IMHO, anyone who says that the Sound Labs can sound 'flat' have:
1) Never heard them
2) Never heard them set up correctly
3) Simply don't have ears which I would trust for opinions.
The one's I owned, except when compared to the best MBL's set up with mega watts, sounded remarkable...and I rue the day I sold them...ahhhh, divorce.
Good listening.
Larry |
What amplification for Sound Labs?
I used the somewhat dry, but very, very quiet and seemingly distortionless Halcro. Then, the DK (later LSA) Integrated amp, which has 150 Watts and doubles into lower impedences.
One of the reasons I bought the DK company back in 2005, was based on its comparative performance with the Halcro...frankly, I was stunned.
The sound in my room (large by my humble standards) 23x26x18 feet, open into a second story loft, and behind me, a vaulted kitchen (two casement doors 6' each)--so lot's of cubic feet, and they filled it up, for MY taste, in terms of volume and musicality.
Just a comment--likeing or even loving one product is not an attack on another. I like some horn speakers, but they, to my ears, have a coloration that I do not prefer.
Dynamic, yes, muscical, somewhat, integrated with bass, somewhat. Generalizations all--yet if Duke is involved (Audiokinesis) they're going to be really, really good.
I respect his opinion and work.
Good listening (don't forget to buy Renee Olstead)
Larry |
Macrojack,
Come back in a year or so...if you've stopped, 'Forever' (chasing the Holy Grail), we'll believe you.
A 'Pause' is not like quitting...my Dad, (God Rest His Soul) used to say, 'I can stop smoking Larry, I've done it a dozen times.' Somehow, I think that applies here.
The jury's still out just yet.
Good listening,
Larry |
People almost always ignore comments such as Atmasphere's:
"Just to dispel a couple of common myths, Sound Labs are capable of impressive dynamics..."
This was my experience. I was actually, very, very pleasantly surprised at how dynamic they were. Just listening, if one didn't know the technology, I'm not sure that one would know they weren't dynamic/cone speakers.
Surprising.
I'm almost certain that my complaints about 'horn coloration' are also, likely, 'dated' and no longer applicable.
Two complaints have always been...'horn coloration', which I 'claim' to be able to hear that, (to me) characteristic 'horn sound'. That and the 'lack of dynamic' consistency between the horn and the bass 'drivers'.
There's this discontinuity that I've always heard between those different drivers.
So I'll ask--(Duke if he's out there), does this still exist? (Of course, given the great dynamics of the horn drivers, it 'has to exist'to some degree, otherwise the horn isn't doing what horns do). So the remaining question has to be, is it still a negative that's obvious? OR, has it been ameliorated to the point, in terms of 'blend' that it's no longer a fundamental issue? Was it ever? Anyone else hear that??
Just wondering.
Good listening,
Larry |
Tbg,
"I don't question that they have 'impressive' dynamics but not the speed of horns..."
Surprising...my Sound Labs were about as fast as I've heard...you're saying that horns are faster?
Just clarifying.
I may need to look at horns very seriously. I wish Duke didn't live in Katmandu...
Good listening,
Larry |
I don't think I've done this before, but...
I was commenting on another post and this seemed appropriate to this particular post. So I cut and pasted the last few sentences of that, as it relates to dynamics, horns etc. (I realized I write way too much sometimes, OK all the time).
Here it is...
This past Sunday, I was invited to a concert that a friend was conducting, a 40 piece 'BAND'...no strings.
During it, of course, I closed my eyes, pretending it was home stereo, (how 'bout that for full circle irony).
What was missing was pretty amazing.
Very little of the instrument specificity, (that may be something we simply 'apply' in orchestral works)in terms of location.
The MAIN thing missing (at home) is dynamic contrast. The zero to 115+db (and more) was startling. That, and the scaling of the various instruments and how different they are in that dynamic contrasting...piccalos are really, really dynamic, at least, they 'cut through', (no doubt a function of their place on the pitch scale and the human hearing 'curve') all the other instruments. Nature's way of allowing the piccalo to say, 'Here I am', even if I am a fraction the size of a Tuba!
All in all, it was a reminder of what Ngjockey said, AND how important it is to hear, (for me at least) accoustic music played. Moreover, it may, may have been a really good commercial for Horn Speakers--at least the dynamics made it a reminder.
Good listening, |
Reading the responses of 'horn lovers' as well as the technical side from Duke, makes me realize, or at least form an opinion of the tastes of some of those Horn Lovers.
They share the common love of live music and unlike others, aren't really willing to forgive the lack of dynamic transfer that exists in virtually all, (even horns, but to a lesser degree) loudspeakers.
We all compromise, humm, pat our feet and try and pretend that it sounds live at home--sometimes deluding ourselves into that 'Wow, I'm really there moment.'
When I was railing about the horrible Wilson Audio frequency sweeps a while back, I kept shaking my head at the lack of indignation of others, at the poor showing on the test bench that Wilson's almost always exhibit. (That ought to really piss some folks off, sorry). But, all I was really doing was stating MY THRESHOLD of disbelief, which goes immediately to the tonal balance of loudspeakers.
I personally can forgive the lack of dynamics, frankly, really loud bothers my ears, I overload easily, to the point of leaving a really expensive Phoebe Snow concert, sitting in the lobby to listen.
