to do with digital cables?
It is not the job of digital cables to correct errors in the digital
stream.
What people usually mean when they say this, they think digital is perfect, since any errors are detected and corrected. Almost never do you find one who understands CD is an analog format in which timing matters. |
Valin has them. Valin Jonathan? |
Einstein by the way was an iconoclast with frizzy hair.
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cal91, "glupson...Yes he did. At least the quotes are attributed to him." That is why I asked and I doubt anyone knows for sure anymore. It is sure that everything seems more dignified with Einstein;s name attached to it. Well, maybe not everything. Even his picture cannot redeem millercarbon's posts. |
If you say the word "gullible" slowly enough, it sounds like "oranges". |
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You identify with Einstein's picture because you consider yourself an iconoclast and have frizzy hair? |
In descending order of ridiculousness, proportional to its price:
- cable lifters
- boutique fuses the tourmaline stones to put on each piece of speakers and electronic. |
I have to say that cable lifters while doing absolutely nothing look sort of cool and draw attention to those stupidly expensive cables some of us like to buy. It is fashion, nothing else.
As for fuses, they are there just to get U/L approval. U/L operates as if circuit breakers do not exist. Fuses do not protect the equipment. They are there to prevent a fire, but your circuit breakers do that. Lightening, as an example will blow transistors before the fuse has a chance to blow. The equipment winds up protecting the fuse! I bypass them with heavy gauge wire. If an amplifier is going to self destruct the fuse is not going to save it. When my old Krell KMA 100 burned it's output stage, the fuse remained intact and the circuit breaker did not blow. |
mijostyn..."Maybe millercarbon or mahgister will take them off our hands".
Why would you insult mahgister, one of the truly decent people who post on these forums? He has never ridiculed or insulted anyone, but has always shown kindness and understanding. I hope you will apologize to him if you haven't already. |
@ cal91, this is the problem with this type of communication. You can not see or hear the other person. Expression is totally missing and words never tell the whole story.
No insult was intended. Millercarbon and mahgister admit to liking this kind of stuff. To each his own. As for never "ridiculed or insulted anyone"?
My backside. Ask audio2design. I sincerely dislike politically correctness.
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Ask audio2design i generally answer people with arguments... If they use sarcasm i can too...In the context of my posting with him all that is clear...I even apologized when i make too much free useless sarcasm.... Millercarbon and mahgister admit to liking this kind of stuff. But the way you assimilate me to someone else, out of the context of a posting discussion directly with me,after saying that you dont bother to read my posts anymore, speaking about me in my back answering someone else and distorting the fact that, i NEVER bought any tweaks, i have always created mine myself with my listening experiments, was not appreciated by me... Then this " kind of stuff" you speak about is not MY stuff.... A costly equalizer or a costly tweak are for me the same "kind of stuff", not my homemade peanuts cost embeddings controls stuff... All perspectives are relative you see ? I know that you dont mean it as an insult, but a free sarcasm can be one , and if you take my place you will know why i was feeling insulted... I wish you the best like ever, even if i argued about some of your opinions....I never despise anyone for anything....I am too passionate being to be perfect tough ... |
Speaker cable lifters.
I guess there is a sucker born almost every minute? |
mijostyn...I am curious. How exactly do you define political correctness? Was I being politically correct? I'm not trying to start an argument. I am genuinely interested in your definition. Would you give me examples of what you consider to be political correctness? Again, I am not trying to start anything. |
The most expensive Accessory and never would I buy , on the stereotimes best of 2020 is the $2200 Fuses-Each .
Just when I thought the Synergistic Research 🍊 fuse at $160
peas pushing the envelope. I certainly advocate getting rid of the stock cheap lousy conductor steel fuse , But $2200 Each I don’t think so . If if I could afford them ,what if you had a power surge
and took out even 2 fuses ,that’s Waay to rmuch $$ for me. |
Cal91, exactly what I am not. So, I guess you don't have to worry :-)
Now lets get back to the insanity of $2200 fused and $1600 kindergarten wooden sculptures. |
Sorry to burst your bubble Mikey, but, the Hallographs really do work - and very well. I own four, and as strange as it may appear, they in-fact alter (expand or narrow) the sound-field when set up properly. Go figure. I wouldn't trade them and they have been a permanent addition to my system for some time.
Now, IMHO, what I found dumb, idiotic and profoundly stupid is Machina Dynamica's "Clever Little Clock". I bought two and have found them to be pure, triple-filtered, grade-A, snake-oil. Just wondering how allowed myself to get snookered??? But MD's president is a clever little salesman and that's the truth.
Btw, whatever happened to Geof Kait? I found his counter-intuitive audiophile banter always amusing - except when I took the bait from Kait and bought two Clever Clocks. (As you can tell, I'm still a bit salty.)
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the Hallographs really do work - and very well. I am not surprized at all and this device inspired my own experiments.... Anybody with attentive normal ears can listen to sometimes minute modification of S.Q. with changes in geometry ( form of the room) topology (Doors and windows) and acoustical properties of different materials added or substracted from his room... Anyway who can sell many bull shit non working product costing more than one thousand bucks on a long period of times with success, fooling everybody, save political leaders or religious one who do it daily ? Almost nobody.... It is the reason the device simplicity and evident potential inspire me even if i never listened to it... I am not a believer but imagination and common sense can sometimes walk a longer way than beliefs based on limited knowledge or limited experience.... « So on go the pendulum of thinking, from beliefs to doubts, never one without the other at a walking pace. Some walk tough on only one leg, deluded by their eternal credulous or sceptic beliefs»-Anonymus smith |
In support of the fuse. Mijo, You are wrong. Sure, there are failure modes where the fuse fails to protect the circuit. But there are many more failure modes where the fuse will save your ass if not also your power transformer. Power transformers are very expensive and sometimes impossible to replace without engaging the services of a custom transformer winder. Guess how many of those remain in existence in the USA? Your circuit breakers are probably at least 15A in capacity. How would your preamplifier look after it passed 15A for long enough to blow the circuit breaker? Pretty toasty I suspect. I am surprised at you. And if lightning (not "lightening") were to strike your system, ain't nothing gonna save it.
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