What does one purchase after owning horns?

How big of a flame would you need for your 30 hz. plasma signal?

Macro,

I composed a draft to Alan Hill, recently. Perhaps, I should send it :-)

Regards,
Sam

A hearing aid?

Not from normal or proper use so much, though the increased potential to do harm to ones ears is certainly there even then, but you have to wonder about the potential of high efficiency speakers to do harm to your hearing especially when something goes wrong.

It should be a real concern to consider I would think. No matter how good something may be, increased risk of causing permanent damage to ones hearing is not something to ignore.

How big of a flame would you need for your 30 hz. plasma signal?

Chadeffect,

I dream of a full range plasma speaker!

Ahh...a kindred spirit!! :-)

Vbr,
Sam

Something to keep in mind is conventional driver high end speakers are not compressing the dynamics very much or at all at normal levels, never forget the music was mixed on them to sound dynamically true as a rendition of the studio performance by the recording technicians, or engineers as they are casually called sometimes. You can verify that with headphones, too. Horns simply direct so much of the sound in one direction that is boosts the dynamics vs small planars which can oppositely compress dynamic contrasts. And that's not to say that horns aren't good, they are excellent. But they are not more signal accurate than normal speakers. I've personally found many horns to he hard on "MY" ears where a live performance isn't. But again it comes down to preference, as no one is wrong or right about their preference. Enjoy the music.

Try corns...vs horns they are da bomb.

More music, a comfy chair, good beverages.

I guess the Horning Hybred Algame I use don't qualify for this discussion. But I would like to make the effort to hear an AG horn system somewhere just to compare.

But please remember that Klipsch is a mass marketer. The parts within their products are not sourced for the ultimately best sound, ie. as a cost no object product. Volti Audio seeks to make each product the best possible, and they are not trying to scratch every penny out of the deal. Just take a look at the detail of the original Vittoras. Does Klipsch put any thought into how to improve a 2'x'2'x3' box. Most certainly not, but Volti Audio does and that is a major reason I bought their product. And then there is the wonderful sound. The same applies here, which makes me so very glad that I bought Volti.

The Yorkville (and Unity) is an old Danley design, the Synergy horn surpassed it every way. I know quite a few hifi enthusiasts using Danley for music and for movies as well at home, but I think none of them modified any of them. Could mean something. One of the most room friendly, room independent speaker I have ever used at home is the SM60F, because of its very tight and very smooth, uniform 60x60 dispersion, if one has a difficult room, worth to try it.

Yorkville Sound's Unity speakers are a Danley design. Look into the them. All the reports I've read about them are raves.
There's a fellow on AC named JDUBS who bought a pair and has gone to extremes modifying and enhancing them. My guess is that his speakers are magnificent. He sounds like he knows his stuff in spades.

Pro stuff isn't pretty but if you can overcome that concern, many of their speaker products will represent a bargain that our high end speaker guys don't begin to approach. Have a look.

Danley appears to have some unique design approaches. VEry interesting. Thanks for pointing those out.

After using Klipsch Horn, Klipsch LaScala, then Avantgarde Trio for more than 15 years, (the Trio for some 9 years) I probably experienced to say that Tom Danley's Synergy horns are combining all of the dynamics, room filling sound and liveliness of the mentioned horn speakers plus add cohenrency like no otherspeaker I have ever tried. SInce 2007 I tried all the room friendly Danley Synergy horns at home and for PA as well, including SH100, SH100B, SH Mini, SH50, SH60, SM60F plus subs like Th28, Th Mini, TH 112 (for PA TH115, TH 118 and TH 212).

If you want something affordable try SM60F with TH28 sub or even without a sub. Will be very surprising. The SM60F is easily driven, high sensitivity and light enough to put it on an ordinary telescopic speaker stand. The bass and patter control results space and imaging which kind of rare in its price category. Sounds very musical on very low volume, but can be pushed above 120 dB without any strain.