BUT, then if the tonal balance is off, I cringe, and stupidly thought everyone else would be up in arms too.
Horn lovers on the other hand 'can't accept' lack of dynamics.
Blonde versus Brunette, versus redhead, (where are all the women hiding in Louisville, sorry.)
Preferences...why didn't I realize that 'til now?
Good listening
Larry |
Mrdecibel,
Yes--I was talking about the delusions we ALL SHARE in trying to believe that our systems sound like 'live' music.
My point was, I like a flat frequency response and can't accept THAT as a flaw, and that horn lovers love the dynamic transfer and can't accept dynamic squashing as an issue...
"We all compromise, humm, pat our feet and try and pretend that it sounds live at home--sometimes deluding ourselves into that 'Wow, I'm really there moment.' "
Yeah, I was really commenting on how all of us have different focus points.
Me, flat frequency response is a must, imaging and soundstage also a must...dynamic transfer, while important isn't a deal breaker--but I completely understand those who find it unforgivable.
Good listening,
Larry |
Atmasphere,
I told this story one other time, but some haven't read it...so please bear with me.
Jim Thiel, (yes, I'm summoning him again) one time showed me how he used to plot the frequency response of his prototypes, early on, before all the sophistocation of measurement stuff, (or maybe before THIEL had the resources to afford it, again maybe).
He'd play one tone (reference, at say 440Hz)at three levels, soft, medium and loud. Then he would play another frequency, at those same reference levels, say 80, 85, 89 db and ask which level the newest tone was being played at.
So, say I heard 440Hz at 85db, then I might hear 12Khz at 80 or maybe 89db, or obviously, even the same 85db. With the human hearing curve being what it is, we obviously perceive mid's at a greater volume, so the test is tough for almost everyone.
At first blush, this may sound easy, but it is really confusing to most people. I say, most, because of the 20 examples of this, I got them all right--he'd not had anyone do this before.
So, I suppose that this innate 'gift' (curse maybe) of mine, being able to hear these relationships easily, makes me more sensitive to tonal balance variance, hence the comments about tonal balance up a few posts ago.
Seriously, I've GOT to hear some horns, just to revisit...Duke, if you ever want to have a Beta Test Site...send me a pair...I'll write a Harry Pearson quality, prosaic piece and be honest to a fault.
Dynamics are fun--but missing in most loudspeakers, that's a fact.
Good listening,
Larry |
Tmsorosk,
Which 'panel' speakers have you owned?
Good listening,
Larry |
Duke,
I understand, shipping's a bear these days.
I would LOVE to hear your creations some time. Part of knowing how good they must be, stems from your afinity for Sound Labs. If you love/sell them, you must have a good handle on what is musically accurate.
Good listening,
Larry |
Isochronism,
You're right of course.
Being a dillitante is part of the audiophile sickness, one that I certainly have.
I really did have to design my own speakers, to have something that I didn't grow tired of.
The issue is now, I didn't make them 'no holds barred', cost NO object.
The closest were the one off LSA10's.
Those remain, one of the very best speakers I've heard...topped only in certain ways, by VERY expensive designs.
They weren't cheap, would have had to sell for $50K at least, and that was based on plate aluminum/cnc cutting for that plate aluminum at an aerospace company.
So, yeah, it's a blessing AND a curse to hear and quantify to an exacting level, but I love music so much, I try to just slide into the music and not critique.
Good listening,
Larry |
OK, time for a 'respect intervention'.
Johnk, we really don't call posters on Audiogon, names.
We don't hurl insults.
All of us have differing opinions, likes, dislikes--that's the nature of the human existence.
Keep it civil or find others to talk to in this manner.
On to the core issue.
Listening to ANYTHING at 120db is a recipe for serious hearing loss.
The issue is the hearing mechanism. After exposure to loud volumes for as little as 15 minutes, our ears, in an effort to adjust, start to 'shut down', this being different from hearing LOSS. But the result is, to 'perceive' the same volume, we must turn up the SPL to have that same sensation. This louder adjustment, is the issue that causes us to 'keep turning it up' to the point of hearing damage.
NASA contracted a study years ago, as the Astronauts couldn't hear Mission Control 'even though the volume was high'...in fact, THAT WAS the problem...the headsets were set so loud, the Astronauts' ears were 'shutting down' making communication virtually impossible.
An SPL meter, or an app for a MAC computer (IPOD/IPAD) works, will allow you to monitor the volumes you're listening at.
As I mentioned in another post, not all of us prefer horns, that doesn't disqualify them--and 'horn lovers', dynamic speakers are not 'seriously flawed'...this has to do with what we individually 'look for' in music reproduction.
90db is a relatively loud level, AND won't harm.
Moreover, let's stay CIVIL on this site.
Good listening,
Larry |
And so it came to pass...
That after an eon of disagreement, the horn lovers were verily converted to dynamic speakers, and alas, the dynamic lovers...you guessed it, fell in love with HORNS!
Play nice guys, there's nothing important enough about audio to make someone angry--it's a hobby.
Good listening, and PEACE
Larry |
Duke,
You are absolutely correct.
The internet creates a sense of, or rather actions of 'false bravatto'. Things that nobody would say in person, they'll write to another person confidently, from the safety of their own home.
Lots of bullies created by the internet.
Good listening,
Larry |
