Atmasphere,
I told this story one other time, but some haven't read it...so please bear with me.
Jim Thiel, (yes, I'm summoning him again) one time showed me how he used to plot the frequency response of his prototypes, early on, before all the sophistocation of measurement stuff, (or maybe before THIEL had the resources to afford it, again maybe).
He'd play one tone (reference, at say 440Hz)at three levels, soft, medium and loud. Then he would play another frequency, at those same reference levels, say 80, 85, 89 db and ask which level the newest tone was being played at.
So, say I heard 440Hz at 85db, then I might hear 12Khz at 80 or maybe 89db, or obviously, even the same 85db. With the human hearing curve being what it is, we obviously perceive mid's at a greater volume, so the test is tough for almost everyone.
At first blush, this may sound easy, but it is really confusing to most people. I say, most, because of the 20 examples of this, I got them all right--he'd not had anyone do this before.
So, I suppose that this innate 'gift' (curse maybe) of mine, being able to hear these relationships easily, makes me more sensitive to tonal balance variance, hence the comments about tonal balance up a few posts ago.
Seriously, I've GOT to hear some horns, just to revisit...Duke, if you ever want to have a Beta Test Site...send me a pair...I'll write a Harry Pearson quality, prosaic piece and be honest to a fault.
Dynamics are fun--but missing in most loudspeakers, that's a fact.
Good listening,
Larry |
Larry, If I get what you are saying, you have even more reason to check out horns. Regular dome tweeters don't handle very much power (2 watts is common). Most horn tweeters handle about the same power, but are *also* lot more efficient, effectively making them able to handle a lot more material than any dome tweeter ever could. |
Atmasphere,
Why do you say a dome tweeter cant handle more than 2 watts. I have done sweeps at 1,2,5,10.15,30 watts and never any deviation in it's curve, step or impulse response.
Drivers:
1. Dynaudio
2. Morel
All systems were tested as such before leaving the factory ..
Regards, |
"Seriously, I've GOT to hear some horns, just to revisit...Duke, if you ever want to have a Beta Test Site...send me a pair...I'll write a Harry Pearson quality, prosaic piece and be honest to a fault."
Thanks for your offer, Larry. Shipping costs make it impractical... I'd probably be looking at ballpark 700 bucks round trip.
Duke |
Tmsorosk,
Which 'panel' speakers have you owned?
Good listening,
Larry |
Duke,
I understand, shipping's a bear these days.
I would LOVE to hear your creations some time. Part of knowing how good they must be, stems from your afinity for Sound Labs. If you love/sell them, you must have a good handle on what is musically accurate.
Good listening,
Larry |
Weseixas, here is my comment: Regular dome tweeters don't handle very much power (2 watts is common). I am not saying that 'a dome tweeter cant[sic] handle more'. To misquote me here and then knock down the resulting argument is a logical fallacy called a Strawman. see http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/straw-man.htmlThe idea of a logical fallacy is that it appears logical but is in fact false. There are of course many tweeters than handle more than 2 watts, but 2 watts is indeed quite common. There are horn tweeters than can handle 25 watts; given that they are about 10db more efficient than many dome tweeters, said dome tweeter would have to handle 250 watts do produce the same output. Do you know of any that do that? I don't; but if they are out there they are pretty unusual. |
Larry, with your given audible strengths, you may never be truly happy. Tho, they will have you striving for the highest level. Possibly, your goal is unobtainable... neverless you will reach a damn high bar with that fortitude! :) |
In three weeks the Lone Star Audio Fest is happening in Dallas, Texas. Here's a link:
http://lonestaraudiofest.com/
What this has to do with horns is, historically a disproportionate number of rooms at LSAF exhibit horn designs. We also have direct radiators, electrostats, dynamic dipoles, and probably others that I can't think of right now. The show was founded by Wayne Parham of PiSpeakers, and past exhibitors include Classic Audio Reproductions, Bill Woods, and Earl Geddes.
Duke |
Duke, unfortunately that seems to be a dead link. |
Thanks for letting me know, Learsfool; I don't know how it got garbled so I don't know how to keep it from happening again.
Suggest you google "Lone Star Audio Fest", or type in "www.lonestaraudiofest.com".
Duke |
Atmasphere you said{250 watts to produce the same output}. Not true you forget the -6-7db of thermo compression that the dynamic would experience. So its not possible for a dome thats not horn loaded to equal output of a horn tweeter.It will melt the voice coil glue. Also most domes are .65% efficient many horns are 6-7% so with a dynamic dome you have 99% of power waisted as heat. Thermo compression is the 800 pound gorilla in the room that dynamic owners do not acknowledge. |
There is little reason to acknowledge it. That horns can produce sounds that can fill a stadium better than typical domes is irrelevant for most of us. Those volume levels aren't needed and for the sake of our hearing not desirable. Even without things like vented baskets, and ferrofluid cooling, dynamic tweeters are typically capable of providing more than enough volume for typical rooms. Typical dynamic tweeters have proven themselves to be remarkably reliable, and even more so, with extra power available to them. |
This tweeter discussion is largely atopical since half of us can't hear beyond 10 Khz. The mid range is where our discussion should be centered because that is where most of our material comes from.