Macrojack, thanks for the response. Modified Klipsch do qualify as a player, and maybe with the exemption of other horn designs, are far superior (imo,ime) to everything else out there (again, for what I want). One of the areas that is very hard to beat is the full range bass horn. The speed, agility, power and naturalness are second to none, and, the "coherent" nature moving into the mid horn is something that I have found difficult to blend in multi horn systems (keeping in mind the OP). The designer of the Volti Vittoris speaks of this bass horn design on his web site, and I cannot do better than his wording of the magic he speaks of (which is a PWK design). So, I will keep what I have, thank you, and, I am quite happy. P.S. Florida is not for everybody. The winter of '95 was a deciding factor to leave NY to come down here, and we have just a few regrets ( family, friends and professional acquaintances). Again, it has been my pleasure........MrD.

MrD. - It is my plan to have the words "never set foot in Florida" included in any eulogy I may inspire. Thanks for the invite nonetheless.

Concerning PWK, just stay happy. Those who have delved deeply into horns and their behavior feel that Klipsch was something of a pioneer but has long since been eclipsed by the efforts of others.

I think you'll find that Tom Danley is the most esteemed horn designer today. My own guru, Bill Woods, has many admirers and Earl Geddes is developing a strong following on Audio Circle and with the DIY gang.

Classic Audio Reproductions and Audiokinesis have great reputations and Volti looks like he deserves similar recognition.

Horn loudspeakers are thriving and should be seen as a growth area within hi-end audio. As hobbyists mature and develop the realization that there is more to be had than "Recommended Components", the field broadens and the excavation becomes deeper and more thorough.

I remember laughing at the Asians back in the 1980s for wanting all our big, ugly old theater junk when there were Vandersteens and B&Ws to be had. What a bunch of suckers!!

Then, about 20 years later, I started to learn that they weren't so foolish after all. Single ended tube amps and horn speakers, even in their early stages were superior to the products that elicited Harry's Hosannas in TAS. Now I know full well that there is nothing superior to the best horn designs when driven by well crafted, small output single-ended amplification.

Perhaps modified Klipsch can qualify as a player today (I have no experience with them) but the PWK Heritage stuff in stock form does not compete with a good many of the designs that followed. In fact, I'm afraid that many of the time worn objections to horns may have been born of Cerwin Vega or Klipsch horns being driven by Adcom or Crown back in the day.

Macrojack, not how I read it, but fully accepted. Mods and parts upgrades for Klipsch have been available for many, many years now, and there are a great number of proud and happy owners, including myself of course. Other forums are out there with a greater number of "Klipsch" or "horn" fanatics. On these forums are a great number of individuals who offer these upgrades. I am a die hard PWK follower, and he still leads the pack in "design", with his "Heritage" models, imo. If ever in Central Florida, you are welcome to stop by and hear what a $2K investment, with lots of time, can produce. Maybe not as good as a Volti, but excellent non the less, and hard to beat at anywhere near the price. Thank you for you time. MrD

Mrdecibel - In the late 80s I was a salesman at a Klipsch dealership in Boulder, Colorado. My comment was made with full awareness of the models you mention. The Volti appears to be a far more refined and better realized revision of PWK's best efforts. If so, I think it warrants closer investigation.

I'll probably make it to Capital Audiofest again this year and will be looking to hear those!!

Macrojack, not taking anything away from the Volti, the Klipsch Khorn, Lascala and Belle are full range horns..........

Dale - Your speakers look very interesting. It's got to be true that a full blown, hand made, 3 way horn system for less than $8000 is a first.

I intend to give this option a lot of thought. Thanks for bringing it to my attention.

The Volti speakers use a cabinet design quite similar to the Klipsch Lascala, particularly the doghouse portion(the bass horn). I think they are great alternative to the Lascala II, at not much more money(although I have not heard a pair). But what I have read about them is very alluring .I find excellent coherence between all 3 drivers in the Lascala(after cabinet mods)(and Khorn), and because of the non corner placement requirements, as of the Khorn, they are more versatile. Granted, I have heard some excellent Khorn/room set ups which were wonderful sounding, but corner positioning led to other issues, which with some work, can be overcome. I am not touting them to be the best, but at the price points, with some tweaking, even for the new ones, they do more good than bad, and are still competitive with others today. I would like to listen to a pair of the Volti's in the near future.

Dalecrommie, thanks for the heads up. I had never heard of these. I still fondly remember Klipschorns, but I must say that I was only happy with the corner horns.

