What does one purchase after owning horns?

Mrdecibel, only the part above the quote was directed to Atmasphere.

Pass the popcorn.

Dan ed. Thank you for clearing that up. I guess all of the readers of this forum (but me) knew who "they" both are, without the "other" name being mentioned. What was I thinking. Again, sorry. By the way, your system looks great. In all my years involved in forums, as well as the industry, I have never run across individuals such as Unsound and Weseixas. Sure there have been proponents of this verses that, but never to the extent shown by these two. The fact that Jim Thiel understood and accepted my admiration for horns and, helped me improve upon them, shows a special kind of "class" that some individuals have, and, some not. Hopefully, they will learn to get along with others. It would be a welcome miracle ! However, as Atmasphere has mentioned, it keeps things interesting. But I do disagree with something Atmasphere said when welcoming opinions by "them". I do not trust their experiences, either them not knowing, or, not having enough listening exposure. Although they both claim to be experts and have listened to it all. I can understand why one does not like horns, but please......One day they will understand that one person likes chocolate and another likes vanilla(actually, Weseixas sought of said this just recently). So maybe there is hope. Have a good day ! Always MrD

Not all horn speakers are the same. Some are better than others. I have not heard all of them. If I had, I could offer one person's opinion, only one person's opinion. Some of you seem to feel that you are speaking on behalf of many people when you express your opinion. Likewise, can it even be called an opinion if it is not sufficiently informed?

Very few of you have ever heard horns like mine and I would bet that none of you have spent significant time with them. They are quite scarce. Yet outright blanket condemnation is proffered by members who have found some other kind of horn inadequate or offensive.

It's like basing your opinion about women on an overheard conversation between Rosie O'Donnell and Donald Trump. Yes, one of them is a woman - I'll leave it to you to figure out which is witch.

Weseixas and Unsound are a sad fact of life. Party crashers with bad intentions will always arrive just when the collective mood is at its most ebullient. As Dan-Ed has pointed out repeatedly, those two show up to drop a turd in the punchbowl every time the word "horn" appears in a thread title. They seem unable to help themselves. In their minds, we need their sobering influence. In my mind, they need to evaporate.

More personal attacks by the zealots.

And so it came to pass...
That after an eon of disagreement, the horn lovers were verily converted to dynamic speakers, and alas, the dynamic lovers...you guessed it, fell in love with HORNS!

Play nice guys, there's nothing important enough about audio to make someone angry--it's a hobby.

Good listening, and PEACE
Larry

"...there's nothing important enough about audio to make someone angry--it's a hobby."

Very well said, Larry.

I think if people met in the hallway at an audio show, instead of on this internet forum / virtual battlefield, they'd instantly become friends.

Actually, I had just that experience a couple of years ago... meeting someone at RMAF that I'd squabbled with (and frankly been rather rude towards). He posted earlier in this thread, and he's a helluva nice guy.

Duke

Like a fly that I swatted several times, but keeps returning to annoy me. Not a wasp, bee or mosquito, because they inflict pain, but just a fly, a regular household fly, just an annoyance....shoo shoo.

Larry - Those guys continually invade church services and harass the faithful about their beliefs, all the while calling them zealots. If they are of a different faith, let them stay at home and worship as they see fit.

Do a search of horns and you will see that they both do the same tiresome thing every time a thread concerning horns appears.

As Dan-Ed said, we are all aware that they don't like horns. There is no need for perpetual harassment from them.

I suggest these "two" read the original op again, and the accompanying paragraph. Very plainly he speaks positively about horns, but not other designs he has listened to. Duh........... Bass to horn integration was what he lacked. He had dynamics which he loved. Unsound, you think your 3.5s would have satisfied him. No, because they are lifeless and contrived (to some of us). Stop annoying us. We all sent Renmeister away because of the two of you. You would not let the horn loving community help him. Shame shame, shoo shoo.

