Horns do not all need massive space to sound there best. If properly designed large horns will work fine in near field etc. But most are not designed well and need extra listening distance to compensate for poor integration excessive colorations and poor time alignments. Since many are DIY and not properly designed listening space becomes more of an issue. You also have the market demanding small loudspeakers so many commercial horns do not offer proper mid bass or bass systems. So much of the info on horns comes from DIY types who insist on massive listening distance since in there experience its needed. Or from owners of undersized commercial offerings. Who complain of mismatched bass midbass etc. No wonder horns get such a bad reputation in forum. |
radiation pattern control lack of distortion and efficiency
04-06-11: Johnk
Lack of distortion ? ... Interesting....
|
Weseixas, who plainly knows next to nothing about horn loudspeakers, continues relentlessly to underscore that most evident fact with generalities, wives' tales and misinformation. What drives this foolish behavior? What makes a grownup act this way?
While I haven't the ability to measure my horns for distortion, I'm quite happy to say that I can't hear any indication of distortion at all. The presentation is calm and effortless. In my 330 square foot room, they aren't tested at all.
The high efficiency claim goes without saying, as does the radiation control. A horn works like a rifle barrel in directing the sound. The flare of the horn (in my case, 40 degrees) confines the lateral distribution thereby preventing any early interference from room boundaries. But not all horns are that narrow. Likewise, not all horns are made of inch thick, non-resonant hardwood. And not all horns are smooth and conical. Generalities about horns make as much sense as generalities about anything else.
Weseixas is just here to make trouble. Ask him about his death panels. |
For a given size enclosure the basshorn will have lower distortion and better damping. Plus far less thermo compression in horn systems. A big positive for horn loaded designs. Controlled radiation pattern means better image with less room interference. I would say another benefit to large horns is they fill room with even SPL. With dynamic and other designs when you walk towards loudspeakers SPL greatly increases with horns room is filled with even SPL so you can stand next to a horn without the great increase in level, this to is a benefit of controlled radiation. |
Mapman, let me be the first you tell if you find the field coil Walsh.
Johnk, I have never heard either a DIY horn system, nor one that was well integrated even in what I would call a large room. Horns don't have a bad reputation with me as they alone have the snap that characterizes some instruments. But.... |
Macrojack, I have read nothing by Weseixas, but certainly horns can have vibration issues, as do all speaker, but of course the horns are a big radiation area. In my experience a tractrix horn sounds best. How I wish I could have horn performance that got close to the size of my Tidal Contrivas. I still remember when I was looking through a friend's MJ magazine from Japan, seeing a compression drive horn system. The first picture was the guy using a broom inside the mouth of his twin subwoofers. The mouth must have been at least eight feet by eight feet. A later picture showed the area behind his house with a structure that got increasingly narrow as it went probably fifty feet up the hill behind his house. It contained the horns with the compression driver at the back end. How I would have love to hear that system. |
Mapman, I've been involved with some field-coil driver design exercises in the last few years. It is true that you get greater efficiency with field coils, but if so it will only be by 1 or 2 db. The main thing that governs efficiency is precision gaps with focused magnetic fields.
What field coil offers is a magnetic field that won't sag, something that no permanent magnet can claim. Its like the electro-static principle in that regard. IOW I would not look to this approach so much for greater efficiency as I would as a way to make the driver faster and more transparent. |
Atmasphere,
That's good information. Thanks! |
Since I got my horns I have purchased a couple of cars and another rental property. So that's the kind of thing you buy after you own horns because you are done worrying about audio at that point.
I'm currently wondering if I really need a smart phone. |
My Lascala's have been with me longer than any other speakers and / or gear for my main listening room. Other things have come and gone, but they have proven the test of time, and, enjoyment. |
Macrojack,
Come back in a year or so...if you've stopped, 'Forever' (chasing the Holy Grail), we'll believe you.
A 'Pause' is not like quitting...my Dad, (God Rest His Soul) used to say, 'I can stop smoking Larry, I've done it a dozen times.' Somehow, I think that applies here.
