I’m in the market for a newly used DAC, based on reviews I’m considering the playback designs Merlot, Vermeer, Grimm mu2. I prefer a well balanced sound more analog like. I hoping that user experiences with these dacs OR others that might fit the bill will respond
I did tried Denafrips, Musician R2R DAC’s , but the best DAC handbuilt in MN usa I think is Audio Mirror Tube R2R DAC’s.
I had Audio Mirror IIISE DAC ( one of the first DAC"s ) , so if you think about the parts inside vs DAC cost, this DAC had one of the best and most capacitors you can buy Duelung copper $250 each, vs if you think Holo May KTE have some capacitors hidding the brand and Mundorf cheaper line $30 each and between those capacitors alone sound is very different. Read here the sound: https://www.humblehomemadehifi.com/Cap.html , as you can see they all color the sound a little, so Audio Mirror decided to go pure copper Lundhal Transformers ( $600 each I think ) coupled in the next model Tubadour IV is what I have now $5k retail plus some extra’s in the linear power supply ( made in Italy ) and jitter, clock updates and if you think about the parts probably almost a have $ vs retail is the parts, compared like Holo probably 15% is parts, and Audio Mirror probably 40-50% in parts vs Retail cost, and on top you can Tube roll 6922 one tube inside if you like to adjust to your liking https://www.audioasylum.com/audio/faq/joes-tubes.html ( different tube roll ) . I can’t wait till I get the Tubadour V. So my Tubadour IIISE sounded so good, tonality is spot on vs Musician Pegasus was warmer, top rolled off for sure, only better thing was a little more center image. But When I got IV - oh boy, center image and details in the space came to live, layers in the space with weight, imaging - I could almost touch the singer is like in my room , nothing fatigue and sound liquid transparent ,open, tonality is perfect very neutral sounding. LTE is probably good also, but again - capacitor coupled and not expensive one. Another probably good is HV line from T+A is build to sound like tube, I believe is a good brand to but I didn’t hear them all. But Audio Mirror is R2R and tube and best transformers coupled , Gaia Feet,, Furutech socket ! so nothing in the market I see better yet. Good luck!
I struggled with CD as a Source, but when I was to be demo'd and with immediacy agree to the Purchase of Tube Output DAC with a Valve Regulated Power Supply. I have had CD as a Parity Source used in conjunction with an Analogue Source.
We went from the Audio Mirror Tubadour III to the IV to the V and now the Wave DAC. I have never heard anything so transparent, airy or accurate in terms of instrument density and tone. We compared it in our system with the Weiss Helios, and are very happy with the Audio Mirror.
I bought a Denafrips Pontus 655th edition dac from a member here over a year ago to see what all the fuss was about. It was solid, heavy, well built, but sounded like crap. I was confused. I ran it constantly for weeks and still no improvement. Very disappointing. Packed it up and sold it pdq to a member who never said boo when he got it, since I was crossing my fingers it wasn't broken during my run with it.
It was vailed, grungy, and so boring. What might I have done wrong with it? USB in, analog out to preamp was all I asked of it. Do they have a long break in period (it was used btw)?
Anyways, I still have my Bricasti but am curious about the sound of other brands so enjoy reading of other's experiences.
I have an older Denafrips Pontus ll and I really enjoy the sound. It’s definitely not analytical and it’s not overly warm either. Maybe the super deal comes along I’ll get one of the new Venus 15th addition open box or slightly used.
We have to keep in mind that the A in DAC stands for Analog, so in order for a DAC to sound great, both the conversion and Analog output stage must be good. I like Benchmark products which have an astounding SN ratio, and some features found on very few other DACS like the +3db of digital headroom, adjustable output gain (for use with both pro and consumer gear) and both digital and analog volume control. https://benchmarkmedia.com/blogs/application_notes/digital-filter-overload-distortion
● My Grandparents lived through the depression, saved the first, last, and every dime they ever made. They lived well, and died with a large fortune! So, if I were to buy something as foolish as this DAC, they would dis-own me in heaven!!!
But to each their own. This looks like a deal if anyone is interested.