In my experience, nothing else produces quite the same caliber of mid as my horns. Other designs seem like toys by comparison. |
Macrojack, one hears about high frequency hearing loss in males, but I have never seen any convincing documentation of this. I have had audiologists tell me that many have sagging frequency responses between 1000 Hz and 5000 Hz. I can just get a hint of 16k Hz.
Nevertheless, I think that tweeters are a central part of what makes a quality speaker. The diamond tweeter on the Tidal Contriva Discera SEs is one of its strong points. |
Isochronism,
You're right of course.
Being a dillitante is part of the audiophile sickness, one that I certainly have.
I really did have to design my own speakers, to have something that I didn't grow tired of.
The issue is now, I didn't make them 'no holds barred', cost NO object.
The closest were the one off LSA10's.
Those remain, one of the very best speakers I've heard...topped only in certain ways, by VERY expensive designs.
They weren't cheap, would have had to sell for $50K at least, and that was based on plate aluminum/cnc cutting for that plate aluminum at an aerospace company.
So, yeah, it's a blessing AND a curse to hear and quantify to an exacting level, but I love music so much, I try to just slide into the music and not critique.
Good listening,
Larry |
I have tweeters in my B&C DCX 50 coax drivers but I have never hooked them up to an amp. If anything is missing, I don't miss it. |
Unsound, with respect to Even without things like vented baskets, and ferrofluid cooling, dynamic tweeters are typically capable of providing more than enough volume for typical rooms. IMO the issue is one of how relaxed the sound is. Its been my experience that the system should lack the quality of 'being loud' and instead should seem to not sound very loud, even when (by most audiophile standards) it is. It is a fact that electronic reproducers tend to add artificial loudness cues to the sound, making it hard to sit in the room when peaks are hitting 100db. But an orchestra can hit 120 db peaks so it seems to me that if a system is able to do that without stress or strain (IOW it is **relaxed**) at such volumes, then we would be far more likely to play the system at higher volumes. One of the first things I noticed upon installing a horn system (Classic Audio Loudspeakers) was the simple fact that without any particular intention, we tended to play the system at much higher sound pressures than we had done with the previous dynamic speaker, **even though we had the power to play the dynamic speaker at higher volumes**. This simple fact of the matter was the horns didn't **sound** loud, even though they were in fact playing louder. This is why I make such a big deal about loudness cues. Making sure they are not distorted by the playback system IMO/IME separates the wheat from the chaff. |
Macrojack are you saying you can't hear above 10K .Nuff said..
regards, |
Agree Tbg when last checked topped out at 16K myself and Dome tweeters are not at a disadvantage when used in the typical home environment and listening distance.. |
Atmasphere, Even if my system could play cleanly at 120 dB(it can't), unless I got a much bigger listening space, I doubt that I would want to. There's a sense of scale that I seek within the confines of my listening room. I'll grant you horns can play louder than most any other loudspeakers, but they're a one trick pony, IMHO, sounding completely obnoxious in every other regard. |
Loudness cues are critical in music creation and re-creation. Compression on the other hand......It is time for someone to move up from his 3.5s, imo. |
Says the guy who doesn't list his own system. The zealots always make it personal. I'll bend this time, at 89 dB 1/W/m with a 4 Ohm nominal/minimum impedance, the 3.5's fed 500 Watts per channel into 4 Ohms, from a distance of just over 9', placed in a roughly 3378' (3) room, seem to satisfactorily provide loudness cues without too much concern for compression, thank you very much. |
And Unsound I'm sure a thiel 3.5 is so much better than a classic audio reproduction field coil horn system. My pair of 3.5 sure wasn't. And Who on earth listens to horns in there home at 120db? That comment just shows your unjustified bias against horns you have no experience with them just lots of bias and venom. You and Weseixas are just trolls with no experience with any of what you post on a true definition of troll. One who enters threads just to annoys others never offers anything of use doesn't have any knowledge about subject of thread. Thats both of you and you know it. |
JohnK, perhaps you should read the posts preceding mine to see where that 120 dB was referenced from. Furthermore, perhaps you should read the title of this thread before lashing out. While your at it, perhaps we can implore you yet again to come clean and admit the fact that you make and sell horns. Who has the most bias here? Once again, the zealots make it personal. |
Larry ... I did not say i have owned panels . I did have a demo set of Maggy 20.1's in my system for a week . I do have friends with M.L. CLX's and another with M.L. Quests , a member of are audio club has 2 sets of Quad's , that I have become well aquatinted with . There probably all great speakers but none have really pushed my buttons . |
OK, time for a 'respect intervention'.