Volti Audio Vittoras....These All Horn Loudspeakers 'do integrate' as they are all horn loudspeakers. The cello is a cello with these. Exceeding smooth, not detailed for the sake of being detailed like so many loudspeakers. Ultimately satisfying.

Volti Audio Vittoras....These All Horn Loudspeakers 'do integrate' as they are all horn loudspeakers. The cello is a cello with these. Exceeding smooth, not detailed for the sake of being detailed like so many loudspeakers. Ultimately satisfying.

Renmeister, You have been away so long, and I am so sorry. I was obviously part of it all. I do believe help is still here if you want it, whatever direction you go, and not just by me.... You are welcome to email me if you prefer privacy. Always, MrDecibel

Mapman, I have owned many speakers in my lifetime, and have experienced many more, and agree than many can do many things well. The point that I make is that people should listen to and experience as much as possible, and then decide what is best for them. My two best "audiophile" friends own top B&W and Martin Logan based systems, and they sound very good. The sound staging and imaging are great. The B&W system is the "ballsier" of the two and the Martin Logan system is very "delicate". However, I enjoy mine more. In fact, to me, there is no comparison. When they visit, they want the sweet spot for the duration. They both listen at lower levels than I do, but always leave saying "wow". They continue to own what they own, and I am very happy for them. I have never tried or wanted to change their minds, although they come to me for advice on many purchases and the like. I am very happy that many people can enjoy their systems, whether they be horns or not. Ultimately I have found the system that fits me best, and I will defend this point(fits me best)to those such as Unsound and Weseixas, who cannot accept this basic principal, nor be civil about it. It is my pleasure to have this correspondence.....again, I am in complete agreement with you.

"I still do not think those "non dynamic" live performances are easily duplicated by a system. But it can be close."

Yes, I agree of course that nothing can be duplicated exactly, especially when translated from a large venue into one's listening room.

But My point is that I do not expect exact replication, only quality reproduction within my own space, and I have no issues being satisfied fully with the dynamics aspect of the reproduction in my case, sans horns.

Nevertheless, I would very much like to try a pair of good horns in my home at some point in that I am always interested to hear what other kinds of good reproduction may sound like. Each usually has its own set of things to like.

Just like two talented artists, like Monet and Rembrandt, would offer two radically different but each uniquely interesting renditions of the same subject matter if given the opportunity I would expect.

A musician friend of mine came over to my place the other week, he had previous not heard my horns, I played some cd's, and his comment was how 'clear' they sounded and he cheekily asked If he could he plug axe into them!
Does 'clear' mean, open, forward, colored, bright?
or all of the above?I care not as they float my boat, or should that be ship? lol.

Shadorne Absolutely !

Since the discussion revolves around dynamics.

I'll just mention that the Sheffield Labs Drum Track XRCD is a good way to compare speakers for dynamics. Horns or no horns it takes considerable engineering/technology to play these drum tracks cleanly (no audible distortion) with brief but sustained levels over 110 db SPL at the listener, as measured with a Radio Shack meter on C weighted.

Mapman, I completely agree with your assessments, although, I still do not think those "non dynamic" live performances are easily duplicated by a system. But it can be close. Whenever I listen, tweak and/or evaluate a system, I bring along two Sheffield Labs recordings. The Drum and Track record, and Prime Cuts. I have used these for years. They show me immediately all strengths and weaknesses in a system. I use these as a reference because of my familiarity with them and, my liking of them. Once I approach my preferred listening levels, it is quite amazing what findings become apparent.

Mapman, obviously any duplex or coaxial horn speaker is the exception to what you say as are single driver horn speakers.

The Feastrex 5" field coil driver has great promise, but even there I don't expect that they can ever get great bass out of it.

I was at a live performance this weekend at the local symphony hall and one of the things I was taking note of was dynamics.

My thoughts at the end was that not all live (or recorded) performances are equally "dynamic". The venue size, acoustics and where you are listening from are big factors.

At this particular event, the sound quality was very good but nothing that a good home system of most any ilk would have any problem matching, at least in most peoples rooms at home.

I have been to other performances where the dynamics were absolute top notch and also then came home to find my rig to be up to the task of delivering equal results in terms of dynamics within the confines of my various listening room.

I have no horns.