Well, this thread can only be compared to ongoing MM/MC debate. And let's not bring the insects in; they have nothing to do with it and somehow manage to enjoy life while they have it. Who knows what they "think" of us?

Now get good speakers Magico maybe.

I don't think Renmeister cares much based on his absence here....my suggestion would be for Totem speakers, which are exceptionaly expressive and nuanced.

Dave_b, I agree about the Totems and would add the Reference 3A Grand Veenas while you can still get the Murata supertweeter. But neither comes near the speed of compression driver horns. Nevertheless, I will probably not go back to horns for a third time.

Duke,
You are absolutely correct.

The internet creates a sense of, or rather actions of 'false bravatto'. Things that nobody would say in person, they'll write to another person confidently, from the safety of their own home.

Lots of bullies created by the internet.

Good listening,
Larry

Dave_b, I agree about the Totems and would add the Reference 3A Grand Veenas while you can still get the Murata supertweeter. But neither comes near the speed of compression driver horns. Nevertheless, I will probably not go back to horns for a third time.

More personal attacks by the zealots.

Wow, horn guys can be high strung!

Must be all those dynamics!

Makes me wonder.

Totem's are not a bad idea but you need a really juicy amp!

Zealot- According to Wikipedia - noun meaning : 'adherent, loyalist, enthusiast, patriot. Thank you Unsound for complimenting us ! You need to get over yourself....

Mapman, certainly, but there are problems for all varieties of speakers. As I said, I miss the speed of horns but am happy with my Tidals.

I use a med efficient ribbon hybrid loudspeaker in one of my systems, enjoyable has much detail can listen for long hours without fatigue like my main horn system. Ribbons today are now tube friendly and more efficient than dynamics that are not horn loaded. So can match the highly efficient woofers that are available in legion today. Many company's offering med eff. hybrid ribbon designs. For me thats what I enjoy when not using my horn systems. And stays in topic. But I do also offer such just to disclose. Most available are around 95db designs or about %5 efficient 95% waisted as heat. Compared to many dynamics 88db 4 ohm at .60% over 99% of power waisted as heat. This can mater sonically since this heat is in amp and voice coils thus thermo compression is the result. There is also a end cost to owners more power used on system sometimes $100s more a year. More wear of mechanical parts due to thermo stress. More heat in home environment that HVAC must handle again more cost. Plus the cost to nature if thats a issue for you. There are other benefits if one looks for over 91db 8 ohm designs.

I am not sure how this thread will continue from here, if at all, so I just wanted to say I have enjoyed this "post", even though there were some rough spots. As a horn owner, and more importantly, an audiophile/music lover, I feel that I have made some fine aquaintances here, even of some who are not owners of horns. The exchanging of ideas, attitudes and good information, was enlightening and entertaining. I still feel Audiogon is a great place to be, so it will be my pleasure to continue to see you all again. Mr D

Uh, huh ......

There are not many things we can be sure of , except rain comes from the clouds , sun lights up the sky and horn zealots know how to cry .

Weseixas, I try to be nice, and you, must once again, prove you are an A hole. I will say your bug species is more enduring than I had anticipated. Shoo shoo.......

Thanks for making my case Decibel , your accusations have no recourse for they are lacking in substance.

There are many speakers available which are very dynamic without getting into horns, again you guys are here promoting phoobie dust science and ignorance by volume, a regular MO with you guys and when you dont get your way then it becomes personal.

Not everyone enjoys the discombobulated integration and coloration that multiple horns suffer from , if you like that , so be it , now try to understand that others dont and prefer to discuss just that.

* Macrojack has admitted to not hearing above 10 K
* you have admitted to selling horns,as a sales boy
* Duke sells a 2 way waveguide he markets as a horn
* Dan_ed is all about horns and promoting horns.
* JohnK sells horns .

There is ALWAYS A VESTED INTEREST WITH you guys and every conversation is crowded with more and more phoobie dust science and of course the most vile rethoric.