Johnk, we really don't call posters on Audiogon, names.
We don't hurl insults.
All of us have differing opinions, likes, dislikes--that's the nature of the human existence.
Keep it civil or find others to talk to in this manner.
On to the core issue.
Listening to ANYTHING at 120db is a recipe for serious hearing loss.
The issue is the hearing mechanism. After exposure to loud volumes for as little as 15 minutes, our ears, in an effort to adjust, start to 'shut down', this being different from hearing LOSS. But the result is, to 'perceive' the same volume, we must turn up the SPL to have that same sensation. This louder adjustment, is the issue that causes us to 'keep turning it up' to the point of hearing damage.
NASA contracted a study years ago, as the Astronauts couldn't hear Mission Control 'even though the volume was high'...in fact, THAT WAS the problem...the headsets were set so loud, the Astronauts' ears were 'shutting down' making communication virtually impossible.
An SPL meter, or an app for a MAC computer (IPOD/IPAD) works, will allow you to monitor the volumes you're listening at.
As I mentioned in another post, not all of us prefer horns, that doesn't disqualify them--and 'horn lovers', dynamic speakers are not 'seriously flawed'...this has to do with what we individually 'look for' in music reproduction.
90db is a relatively loud level, AND won't harm.
Moreover, let's stay CIVIL on this site.
Good listening,
Larry |
"You and Weseixas are just trolls" BINGO! |
Another zealot, with another personal attack. Dan_ed, perhaps you'd like to review my total posting history here on Audiogon, before handing in that bingo card. |
We've had this conversation, Unsound. You troll every thread that has the "horn" word in it. |
My experiences with 3.5s is that even at 100 db they show signs of serious compression, as well as ill defined bass and peaky treble, and this was with Krell amplification, a better match than Threshold, ime. 100 db is a volume that I do listen at, and good horns do this well. I do not believe room size matters when discussing loudness cues. At a lower listening level, dynamics are still apparent in recordings and the speaker can either deliver them or not. The bashing that the two mentioned posters speak has not bothered me in quite a while. It is actually amusing, because I do not think either of these individuals have spent much time around live, unamplified music, leaving them with a dislike of anything close. I will continue on this thread, enjoying myself, and knowing the truth. So bash all you want. Your 3.5s do not sound anything like live music, just a good hifi speaker. However, I will never bash you because this is the sound you go for. To each his own. I take that back. I am still awaiting your shipping address for the shipment of the Qtips. Enjoy ! |
Unsound, just for the record, I have stated many many times that I own a pair of Klipsch Lascalas, so maybe you were not paying attention. |
I think Atmasphere makes an important point. For me, loudness can mean many things, not just the ability to produce sound that measures 120 dB!
From my perspective, in addition to absolute level, it includes rise time and the ability to produce a given level cleanly and without stress. I've never heard live acoustic music sound distorted or harsh. Yes it may become too loud to be comfortable but that is a function of sound pressure levels. Reproduced music on the other hand can become uncomfortable for me to listen to long before it becomes so loud I need to turn it down or leave the room.
So back to the OP question, I suppose it becomes an issue of finding speaker/amp combinations with sufficient headroom and low distortion. After that the specific choice is a matter of personal taste -- a point emphasized by many of the replies here. |
Before Y'all go calling Unsound and Weseixas trolls, consider the fact that their advocacy is what keeps certain parts of this community on their respective toes. I for one value their input, even though I often disagree. If they can present an argument that has merit, I feel that it should be considered. I used to have a very similar viewpoint about horns as Unsound as often expressed: horns can play louder than most any other loudspeakers, but they're a one trick pony, IMHO, sounding completely obnoxious in every other regard. Now that I no longer agree with this comment is only based on my experience have having to re-visit what horns are about. This is experiential, and we don't all have the same experience. IMO/IME, it is probably more important to sort out why that is the case- I think we can learn more if we look at it that way. BTW- I was the one that mentioned the 120 db. If an orchestra can do it, we should be able to in the home too. That we are not there yet ( 'turn that !@#$%^ down!' ) says a lot about the weaknesses in our technology. |
The OP has gotten out of horns and now the church attempts to drag him back in by flaming others.
Dan_ed, John-k, it appears the mods allow you guys to flame others without recourse. John-K why don't you try backing up your rhetoric with some real data, I mean you claim a lot, show something, instead you choose to flame others..
I'm not here promoting any topology, I have never told anyone to switch from horns, ESL, ribbons , Thiels or anything for that matter. It doesn't matter what you or the others think sound the "best", that's the choice we all have and make when we put together " our" system.
What i will not let pass is the Phoobie dust science you guys spew for reality, no! i will not allow such to go uncheck and i know enuff about horns to know they do not work for me, preferring speakers which are more time and phase coherent with low coloration...