The jury's still out just yet.
Good listening,
Larry |
Macrojack, what horns do you have? Be happy, in 40 plus years in audio, I have had eight different horn systems, but not now. I still love their speed and efficiency. |
People almost always ignore comments such as Atmasphere's:
"Just to dispel a couple of common myths, Sound Labs are capable of impressive dynamics..."
This was my experience. I was actually, very, very pleasantly surprised at how dynamic they were. Just listening, if one didn't know the technology, I'm not sure that one would know they weren't dynamic/cone speakers.
Surprising.
I'm almost certain that my complaints about 'horn coloration' are also, likely, 'dated' and no longer applicable.
Two complaints have always been...'horn coloration', which I 'claim' to be able to hear that, (to me) characteristic 'horn sound'. That and the 'lack of dynamic' consistency between the horn and the bass 'drivers'.
There's this discontinuity that I've always heard between those different drivers.
So I'll ask--(Duke if he's out there), does this still exist? (Of course, given the great dynamics of the horn drivers, it 'has to exist'to some degree, otherwise the horn isn't doing what horns do). So the remaining question has to be, is it still a negative that's obvious? OR, has it been ameliorated to the point, in terms of 'blend' that it's no longer a fundamental issue? Was it ever? Anyone else hear that??
Just wondering.
Good listening,
Larry |
Lrsky, having owned the big Sound Labs and many other electrostats, I don't question that they have 'impressive' dynamics but not the speed of horns, especially compression driver horns.
I should also say that all horn systems lack horn bass systems. Yes, such bass horns are very big.
I don't think we have yet 'blended' different drivers. I well remember Nelson Pass's full-range plasma speaker that landed him in the hospital and made me sick after about 15 minutes. It also had no dynamics. I was, of course, being fanciful in asking for a full-range point source driver with great efficiency. I don't expect this will happen in my lifetime. |
"There's this discontinuity that I've always heard between those different drivers."
I've always found matching two radically distinct kinds of drivers (in terms of efficiency and dynamics) in the same system to be inherently problematic, but have not noticed a problem in my admittedly limited exposure to what I would consider to be some of the better horn designs I have heard. |
Tbg,
"I don't question that they have 'impressive' dynamics but not the speed of horns..."
Surprising...my Sound Labs were about as fast as I've heard...you're saying that horns are faster?
Just clarifying.
I may need to look at horns very seriously. I wish Duke didn't live in Katmandu...
Good listening,
Larry |
I don't think I've done this before, but...
I was commenting on another post and this seemed appropriate to this particular post. So I cut and pasted the last few sentences of that, as it relates to dynamics, horns etc. (I realized I write way too much sometimes, OK all the time).
Here it is...
This past Sunday, I was invited to a concert that a friend was conducting, a 40 piece 'BAND'...no strings.
During it, of course, I closed my eyes, pretending it was home stereo, (how 'bout that for full circle irony).
What was missing was pretty amazing.
Very little of the instrument specificity, (that may be something we simply 'apply' in orchestral works)in terms of location.
The MAIN thing missing (at home) is dynamic contrast. The zero to 115+db (and more) was startling. That, and the scaling of the various instruments and how different they are in that dynamic contrasting...piccalos are really, really dynamic, at least, they 'cut through', (no doubt a function of their place on the pitch scale and the human hearing 'curve') all the other instruments. Nature's way of allowing the piccalo to say, 'Here I am', even if I am a fraction the size of a Tuba!
All in all, it was a reminder of what Ngjockey said, AND how important it is to hear, (for me at least) accoustic music played. Moreover, it may, may have been a really good commercial for Horn Speakers--at least the dynamics made it a reminder.
Good listening, |
"Two complaints have always been...'horn coloration', which I 'claim' to be able to hear that, (to me) characteristic 'horn sound'. That and the 'lack of dynamic' consistency between the horn and the bass 'drivers'.
"There's this discontinuity that I've always heard between those different drivers.
"So I'll ask--(Duke if he's out there), does this still exist?"