I have also heard some top notch horns that absolutely sparkled and were jaw dropping in regards to dynamics and ability to generate musical involvement.

So my current assessment is that yes horns are a good way to achieve excellent dynamics but are not the only game worth playing for most in that regard.

For giggles, I just read Unsound's 2nd post. Are you kidding ? Begging for a rebuttal ? The OP wants something else ? Other designs are capable of the same dynamics ? I will leave it at that !

I will not even try to respond to Unsound, but applaud his exit.

mbl is certainly one design that can raise the bar in many regards but differently as might good horns and other more esoteric designs.

I am of the opinion that there is only so much that can be achieved with conventional dynamic box designs, though good ones can certainly still be most enjoyable. More unconventional approaches must be taken to raise the bar further in particular aspects of sound. Horns are one approach that can in terms of dynamics. mbl is another. Walsh drivers like those in the reasonably affordable and compact OHM Walsh speakers I am partial to are another.

Not chased, just waiting for the zealots to inhale.
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/zealots
The issue of dynamic compression seems to be academic, after all we've had decades of practical use, and minuscule amount of reported failure. Even the author of the provided link suggests what ever deficiencies might exist, might not be audible.
Perhaps Mrdecibel should consider just who should get over whom.
Attempts to use gang bullying, and suggestions of psychological shortcomings of those who don't agree, are pathetic attempts to negate opposing points of view.
One could easily return the question of; where is the science to prove that horns don't get in their own way in such a manner to compromise coherence?
I'm quite done with all of this, but I leave of my own accord, not because I've been chased away, and I reserve the right to return, should I feel the want.
BTW, I still stand by my first post on this thread; the VMPS's might be worth a consideration.

One of the best musical experiences of a non horn system was a pair of MBL 101s in a room that was, admittedly, too small for them(I spent many hours, on different days, listening, as they were owned by a close friend). The sound was incredible and very involving. I could easily live with these. Yes, I said it. Connected to them was a top end tube preamp and a powerful, top end ss amp. Because I value so many traits that horns possess, it is hard for me to ultimately feel satisfied with many a speaker. I can appreciate time coherence and spatial imaging of many of these high end systems, but if the sound cannot convey that "musician magic", if you will, it does not keep my interest. But, again I say it, to each his own, and let's all live happily ever after. P.S. : "Musician magic" is my wording, of the ability to follow, and feel, each musician in a recording.

Maybe horns aren't necessarily fatiguing but the horn zealot's appear to have mostly chased the non-believer's away from this thread about what to do after horns nontheless?

I'll speak treason and assert that there are many good cost and sound quality competitive options after good horns that also include excellent dynamics, including but not limited to other horns, if horns are what toot your YNW.

One boy's personal opinion.....I know many many musicians who own horn speakers, from simple Klipsch Heresys to, you name it. I can tell you that these individuals are not wrong in their musical assessments. What they all have in common is the day to day exposure to live music. So, if horns sound closest to live music ( dynamics,scale,speed,prat,etc. ), to these individuals ( even with all of their "opinionated" problems mentioned by you know who ), who is he to say otherwise. Again, his words are trivial and mean nothing, but yet he continues to speak. I say to these two : keep bringing it on.

Weseixas, I think T-Bone has a good point- where is the science that says that horns are 'discombobulated'? Do you have a link that is peer-reviewed?

T-Bone the irony,

Anyway thanks for quoting me, gives your response some content .

Regards,

P.S. T bone I had a great time during the '96 Stereophile show, showing off, for 3 wonderful days, the Eurythmie speakers, along with other Jadis gear. I think they are great !

Some own "many speakers", listing among them six differing types... Others instead, own just "one" pair that they are happy with!! My JBL 4550's will be in my living room when I move. :)

T bone You and I (and everyone else other than Unsound)see eye to eye (ear to ear)about Weseixas. They have their description of us(zealots)and we have ours of them(trolls). He speaks nonsense. He has actually made statements about engineers who make the recordings, indicating they are deaf and lack taste. So he is knocking everyone. Wow. I am looking forward to more garbage from these guys. Duke, if you can learn to ignore these 2, we would still love to hear from you and what you have to say. Remember, on this particular thread, Weseixas and Unsound are by themselves, they are the out casts, even though they do not see it. It shows psychological problems these to have about being grown ups, and men, for that matter(as I am referred to as boy). This is a joke. My psychiatrist friend has read some of this thread(he is not interested in audio), and rather than laugh about these 2, he has found rather disturbing behavior patterns. So I am loving this all. Sorry to see Duke bow out. There is power in numbers. Again, it has been my pleasure to part of this.