Myself i have 2 audio system and many speakers, dynamic, open baffle dynamic, ribbons, ribbon hybrids, ESL, ESl hybrids no horns , they dont work for me and i haven't told anyone here to get rid of their horns as you have about anything else that is not a horn, nor is your back handed approach necessary, rubbing up to the late JIM THIEL then putting down unsounds decision to buy one, look in the mirror your sanded mangina approach is nothing but weak.

There are ESL's that will blow the socks off any horn speaker in a domestice environment, as so ribbon, ribbons hybrids and multiple driver dynamic speakers, they have done so for decades and guess what , will continue to do so regardless of how many times you use your bully pulpit, i would also implore anyone interested to get out and listen not everyone requires 120+db to enjoy their music, but if you do i'm sure there is something for you..

Regards,

Weseixas, You still do not understand the words of Renmeister in his original post, amazing. Except for you and Unsound, my words have plenty of substance, here on this thread anyway. My comments about Unsound's 3.5s are without question true statements, when talking about dynamic range and scale. How dare you accuse me of rubbing up to the late Jim Thiel. He was a fine gentleman and engineer, and if not for him, my cabinets might have taken longer to modify. I do like other products of his, although I still prefer horns. "Blow the socks off" statements once again shows your ignorance of the fact that people like what they like, but this is not good enough for you. So who has proven who's case ! I wish my system (and home) would allow for 120db, but I will stick with my 100db levels. And, not many of your "stated" speakers play cleanly at that level, so you can keep them. As a die hard Jazz lover, not many speakers can play back Miles or Coltrane any where close to my Lascalas. Remember, here, on this thread, you and Unsound are the outcasts. That's all, for now ........

I can discuss technical issues but am not very good at emotional exchanges, so I will bow out.

Duke

Weseixas said:

Thanks for making my case Decibel , your accusations have no recourse for they are lacking in substance.

This is after the previous two "value-added" comments regarding horns, speaker technology, and whatnot by Weseixas:

Uh, huh ......

and

There are not many things we can be sure of , except rain comes from the clouds , sun lights up the sky and horn zealots know how to cry .

None of this adds to any intelligent discourse.

*********

Your next statement in your last post is weird.

There are many speakers available which are very dynamic without getting into horns, again you guys are here promoting phoobie dust science and ignorance by volume, a regular MO with you guys and when you dont get your way then it becomes personal.

From any reasonable external observer's point of view, you have been "making it personal".

*********

Your following post:

Not everyone enjoys the discombobulated integration and coloration that multiple horns suffer from , if you like that , so be it , now try to understand that others dont and prefer to discuss just that.

makes an assumption (that multiple horns suffer from discombobulated integration and coloration) which is not supported by anything other than your personal opinion. Show the science please. I have yet to find someone who can show me that by their very nature, two horns are BY DEFINITION not able to integrate as well as the same two drivers without horns attached. If you can provide the science/math to prove it, please do.

*********

* Macrojack has admitted to not hearing above 10 K
* you have admitted to selling horns,as a sales boy
* Duke sells a 2 way waveguide he markets as a horn
* Dan_ed is all about horns and promoting horns.
* JohnK sells horns .

There is ALWAYS A VESTED INTEREST WITH you guys and every conversation is crowded with more and more phoobie dust science and of course the most vile rethoric[sic].