Hi Larry, well I think the colorations and discontinuities can be brought below the detection threshold for most people. On the coloration front, it starts with the design of the horn itself. My preference is for constant-directivity types that introduce as little diffraction as possible; this type of horn is often called a "waveguide". Its use calls for a fairly complex crossover so it doesn't appeal to many purists, but if the designer does his job well, neither you nor your amplifier would ever guess that the crossover is complex.
Addressing the dicontinuity issue requres a slightly different paradigm than what most people are used to. Instead of pairing up the best horn and best compression driver with the best woofer, we need to pair up the woofer, horn, and compression driver that work the best together. It's like Jim Thorpe, Muhammad Ali, Joe Montana, Tiger Woods, and Bjorn Borg are perhaps the best we've seen in their respective sports, but put 'em on a basketball court and the worst team in the NBA would eat them for lunch. The key is teamwork.
So getting back to horn speakers, we want to match up the dynamic capabilities of woofer and horn as closely as possible. That may mean using a prosound-type woofer whose thermal compression characteristics can keep with the compression driver. That may also mean not using the most uber-magnet hyper-efficient compression driver on the market.
The big thing I keep coming back to is the radiation pattern, and that's because it goes back to the most basic thing that our ears home in on: The frequency response. Most of the in-room sound we hear is reflected sound, so we can't afford to pretend like it doesn't matter if high fidelity is the goal. In particular, a radiation pattern discontinuity in the crossover region will let you know that there's a transition between drivers. The on-axis response can be smooth; the phase response can be smooth; and yet we hear the transition... in that case, look to the off-axis response! It matters because it's a far larger part of what we hear than is generally appreciated. Horns give us the opportunity to match up the pattern in the crossover region so that the off-axis response doesn't have a glitch there, and imho that should be taken advantage of.
I've had fellow speaker designers step into my room at an audio show and remark that they couldn't hear the crossover. That's either a high compliment about woofer-to-horn integration in the crossover region, or an admission that their ears are shot! I also have a customer who had one of my woofer + horn systems in a nearfield setup, so close that you could literally lean forward and touch the speakers. I expected to hear a vertical discontinuity when I sat down to listen, but with eyes closed I honestly couldn't. The apparent sound source was the center of the horn, and the crossover frequency was about 1.6 kHz. Now there may well be some instruments that would have appeared to come from lower, but in the course of listening to several songs I didn't hear it. This was unexpected, but indicates that, in some caes anyway, you don't need to be far back from a horn system in order for the drivers to integrate well.
Not that mine are the only systems that do this by any means, but mine are the ones I can speak from experience about. So take all of the foregoing with as many grains of salt as needed. This is all imho and ime and ymmv and etc.
Duke |
Duke - Does a lower crossover point better conceal integration problems between a horn and a dynamic woofer? It seems that way to me. My own system crosses at about 350 Hz. |
lrsky,
I always heard the discontinuity in my omega duos between the horns and the built in subs. one problem is the dynamic discontinuity and the other one is the time alignment (the horns are 2-3 ms ahead of the subs) solved that problem by employing very efficient corner subs and by applying delay on the horns.
I agree people need to listen to unamplified acoustic music to hear what dynamics are!! even a good horns system can't completely reproduce the dynamic range of an orchestra but it gets so much closer than anything else.
the difference between reproduced music at home and live unamplified music is mainly dynamic range!
macrojack,
using one of the cheapest nokia phones. don't need a smart phone. got a computer with internet connectiuon at home |
Macrojack, this is a cat that can be skinned more than one way.
At first glance, it looks like a crossover of 350 Hz between a fairly narrow-pattern horn and a direct-radiator woofer would not have a good radiation pattern matchup, and I think is probably the case (though the horn may be unloading somewhat down that low, resulting in some pattern widening). But it may not matter if the crossover is done right.
You see, below 500 Hz in most rooms, the ear is not very good at hearing radiation pattern discrepancies as long as the power response is good (this is my understanding of Earl Geddes on the subject). Bill Woods knows far more tricks of the trade than I do (he has many fine prosound designs to his credit, some of which show up in home audio systems because they're so darn good). So I'm sure he has this transition worked out very well.