T_bone, while I agree with you, I find this entire pro/anti horn thing too reminiscent of subject v. objective discussions-probably best left to late in the night bar discussions. I have never understood why those not wanting to have horns feel they need to tell others that. I certainly don't care why they feel that way.

As I have said, I very much miss their quickness and think no other driver even gets close. But I also think compression drivers on horns are a must for this. Nevertheless, after owning seven different horn systems, I haven't had them in several years. Some horn systems have so much space between the horns, such as the Avantgarde Trios, that you hear one instrument in different locations depending on which note is being played. Also to get really deep bass you need monster horns.

I have basically chosen a three was ceramic driver, 187 pound each system with an excellent tweeter and good bass down to probably 40 Hz. Does a snare drum sound real? Of course, not. Am I happy? Yes.

I would just suggest that you ignore Weseixas.

Weseixas said:

Thanks for making my case Decibel , your accusations have no recourse for they are lacking in substance.

This is after the previous two "value-added" comments regarding horns, speaker technology, and whatnot by Weseixas:

Uh, huh ......

and

There are not many things we can be sure of , except rain comes from the clouds , sun lights up the sky and horn zealots know how to cry .

None of this adds to any intelligent discourse.

*********

Your next statement in your last post is weird.

There are many speakers available which are very dynamic without getting into horns, again you guys are here promoting phoobie dust science and ignorance by volume, a regular MO with you guys and when you dont get your way then it becomes personal.

From any reasonable external observer's point of view, you have been "making it personal".

*********

Your following post:

Not everyone enjoys the discombobulated integration and coloration that multiple horns suffer from , if you like that , so be it , now try to understand that others dont and prefer to discuss just that.

makes an assumption (that multiple horns suffer from discombobulated integration and coloration) which is not supported by anything other than your personal opinion. Show the science please. I have yet to find someone who can show me that by their very nature, two horns are BY DEFINITION not able to integrate as well as the same two drivers without horns attached. If you can provide the science/math to prove it, please do.

*********

* Macrojack has admitted to not hearing above 10 K
* you have admitted to selling horns,as a sales boy
* Duke sells a 2 way waveguide he markets as a horn
* Dan_ed is all about horns and promoting horns.
* JohnK sells horns .

There is ALWAYS A VESTED INTEREST WITH you guys and every conversation is crowded with more and more phoobie dust science and of course the most vile rethoric[sic].

Your bullet points do not prove a case one way or another. Nothing in them suggests that the people are not right.
1) Whether macrojack can hear above 10k has nothing to do with horns or not horns.
2) so what. Someone in my family sold cookies as a girl scout and that does not make me biased towards them, even if I were to say that they were the best cookies under the sun. That is a personal opinion (which I don't happen to believe).
3a) Duke sells that speaker, but if you bothered to read his website, the word "horn" is mentioned only at the bottom, and it is to contrast his waveguide speaker with earlier horns, many of which had colorations.
3a) Duke also sells ESLs and has long been a proponent of them.
4) Dan_ed seems to enjoy his speakers as much as you enjoy yours. He is not so much a promoter of horns as a defender of them in the face of repeated attacks from the likes of you and Unsound, who have yet to come up with anything other than "they're colored" as a reason for attacking horns and those who listen to them.
5) Johnk makes horns. He makes speakers. He is a cabinetmaker. If you want better bases for your ESLs, he will likely build them for you. If you wanted custom-made dynamic speakers, he would probably build them for you too. As it turns out, he thinks horns sound good, and he has provided sound reasons why they might work better (against your "they're colored" reasons why they don't work). It could also be that he builds horns BECAUSE they sound better.