Your bullet points do not prove a case one way or another. Nothing in them suggests that the people are not right.
1) Whether macrojack can hear above 10k has nothing to do with horns or not horns.
2) so what. Someone in my family sold cookies as a girl scout and that does not make me biased towards them, even if I were to say that they were the best cookies under the sun. That is a personal opinion (which I don't happen to believe).
3a) Duke sells that speaker, but if you bothered to read his website, the word "horn" is mentioned only at the bottom, and it is to contrast his waveguide speaker with earlier horns, many of which had colorations.
3a) Duke also sells ESLs and has long been a proponent of them.
4) Dan_ed seems to enjoy his speakers as much as you enjoy yours. He is not so much a promoter of horns as a defender of them in the face of repeated attacks from the likes of you and Unsound, who have yet to come up with anything other than "they're colored" as a reason for attacking horns and those who listen to them.
5) Johnk makes horns. He makes speakers. He is a cabinetmaker. If you want better bases for your ESLs, he will likely build them for you. If you wanted custom-made dynamic speakers, he would probably build them for you too. As it turns out, he thinks horns sound good, and he has provided sound reasons why they might work better (against your "they're colored" reasons why they don't work). It could also be that he builds horns BECAUSE they sound better.

When I was in junior high school and high school, I made my money by mowing lawns. Unlike some others, I also did a lot of other landscaping and garden care which was based on good science (everything from run-off management, proper mulching and fertilization, to grass mixes, and small tree care). I had purchased an expensive lawnmower BECAUSE it was good, and better at mulching than other lawnmowers. I recommended to my customers that they allow me to use my lawnmower rather than theirs. I did not charge them for it. My recommendation, and "defense" (explanation for my recommendation if someone asked) did not mean that I had a vested interest in mulching mowers.

On the other hand, I would suggest that your history of bashing horns and horn speaker adherents would mean that you have a vested interest in continuing to bash them. What would happen if you actually found a pair of horns that you liked?

Personally, I like any speakers which sound nice. I happen to have horns. I do not think mine are less colored than the most accurate box speakers I have ever heard, but they were a lot less expensive, easier to drive, and they sound better than anything I have heard in the price range - which is, admittedly, not everything out there. However, I would bet substantial money that my horns will be able to be driven by a wider variety of good amplifiers than any ESLs you can find. If I had a lot of space and lived in the US, I might have SoundLabs, and I have always liked really big Magnepans. I had ESLs before and upgraded to my current horns because of weak bass and weak bass integration of the ESLs and their dynamic woofer.

"Blow the socks off" is a scientific term? I have yet to find a pair of ESLs which will work as well in a small-medium space as Altec 19s (which I am choosing as "horns" because they have a horn and Audiokinesis has praised them before - which should be a good enough definition for you). The Altecs are not the best thing out there in horns, but they sound really great (especially when modified like my friend's), and can be put in a smallish room. If I had tried to stick full-range ESLs (like big SoundLabs) in the same room, I would never be able to get over room issues. Full-range ESLs would, in practice, be about the worst thing possible in a small room where my friend runs his Altec 19s.

But I get the feeling by writing all this down I am probably just feeding the troll...

T_bone, while I agree with you, I find this entire pro/anti horn thing too reminiscent of subject v. objective discussions-probably best left to late in the night bar discussions. I have never understood why those not wanting to have horns feel they need to tell others that. I certainly don't care why they feel that way.

As I have said, I very much miss their quickness and think no other driver even gets close. But I also think compression drivers on horns are a must for this. Nevertheless, after owning seven different horn systems, I haven't had them in several years. Some horn systems have so much space between the horns, such as the Avantgarde Trios, that you hear one instrument in different locations depending on which note is being played. Also to get really deep bass you need monster horns.

I have basically chosen a three was ceramic driver, 187 pound each system with an excellent tweeter and good bass down to probably 40 Hz. Does a snare drum sound real? Of course, not. Am I happy? Yes.

I would just suggest that you ignore Weseixas.