Turning now to the realm of dynamic matching, Bill uses woofers that have excellent dynamic capabilities and so their thermal compression will be negligible at any SPL remotely likely in a home audio setting, thus matching the compression driver in that regard.
Duke |
Lrsky, I am primarily centering on horns with compression drivers, such as GoTo and old Altec systems. But I am talking about what I heard when I first heard horns. The were Klipsch corner horns sitting in the storage room in a dealer's shop. I sat on a stool as he prepared to demonstrate them with a Stereo 70 amp. He put on a snare drum recording. The volume was pretty high, but the first impact about blew me off the stool. I have always recalled that experience, especially listening to recordings with drums. My grandson is a drummer. I asked him if he had ever heard an accurate recording of a drum. He simply said, no.
I don't have compression horns now, so I could not tell him to listen to drums on them. I don't think they would equal to real, but a hell of a lot closer to real than any other speakers. I think pianos are another example. Yes, I am a leading edge freak. |
Duke why the midbass horn is so important to a proper horn loaded design. And probably the hardest of all to get right. |
This is an interesting thread with a lot of good information. For me, whatever the shortcomings of horn systems may be, and they surely have shortcomings as all speaker systems do, the (relatively) greater dynamic freedom gives the music a sense of reality that is missing when you listen to many otherwise good non-horn loaded speakers. I am just glad to see that the stigma is being lifted from horn based designs in the last 10 years or so, and that the technology is advancing. |
Duke - I started out with the JBL woofers that were native to my L-200 which are the LE15B. Bill suggested that I would get better efficiency and a lower XO point by switching to the RCF L15P530 drivers. These, by the way, were a nightmare to locate as they had already been discontinued by the time Bill recommended them to me. It turned out that they had been bought mostly for car stereo subs even though that is not what they were originally designed for. The replacement apparently was not as good according to Bill.
If I ever get to the point of selling my horns, I have a vintage pair of 12 inch drivers that I will use as single drivers in a simple cabinet - so I guess that's my answer to the original question. |
Its use calls for a fairly complex crossover so it doesn't appeal to many purists, but if the designer does his job well, neither you nor your amplifier would ever guess that the crossover is complex.
Audiokinesis (Threads | Answers | This Thread) You did your job well. At least from what I can hear. Of course I sit much further away now than last time you dropped by, but I've thought more than once about going back to that extreme near field set-up. There was something about it that just clicked. |
Reading the responses of 'horn lovers' as well as the technical side from Duke, makes me realize, or at least form an opinion of the tastes of some of those Horn Lovers.
They share the common love of live music and unlike others, aren't really willing to forgive the lack of dynamic transfer that exists in virtually all, (even horns, but to a lesser degree) loudspeakers.
We all compromise, humm, pat our feet and try and pretend that it sounds live at home--sometimes deluding ourselves into that 'Wow, I'm really there moment.'
When I was railing about the horrible Wilson Audio frequency sweeps a while back, I kept shaking my head at the lack of indignation of others, at the poor showing on the test bench that Wilson's almost always exhibit. (That ought to really piss some folks off, sorry). But, all I was really doing was stating MY THRESHOLD of disbelief, which goes immediately to the tonal balance of loudspeakers.
I personally can forgive the lack of dynamics, frankly, really loud bothers my ears, I overload easily, to the point of leaving a really expensive Phoebe Snow concert, sitting in the lobby to listen.
BUT, then if the tonal balance is off, I cringe, and stupidly thought everyone else would be up in arms too.
Horn lovers on the other hand 'can't accept' lack of dynamics.
Blonde versus Brunette, versus redhead, (where are all the women hiding in Louisville, sorry.)
Preferences...why didn't I realize that 'til now?
Good listening
Larry |
Larry, very well said, although I have said it before and others before me. Find what your priorities and preferences are, and go from there. Thanks, Mrd |
Lrsky,
I am one of those who prefers horns because of the more realistic dynamics, but I rarely listen to music at loud volumes. The higher dynamic threshold of horn speakers makes them sound more life-like at modest volumes as well. |
I have no horns and I do not think I am deluded?