My dacs are DCS: Paganini and Elgar, as well as my Arcam FMJ CD23 Ring CD player, which is the reason I even bought DCS. After 25 years of having a Ring converter (the Arcam), and having tried and lived with many others, I decided I had to stick with a Ring converter dac. Both Arcam and DCS really DO pay tribute to the music.
Both bring the music to life in a way that is mesmerizing (one sits there smiling at how complete the presentation is, even as one is just thrilled to death musically). Most dacs sound great, but do truly they have the "Breath Of Life"? Not too many do that; they’re more concerned with having ’great bass,’ or ’great treble’ or ’great midrange.’ Music, however, is more than that, and DCS appears to have gotten their "1s" and "0s" pretty correct.
I have had a Schiit Yggdrasil, Bryston BDA and two other dacs, and they were all highly competent. But none of them quite reached the experience of what it sounds like when a cellist is sitting 6 feet away from you (this happens in students' recitals in music teachers’ homes). The DCS does this (feeling of the instruments moving in the likelike way they do in real life) extremely well. And while things like soundstaging and imaging are not what I look for anymore (after 40 years in this hobby, I expect the soundstage to be well-formed), the DCS presents a much airier, larger venue than any previous processors. And the images are very individualized. None of the musicians-sitting-on-top-of-each-other in the soundstage! No crowding!!
But the music is where DCS excels. The tonal palette of DCS converters is wide, so there are more "colors" of the orchestra. Strings are "silvery," brass is "golden", double basses ('wooden') have the correct amount of body (internal volume and are not "shrunk" in size within the soundstage (most of the other digital I have heard "shrinks" the size of instruments, which it shouldn’t). The pluck of classical guitar is thrilling to hear, complete with the harmonic information that follows (another thing a lot of digital doesn’t excel at: ambience retrieval) with space around the guitar.
The Schiit has a more ’direct’ sound, as though someone is sitting 6th row center (considered the ideal seating in a symphonic music hall). The DCS is a bit like 9th row center: the sound leaping off the guitars is very much akin to what it is live, but one also hears the ambience of the recording venue, and that includes the side and back walls (which none of the digital I had prior to this, revealed) and the floor (usually inaudible unless the dac has stellar low-level capabilities).
If I wanted to compare, I could compare the Arcam FMJ CD 23 player I have. The Arcam is fantastic at picking up even the slightest change in "touch" on an instrument. If they pluck/slap/ a string, one can hear the variation from second to second. But the Arcam presents a much smaller venue, vaguer in its ambience retrieval than the DCS, which makes it sound as though the orchestra was moved to a much larger venue during intermission and now you hear the venue clearly.
DCS is great a presenting a complete picture of what is going on musically. What we all hope from our converters.
I wanted to buy the Playback Designs Dream ($24k). I even purchased the PlayBack Designs STREM-IF for $3k which streams into the Dream via PLINK.
However, I bought a Schitt Yggi+ OG DAC until I raised the cash. After a 30-day burn in, I thought I do not need to pay an extra $21k for a bit better. This DAC was amazing, lively, clean, and a bass monster.
The PBD DAC designer and the Schitt DAC designer are not people that buy a chip and put it into a chassis. They both have about 30 years of digital experience and have unique designs in their respective DACs.
I sold my STREAM-IF and also bought the Yggi+ LIM (a warm rolled off DAC) and then converted it to the Yggi+ MIB (less warm and not rolled off). Both of the other 2 DACs are not as loved by me as the OG. Unfortunately, the Yggi+ OG is no longer available due to a part no longer being available.
I state all this because Jason Stoddard of Schitt (not the DAC designer) is touting the new DAC they are releasing in Aug as the best they ever made. I am converting my MIB to this new variant (unheard) called the Byggi. My conversion cost is $1500, and the new cost is $3500 (or more).
BTW - my Yggi+ OG was taken to a headphone meetup in Colorado and compared with the Mola Mola Tambaqui. My friend whose audio ears are incredible told me he liked the Tambaqui a bit more during the test but on a blind test he said he likely would not be able to tell the difference. The headphone used was the RAAL 1995 Immanis, which some consider the best headphone in the world.