T bone You and I (and everyone else other than Unsound)see eye to eye (ear to ear)about Weseixas. They have their description of us(zealots)and we have ours of them(trolls). He speaks nonsense. He has actually made statements about engineers who make the recordings, indicating they are deaf and lack taste. So he is knocking everyone. Wow. I am looking forward to more garbage from these guys. Duke, if you can learn to ignore these 2, we would still love to hear from you and what you have to say. Remember, on this particular thread, Weseixas and Unsound are by themselves, they are the out casts, even though they do not see it. It shows psychological problems these to have about being grown ups, and men, for that matter(as I am referred to as boy). This is a joke. My psychiatrist friend has read some of this thread(he is not interested in audio), and rather than laugh about these 2, he has found rather disturbing behavior patterns. So I am loving this all. Sorry to see Duke bow out. There is power in numbers. Again, it has been my pleasure to part of this.

Some own "many speakers", listing among them six differing types... Others instead, own just "one" pair that they are happy with!! My JBL 4550's will be in my living room when I move. :)

P.S. T bone I had a great time during the '96 Stereophile show, showing off, for 3 wonderful days, the Eurythmie speakers, along with other Jadis gear. I think they are great !

T-Bone the irony,

Anyway thanks for quoting me, gives your response some content .

Regards,

Weseixas, I think T-Bone has a good point- where is the science that says that horns are 'discombobulated'? Do you have a link that is peer-reviewed?

One boy's personal opinion.....I know many many musicians who own horn speakers, from simple Klipsch Heresys to, you name it. I can tell you that these individuals are not wrong in their musical assessments. What they all have in common is the day to day exposure to live music. So, if horns sound closest to live music ( dynamics,scale,speed,prat,etc. ), to these individuals ( even with all of their "opinionated" problems mentioned by you know who ), who is he to say otherwise. Again, his words are trivial and mean nothing, but yet he continues to speak. I say to these two : keep bringing it on.

Maybe horns aren't necessarily fatiguing but the horn zealot's appear to have mostly chased the non-believer's away from this thread about what to do after horns nontheless?

I'll speak treason and assert that there are many good cost and sound quality competitive options after good horns that also include excellent dynamics, including but not limited to other horns, if horns are what toot your YNW.

One of the best musical experiences of a non horn system was a pair of MBL 101s in a room that was, admittedly, too small for them(I spent many hours, on different days, listening, as they were owned by a close friend). The sound was incredible and very involving. I could easily live with these. Yes, I said it. Connected to them was a top end tube preamp and a powerful, top end ss amp. Because I value so many traits that horns possess, it is hard for me to ultimately feel satisfied with many a speaker. I can appreciate time coherence and spatial imaging of many of these high end systems, but if the sound cannot convey that "musician magic", if you will, it does not keep my interest. But, again I say it, to each his own, and let's all live happily ever after. P.S. : "Musician magic" is my wording, of the ability to follow, and feel, each musician in a recording.

Not chased, just waiting for the zealots to inhale.
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/zealots
The issue of dynamic compression seems to be academic, after all we've had decades of practical use, and minuscule amount of reported failure. Even the author of the provided link suggests what ever deficiencies might exist, might not be audible.
Perhaps Mrdecibel should consider just who should get over whom.
Attempts to use gang bullying, and suggestions of psychological shortcomings of those who don't agree, are pathetic attempts to negate opposing points of view.
One could easily return the question of; where is the science to prove that horns don't get in their own way in such a manner to compromise coherence?
I'm quite done with all of this, but I leave of my own accord, not because I've been chased away, and I reserve the right to return, should I feel the want.
BTW, I still stand by my first post on this thread; the VMPS's might be worth a consideration.

mbl is certainly one design that can raise the bar in many regards but differently as might good horns and other more esoteric designs.

I am of the opinion that there is only so much that can be achieved with conventional dynamic box designs, though good ones can certainly still be most enjoyable. More unconventional approaches must be taken to raise the bar further in particular aspects of sound. Horns are one approach that can in terms of dynamics. mbl is another. Walsh drivers like those in the reasonably affordable and compact OHM Walsh speakers I am partial to are another.

I will not even try to respond to Unsound, but applaud his exit.