When I was in junior high school and high school, I made my money by mowing lawns. Unlike some others, I also did a lot of other landscaping and garden care which was based on good science (everything from run-off management, proper mulching and fertilization, to grass mixes, and small tree care). I had purchased an expensive lawnmower BECAUSE it was good, and better at mulching than other lawnmowers. I recommended to my customers that they allow me to use my lawnmower rather than theirs. I did not charge them for it. My recommendation, and "defense" (explanation for my recommendation if someone asked) did not mean that I had a vested interest in mulching mowers.

On the other hand, I would suggest that your history of bashing horns and horn speaker adherents would mean that you have a vested interest in continuing to bash them. What would happen if you actually found a pair of horns that you liked?

Personally, I like any speakers which sound nice. I happen to have horns. I do not think mine are less colored than the most accurate box speakers I have ever heard, but they were a lot less expensive, easier to drive, and they sound better than anything I have heard in the price range - which is, admittedly, not everything out there. However, I would bet substantial money that my horns will be able to be driven by a wider variety of good amplifiers than any ESLs you can find. If I had a lot of space and lived in the US, I might have SoundLabs, and I have always liked really big Magnepans. I had ESLs before and upgraded to my current horns because of weak bass and weak bass integration of the ESLs and their dynamic woofer.

"Blow the socks off" is a scientific term? I have yet to find a pair of ESLs which will work as well in a small-medium space as Altec 19s (which I am choosing as "horns" because they have a horn and Audiokinesis has praised them before - which should be a good enough definition for you). The Altecs are not the best thing out there in horns, but they sound really great (especially when modified like my friend's), and can be put in a smallish room. If I had tried to stick full-range ESLs (like big SoundLabs) in the same room, I would never be able to get over room issues. Full-range ESLs would, in practice, be about the worst thing possible in a small room where my friend runs his Altec 19s.

But I get the feeling by writing all this down I am probably just feeding the troll...

I can discuss technical issues but am not very good at emotional exchanges, so I will bow out.

Duke

Weseixas, You still do not understand the words of Renmeister in his original post, amazing. Except for you and Unsound, my words have plenty of substance, here on this thread anyway. My comments about Unsound's 3.5s are without question true statements, when talking about dynamic range and scale. How dare you accuse me of rubbing up to the late Jim Thiel. He was a fine gentleman and engineer, and if not for him, my cabinets might have taken longer to modify. I do like other products of his, although I still prefer horns. "Blow the socks off" statements once again shows your ignorance of the fact that people like what they like, but this is not good enough for you. So who has proven who's case ! I wish my system (and home) would allow for 120db, but I will stick with my 100db levels. And, not many of your "stated" speakers play cleanly at that level, so you can keep them. As a die hard Jazz lover, not many speakers can play back Miles or Coltrane any where close to my Lascalas. Remember, here, on this thread, you and Unsound are the outcasts. That's all, for now ........

Thanks for making my case Decibel , your accusations have no recourse for they are lacking in substance.

There are many speakers available which are very dynamic without getting into horns, again you guys are here promoting phoobie dust science and ignorance by volume, a regular MO with you guys and when you dont get your way then it becomes personal.

Not everyone enjoys the discombobulated integration and coloration that multiple horns suffer from , if you like that , so be it , now try to understand that others dont and prefer to discuss just that.

* Macrojack has admitted to not hearing above 10 K
* you have admitted to selling horns,as a sales boy
* Duke sells a 2 way waveguide he markets as a horn
* Dan_ed is all about horns and promoting horns.
* JohnK sells horns .

There is ALWAYS A VESTED INTEREST WITH you guys and every conversation is crowded with more and more phoobie dust science and of course the most vile rethoric.

Myself i have 2 audio system and many speakers, dynamic, open baffle dynamic, ribbons, ribbon hybrids, ESL, ESl hybrids no horns , they dont work for me and i haven't told anyone here to get rid of their horns as you have about anything else that is not a horn, nor is your back handed approach necessary, rubbing up to the late JIM THIEL then putting down unsounds decision to buy one, look in the mirror your sanded mangina approach is nothing but weak.

There are ESL's that will blow the socks off any horn speaker in a domestice environment, as so ribbon, ribbons hybrids and multiple driver dynamic speakers, they have done so for decades and guess what , will continue to do so regardless of how many times you use your bully pulpit, i would also implore anyone interested to get out and listen not everyone requires 120+db to enjoy their music, but if you do i'm sure there is something for you..

Regards,