@mitch2I just read that you now have a Aries-Cerat Helene. I surprised that you have switched from the Mojo Audio DAC's. Although you said that the Helene is better can you tell me if the Mystique X SE sounds similar?
The Vermeer looks like an interesting piece. Very analog like with preamp functionality. If dac only 5k max, but if preamp built in could stretch further to 8k range based on sale of convergent ultimate preamp .
For around $5,000 I'd look hard at the new Denafrips Terminator 15th R2R ladder DAC. Denafrips DACs all lean more to the sound signature that you are seeking, and are just plain brilliant IMO. I own the Pontus and have helped a bunch friends install Pontus and Terminator DACs in their systems. Mapman58 here on Agon is a reseller, and he has them for $5,300 I believe?
i use Nos mainly. Occasionally I use the over sampling filters. The Terminator is an excellent dac and at the price point is system matching and preference.
+1 R2R topology +1 Denafrips products. I have several deltasigma DACs in lower systems that measure “world class” but pretty much sound the same, except for the most expensive best measuring model, all crisp, clean, clear, transparent, neutral, linear, etc. The top of the line has all of that with just a little extra across the board.
They all sound great, but…in my “main rig” I run a Pontus II fed by an IRIS DDC, and big 300b/845 tube amp into Klipschorns. Simply sublime, until I turn it up, then WOW! I also believe source plays just as important, if not more important role. Bucket list would be Grimm MU-1 into a Terminator Plus with top of the line clock.
Everything matters, some things more than others, source, DAC, amp, preamp, speakers, room, etc. all with good synergy is the destination. Enjoy the journey, once you think you’ve arrived, there’s always somewhere else to go.
My experience is for not much money the Denafrips Pontus ll is a very good sounding dac. In fact I purchased the top terminator model and preferred the sound of the Pontus. However the Holo May Kte is what stopped my search. If you don’t care about DSD the Schitt YGGY is also a good try.
I recently landed an Audio-GD R7HE Mk3 for comparison to my Esoteric K-01X. The R2R GD slightly edges out the K01X with USB input from a Sonore Sig Rendu Deluxe, with further gains over I2S input from Pareto Audio’s new single mode FO EN to I2S node. Couldn’t be more pleased with the change, though admittedly outside the $5K ceiling post-tariiffs.
@mitch2Just read your post from yesterday. I don't know how long you have had your new Mojo DAC but have you noticed a difference from the X SE. From the website I read their where a few changes and some seem more for protection. Also you said you had a monarch. I had not heard of that DAC before. I did notice the chip is the one Ben at Mojo said he was wanting to use the next generation. What do you do to upgrade? That seems like a very affordable way to get to a really good DAC.
If you want analog like sound with superb resolution and dynamic impact, I suggest one of several Lampizator Poseidon DACs currently available listed in HiFi Shark. Otherwise, the less expensive used DACs, there are another 28 Lampizator tube DACs available listed at that site. I own the Poseidon.
I have an MSB Discrete DAC with a Premier Power Base, with Revelation Audio umbilicals. I can't really say what the DAC sounds like, other than to say that I like it and the improvement in my system from the MSB Analog DAC that it replaced, which was also great. What I can say specifically is that the volume control on the DAC is about equivalent to the ARC LS28SE preamp. After running the DAC direct to the amp using its built in volume control, I put the LS28SE in and honestly couldn't tell the difference. No improvement. But when I put in the ARC REF6, it was a big step forward, and that is my current set up.
Confused about your price range since you mentioned the MU2 ($18K) but then you said $5K.
Re: DACs, I liked the Mearson DAC1 Mk2 quite a bit for its smooth musicality but liked my Mojo Audio Mystique X SE better, and also liked the Mojo better than the Tambaqui. Still have the Mojo DAC but also an Aries Cerat Helene, which I like even better. However, at that level, the incremental improvements seem to get smaller. I would still like to hear:
Plaback Designs Dream DAC
Grimm MU2
Totaldac D-1 Bi-Unity
Meitner MA3i
EMM Labs DA2 V2
Aries Cerat Kassandra
Some of those have an integrated preamp, but may still be above your price range. If your price is around $5K, consider a Mojo Audio Y DAC.