For giggles, I just read Unsound's 2nd post. Are you kidding ? Begging for a rebuttal ? The OP wants something else ? Other designs are capable of the same dynamics ? I will leave it at that !

I was at a live performance this weekend at the local symphony hall and one of the things I was taking note of was dynamics.

My thoughts at the end was that not all live (or recorded) performances are equally "dynamic". The venue size, acoustics and where you are listening from are big factors.

At this particular event, the sound quality was very good but nothing that a good home system of most any ilk would have any problem matching, at least in most peoples rooms at home.

I have been to other performances where the dynamics were absolute top notch and also then came home to find my rig to be up to the task of delivering equal results in terms of dynamics within the confines of my various listening room.

I have no horns.

I have also heard some top notch horns that absolutely sparkled and were jaw dropping in regards to dynamics and ability to generate musical involvement.

So my current assessment is that yes horns are a good way to achieve excellent dynamics but are not the only game worth playing for most in that regard.

Mapman, obviously any duplex or coaxial horn speaker is the exception to what you say as are single driver horn speakers.

The Feastrex 5" field coil driver has great promise, but even there I don't expect that they can ever get great bass out of it.

Mapman, I completely agree with your assessments, although, I still do not think those "non dynamic" live performances are easily duplicated by a system. But it can be close. Whenever I listen, tweak and/or evaluate a system, I bring along two Sheffield Labs recordings. The Drum and Track record, and Prime Cuts. I have used these for years. They show me immediately all strengths and weaknesses in a system. I use these as a reference because of my familiarity with them and, my liking of them. Once I approach my preferred listening levels, it is quite amazing what findings become apparent.

Since the discussion revolves around dynamics.

I'll just mention that the Sheffield Labs Drum Track XRCD is a good way to compare speakers for dynamics. Horns or no horns it takes considerable engineering/technology to play these drum tracks cleanly (no audible distortion) with brief but sustained levels over 110 db SPL at the listener, as measured with a Radio Shack meter on C weighted.

Shadorne Absolutely !

A musician friend of mine came over to my place the other week, he had previous not heard my horns, I played some cd's, and his comment was how 'clear' they sounded and he cheekily asked If he could he plug axe into them!
Does 'clear' mean, open, forward, colored, bright?
or all of the above?I care not as they float my boat, or should that be ship? lol.

"I still do not think those "non dynamic" live performances are easily duplicated by a system. But it can be close."

Yes, I agree of course that nothing can be duplicated exactly, especially when translated from a large venue into one's listening room.

But My point is that I do not expect exact replication, only quality reproduction within my own space, and I have no issues being satisfied fully with the dynamics aspect of the reproduction in my case, sans horns.

Nevertheless, I would very much like to try a pair of good horns in my home at some point in that I am always interested to hear what other kinds of good reproduction may sound like. Each usually has its own set of things to like.

Just like two talented artists, like Monet and Rembrandt, would offer two radically different but each uniquely interesting renditions of the same subject matter if given the opportunity I would expect.

Mapman, I have owned many speakers in my lifetime, and have experienced many more, and agree than many can do many things well. The point that I make is that people should listen to and experience as much as possible, and then decide what is best for them. My two best "audiophile" friends own top B&W and Martin Logan based systems, and they sound very good. The sound staging and imaging are great. The B&W system is the "ballsier" of the two and the Martin Logan system is very "delicate". However, I enjoy mine more. In fact, to me, there is no comparison. When they visit, they want the sweet spot for the duration. They both listen at lower levels than I do, but always leave saying "wow". They continue to own what they own, and I am very happy for them. I have never tried or wanted to change their minds, although they come to me for advice on many purchases and the like. I am very happy that many people can enjoy their systems, whether they be horns or not. Ultimately I have found the system that fits me best, and I will defend this point(fits me best)to those such as Unsound and Weseixas, who cannot accept this basic principal, nor be civil about it. It is my pleasure to have this correspondence.....again, I am in complete agreement with you.