Dig !!!
|
*Regular dome tweeters don't handle very much power (2 watts is common)
*There are of course many tweeters than handle more than 2 watts,
.
*But 2 watts is indeed quite common
..
- Atmasphere
Ahh err, OK so let me see if i get this right, so as not to misquote you again.
Regular dome tweeters don't handle very much more than 2 watts, but many tweeters do and 2 watts is quite common?
OK so one can conclude that regular and common only handle 2 watts, but "many" handle more, so if one wants a tweeter that handle's more than 2 watts one would get a "many " tweeter and stay away from the "Regular" and "common" models.
Seriously Ralph forget about OTL Tubes and negative feedback, you are on to something better than Redbull.
Regards, |
Mrdecibel, your presumptions are quite amazing. Once again, the zealots make it personal. |
Ohh,
Atmasphere, I think you meant to say more sensitive than a dome tweeter not efficient.
For eg,
ESL's are very efficient in the bass, so there will be some some synergy with your high output impedance OTL's..
Regards, |
Unsound, just for the record, I have stated many many times that I own a pair of "Klipsch Lascalas" so maybe you were not paying attention.
04-26-11: Mrdecibel
And you are knocking Thiel's ...... LOL.
|
In actuality Ralph, I do agree with you more than you let on and i do understand your stance on horn speakers. Since i do not use OTL tube amps they will not work for me and in your case they work for you, because of your type of amplfication.
In the end regardless of how we spin the science each designer is putting his 2 cents on how things should "sound" , their interpretation and presentation of what one should expect..
IMO, Everyone is right, because so much is still wrong.
Regards, |
My mother always told me that she saw nothing wrong in a healthy debate.... of course, she was always the initiator! (instigator) Love those moms |
Weseixas, when I use the term 'efficient' or 'efficiency' with regards to speakers its usually with the 1 watt/1 meter spec in mind. If you say 'sensitive' or 'sensitivity' to me in the same context I assume you are talking 2.83V/1 meter.
Not into caffeine, but I think you will find that a good majority of dome tweeters are indeed rated at 2 watts, with some of greater power handling, although the latter is less common than the former. I'm not used to seeing horn tweeters that handle less than 2 watts, and I have seen them handling as much as 15 watts; with immensely higher efficiencies (10X) that horns have over domes, this can be a significant advantage. |
Weseixas, I am not knocking Thiel. The man was someone I met and shared ideas with, and I represented his products for years. In fact, it was he who gave me the idea to "deaden" the Lascala enclosures. This was a long time ago, and the audio community, as well as his family, misses him. However, I am discussing certain limitations of the 3.5s, in comparison to my Lascalas, as well as some other horns I have listened to. When we talk about scale and dynamics, using full range orchestral music, at my preferred listening level of 100db, the 3.5s are not very good, to my ears, whatever amp drove them. I am not alone. People were always trading up from the 3.5's (in fact,there is a fellow in my neighborhood, who after hearing my system, now has his 3.5s listed on Craig's list, he is looking for $500. or so ). Actually, the midrange and treble of the 3.5s always sounded better in these respects sans the eq, but none the less the eq was necessary. I do not care for Unsound, because he uses words like "obnoxious" to describe horns, which his very delicate ears cannot tolerate. And my presumptions about him are correct. And yes, I was giving it back, so to speak, as I had done to you as well. I wish things were more civil, but it appears that the two of you always take it one step further, although you play 2nd to him. So good for you. Any other questions or comments I will respond. Take care. |
http://sound.westhost.com/articles/pwr-vs-eff.htm |
When I went from KHorns I went to Full Range Drivers. To me they give a lot of what the KHorns gave without a certain "shout." I listen a lot more now.
I can't recommend any in the $8K range though, more like $2K.
Not sure if Renmeister is still listening, he hasn't posted in this thread in about a month, can't say I blame him. When I switched I'm glad I didn't ask...Jeez |
JohnK, I found the link to be very interesting and informative. Thank you |
|
Atmasphere, the issue I have is that we have to have these same damn "discussions" every time horn comes up on Audiogon. Zealot troll, there is enough of this on both sides.
"It doesn't matter what you or the others think sound the "best", that's the choice we all have and make when we put together " our" system."
That is exactly my position, but what I read from you and Unsound does not give me the impression you guys really feel that way. We all know by now that you and Unsound find no redeeming qualities to horn speakers. We get, it. We don't need to be reminded each and every time a horn thread comes up on Audiogon. Why not just let the "zealots" have their fun?
Are you sure the OP got out of horns? He certainly got tired of you and Unsound. |
Dan ed, I do not think you are directing this last post to the right person( Atmasphere is not the one ). Atmasphere is one of the good guys ! |
Dan_ed, as usual you are wrong .... |