My good recordings sound lifelike enough to me these days that I am satisfied and I listen to a lot of live music.
Hasn't always been that way though....
Of course I suppose if one is deluded, one would be clueless as to your actual state so who knows? |
Larry, if I am correct, the deluding ourselves remark was made as a generalization about all of us, not just the horn lovers, correct ? That is how I read it. Again, thank you for your words. MrD |
I suppose we are all deluded if we think our stereo sounds like anything other than what it is, a recreation of other people's musical creations in our homes in a manner that meets our needs and wants.
That's about all one can expect. If one expects anything more than that, then they are delusional, but nobody can prove them wrong either, so I suppose it really doesn't matter what fantasies one pursues as long as they enjoy it and do not hurt anyone in the process.
|
Duke's speaker is not an Horn .... Waveguide !!!!!!!
regards, |
The man of maps's summation speaks perfect sense to me. Very well put! |
Mapman, so why are there Audiogon discussions or threads? I think you have to appreciate that most audiophiles have no local dealer, that those having a dealer cannot expect to hear the broad variety of equipment on the market, and that you can often get good deals on the internet. |
This is all so interesting. I know many people who love music as much as myself, but many of them own a Bose wave radio or something similar to that. And when music plays, they can get up and dance and enjoy it for what it is. We (Audiogon members)on the other hand spend some major dollars on equipment and room set up, to hear these same recordings. If it is not to bring us a more "lifelike" presentation, why do we do it ? The only delusion is when you think it is as good as live music, which it could never be(I started another threat about this recently, but it died very quickly with only a handful of respondents). There are more Audiogon members who strive for great imaging and soundstaging, and if one feels that an artist has just appeared several feet in front to them, slightly left, that does not make them delusional. The Audiogon community is trying to extract any realism from our recordings. So I ask you all, why not simply own a Bose wave radio or something of that nature ? |
I suppose we are all deluded if we think our stereo sounds like anything other than what it is, a recreation of other people's musical creations in our homes in a manner that meets our needs and wants. Mapman says the secret word(s) and wins $50.00!!! Sorry Groucho, wherever you are. If it is not to bring us a more "lifelike" presentation, why do we do it ? The only delusion is when you think it is as good as live music, which it could never be Mrdecibel- your use of quotes around "lifelike" speaks volumes. S'phile ran a column/editorial on this subject a year or 2 ago, ruminating on why it is that even from a distance, anyone w a passion for music can tell the difference between music actually being performed and music being reproduced. I have no idea why, but I know through experience that it is true. My wife and I drove up to a friend's backyard dinner party a few years ago and heard electric jazz guitar as soon as we got out of the car, on the street out front. I immediately said to my wife "cool, they have a live musician". My wife could not understand how I could tell, and I couldn't articulate it to her or to you, but I was 100% positive that it was not reproduced music. Obviously no imaging, or soundstaging, but there was not a question in my mind that it was not a recording, even though he was playing a hollow body electric guitar through a small amplifier at modest volume. What we hear at home is, at best, a "lifelike" simulation of a performance. The Audiogon community (for the most part) does not listen to wave radios (except for a few sinners...you know who you are!) because the equipment we use, as you said "bring(s) us a more "lifelike" presentation" IMO, this doesn't denigrate the hobby or our passion; it just puts it into perspective. |
Very true swampwalker .....
regards, |
Swampwalker, I have had the same experience with a piano, but I have had another live music experience. At CES many years ago when it was in Chicago, I went out to dinner at Bergoffs with a wire manufacturer, an electronic manufacturer, a reviewer, and me. They had a live group going from table to table. When they were nearby, I suggested that the bass was boomy with lots of overhang. The others looked at me in amazement, but one said "yes it does." We then got around to saying why that might be, with the general agreement that the room and instrument were probably responsible. I would also note that few live performances are unamplified, the group in Bergoffs had no amplification.