The one that blew me away recently, given the price, was an old Monarchy 22B with BB PCM-63 DAC chips, for which I paid $350. Tonally in line with the naturally organic sounding Mojo Audio and Aries Cerat DACs along some of the best bass I have heard from a DAC. A bit less refined than the Mojo and AC DACs but, otherwise, very listenable. I am considering having it upgraded.
More important than topology is how that topology is implemented. Yes, some chip dacs can be bright, analytical, others can be relaxed, very analog like sound, I have both R2R and Sabre chip dac at the moment, both very analog like, timbre and timing very much like my vinyl setup. And its not just the dac, same dac can sound very different depending on entire audio system which includes room, ac, and entire streaming setup. For streaming setups timing is critical, the same dac can sound digital or very analog like depending on clocking implemented in network, streamers and/or DDC
Every response I appreciate.
beauty is in the eye of the beholder as they say. However the sound signature of a piece does standout. r2R are more relaxed sounding whereas some chips sound bright.
budget wise I have limits . 5k is probably the max unless it’s a piece that can serve well to replace my convergent audio Ultimate mkii preamp.
@daveteaukI'm not an ASR believer by any means although I do believe measurements matter. I have a relatively expensive DAC ($5600) and I do believe that there are differences in sound between DACS. I just don't believe most people have the listening skills or ability to fully understand the differences without careful comparisons. Believe whatever you want! It's your money!
Hans Beekhuyzen has the GRIMM in his top reference system and touts it his reference choice and best-of-breed determined by performance and his not insignificant budget strata .
I went from my trusty old, and very good, Stello DA 220 MkII to a Denafrips Pontus 15th a while ago, and was staggered by how much better it was, but ONLY after it'd had a few weeks 'running in' - it sounded flat and lifeless when new.
I was so enamoured with the beautiful, musical, detailed, dynamic, smooth, almost analoge sound that I've just taken delivery of their Venus 15th, which, afer my wonderful experience with my Pontus 15th, I have great expectations for - once it's run in - although after just a few hours warm up, is starting to sound good.
@willywonka- Total rubbish! 'Your' listening skills may not be good enough, but plenty of peoples are, mine included. Don't judge others' skills by your own.
Unless you are comparing DACS to each other in the same system one after another you wouldn't have a clue how they sound. Peoples critical listening skills just aren't that good especially after a certain amount of time has passed!
Grimm MU2 here. - it’s hard to isolate the DAC specifically since it’s a combination of streamer, DAC, Preamp, but it’s clearly a step or two above my prior combination id separates, which I absolutely loved, that included a Sonnet Pasithea DAC. And for reference, I had no desire to upgrade my DAC. I love the Pasithea. My move was made to get a preamp that accepted analog inputs and simplify in the process. I didn’t expect the upgrade SQ I got.
The MU2 It is very musical, transparent, and analog sounding.
I got the Denafrips Venus2 12th (R2R) which i got a couple of years ago, is still my got to DAC. It sounds analog like to me as compared to my previous Chord QuTest and I find it better to my taste as compared to the Holo Dac KTE.
The Holo Dac is very good, but just a matter of taste. either one is a winner.
Hello dvdgreco! Emotiva makes a remarkable deck for the $$. Very smooth and musical. I'm a musician and know how instruments really sound. I've bought and listened extensively to Sony, a couple of those bug named thumb drive sized plug ins, SMSLs, Meridian, Pre Box, and quite a few others. I really liked the Sony, but when I tried the Emotiva (there is only one model) - wow, clear winner! I use a homebrew passive preamp, Starke Sound power amp (highly recommended) and Magnepan LRS (and LRS+) with crossovers from GRS labs and DIY subs. Super transparent. On the Messiah recording from the Belgian orchestra with four German soloists, you can tell the wall behind the orchestra is made of bricks. That's transparent! If you can spend thou$ands on DACs, spend it on cruise tickets to places where you can hear lots of live music. Keep smiling!
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