Finally, I would say "as yet" we cannot give the illusion of live, but there is no question for me that we have greatly improved the illusion in most systems in the last twenty years. Horns may be the exception. We haven't surpassed the Klipsch horns or the WE horns. I heard a two tube WE 205 amp driving a single Altec concentric horn system long ago at a VSAT conference and heard what I had never heard before or since. Why did I not buy it? Because there was only one, and I didn't expect that I would ever find another. The dealer wrote later to say he had found a second but was going to keep both for his system. Why he wrote to tell me this, I haven't a clue, but it ruined my day. |
"Duke's speaker is not an Horn .... Waveguide !!!!!!!"
A waveguide is a type of horn, characterized by constant directivity, minimum-wavefront-disturbance curvatures, and a lack of vanes or diffractive shapes or features to modify directivity. Some of my models use what I would definitely call a "waveguide", and others use a device that has many (but not all) of the characteristics of a pure waveguide, so I call it a "waveguide-style horn". Macrojack's conical horns, designed by Bill Woods, are probably what I'd call "waveguide-style horns". Others may use different terminology and/or draw their lines of demarcation in a different place. For example, Bill Woods called my waveguide a "conical horn".
Duke |
Duke - As far as I can tell, "conical horn" is the nicest thing Bill can say about a system. He says the AH300 is the best he knows how to make. Apparently he sees your "waveguides" in a similar light. That should make your head swell a bit.
I tried to call Bill the master of horn design once but he laughed it off and said that would be Danley. Why no mention of Tom Danley in these horn threads? Don't you guys know about him? |
What an interesting thread this is, I have followed this one from the beginning. Some excellent points have been brought up, mapmans last post is spot on IMO. As for my speakers I own a pair of Gedlee Abbey 12A speakers that use a waveguide along with a 12 inch woofer, I also employ the multi sub (4) approach that Dr Geddes advocates. Best sound I have ever had in my room.
Dan |
Mrdecibel,
Yes--I was talking about the delusions we ALL SHARE in trying to believe that our systems sound like 'live' music.
My point was, I like a flat frequency response and can't accept THAT as a flaw, and that horn lovers love the dynamic transfer and can't accept dynamic squashing as an issue...
"We all compromise, humm, pat our feet and try and pretend that it sounds live at home--sometimes deluding ourselves into that 'Wow, I'm really there moment.' "
Yeah, I was really commenting on how all of us have different focus points.
Me, flat frequency response is a must, imaging and soundstage also a must...dynamic transfer, while important isn't a deal breaker--but I completely understand those who find it unforgivable.
Good listening,
Larry |
While I respect Bill hes talented and a wonderful human he didn't invent the conical horn heck Edison was using them in 1890 |
Excellent post by Lrsky. There are so many elements to music reproduction and each of us will choose to combine them and prioritize them differently. Which is why asking which anything is BEST is mostly pointless. |
Larry, the way you say your words are eloquent and precise. It is also wonderful to hear someone else speak of "individualism", "preferences" and "compromise", with out the bashing of others. Thank you again for being a GREAT Audiogon community member. Always, MrD. |
Pointless indeed, Drubin. It basically just comes down to asking which religion is best. World news reports are a good indicator of what sort of answers that discussion can yield.
Around here you can be crucified for disparaging tubes or liking horns or knocking Diana Krall.
In other places you might be stoned. (Not that kind of stoned)
So what's the answer? Stop talking about it altogether? That would make for a very ho hum fo rum. Wouldn't it? |
knocking Diana Krall? I wouldn't mind....OOP |
I have always limited my self to talking about my experiences and making few generalizations beyond that. I think in these days of no dealers, this is as best as I can do. It is also the best reviewers can do. |
Larry, I too like a nice flat frequency response. I'm not happy with it if I hear deviations or rolloffs at the extremes. So my system is a hybrid- horns on top and bass reflex woofers on the bottom.
One thing about perceived frequency response though, that ought to be considered:
The human ear perceives distortion as frequency response variation. This is why two amps can measure flat on the bench but tonally sound very different. |
