Planars and electrostatics are "coherent" in the mid range, which creates magic. They are also great with stage holography, if set up correctly. However, there comes a point with the volume control that they loose this magic by congesting, as most dynamic speakers do (ime). I think it is important to understand what the listener wants and what the habits are. I do not listen at a low level(hence my Agon name) through my main system. My normal levels exceed 100 db. I am not sure how many of you listen at this same level. So, for me, a good quality horn is the way I went. Being a ss guy, I much prefer an amp with 2 output transistors per channel than say 8, 12 or even 20. My speakers allow this. My system is a good compromise(yes I said it). It has the ability to take my recorded music and simulate a performance, based on what "I" want the performance to be. It does have detail, proper harmonic structure and tone, coherence, spatial holography and all of those other "audiophile" things. However, I have said it before. Without being excellent in "PRAT" and dynamic swings, it would not approach that "live" perspective I value so much. It is critical to listen for yourself to determine what it is that you want a system to do for you. Also, tweaking everything is also critical. I think many people on Audiogon, and elsewhere, do not know what they want.The last statement. I am at a point that I do not think of changing a thing in my system, which says it all. I wish everyone happy listening......MrD |
Atmasphere, thank you......And yes, set up, gear and care upstream is vital......... |
I find damping characteristics audible with all kinds of music, with all kinds of speaker/amp combos. How and why it all works, I will leave that to others here, who go beyond having just ears, such as myself. |
Dan ed, well said in 1 paragraph. Strengths and weaknesses equals compromise. It is important to understand what each one of us wants from a system. Equipment reviews and forum opinions/experiences are great, but it takes years, IME, for trial and error to make some determinations of what is right and wrong for each of us. Atmasphere made the point that speaker/room/listener interaction is very important, as well as everything else upstream. So right. This takes time, patience, experience, know how and money in most cases, never achieving the expected results. Other factors such as room build and dimensions, and ac power design/execution play critical roles in all of this. In my many years ( and fortunately early on ), I had the pleasure of being invited to the home of my college music professor. Sitting in this room was a pair of Khorns, driven by a pair of M 9's, 7C , 15 ips master tapes, t.table with Rabco arm, and recordings of every genre. Served wine and cheese, with many hours to listen, I was so captivated, this was that moment for me. Everyone needs to have an experience like this, so they can have "direction". So now I own horns, with ss gear, and spend a good hour or 2 at a time listening when I can. Never thinking about changing a thing, other than what am I in the mood to listen to. Thank you for listening to my story. Mr D. |
Weseixas, I believe it was you who said this was not a horn thread. If you read the original post by Renmeister, and I recommend you read it slowly or have some one read it to you, he is talking about 1 problem only. That was the integration or "coherence" of the bass to the horns. He does speak of attributes of what he enjoyed and speaks of weaknesses of things he has been listening to. I wish we can all be adults. Renmeister, maybe you should listen to a pair of Klipsch Lascala series 2. I believe they need to be raised off the floor (I like them with a slight tilt back) and you can keep them near the rear wall. Like any speaker, they will need room tweaking, but they might allow you to "get into the music" and forget about all this other BS. I am not suggesting they are the best, but at your price point you might be able to "stack a pair". |
Being this is a horn thread of sorts, has anyone noticed in the virtual reality system section of Audiogon, the system/room of Cuong Pham. Talk about a horn......Wow.... |
Unsound, I was waiting for you to come on over with your bashing. I can handle it now..... looks like Weseixas has company. What a shame...... |
Inna, I worked with the Jadis importer during the mid 90s and was at the '96 Stereophile show at the NYC Waldorf as the "demo" guy for 3 days. They were very complicated to set up, as the outboard crossover took a while to adjust and tweek. The Jadis reps had so much equipment on hand, and cd was the only source. We were threatened so many times by neighboring exhibitors to "shut us down", because of the volume. This was not all of my fault, as the Eurythme designer went a little crazy as well. The isobaric bass and the rest of the horn was surprisingly coherent, something that surprised me. I did hear them in a properly set up home environment and found them wonderful, much better than at the show. |
Unsound, you leave me no choice. If you are still using 3.5s and you feel "they" offer anywhere near the same dynamics as horns (I am extremely familiar with the 3.5s) . I recommend the biggest tweek to you. Qtips........I do hope you "enjoy" your system as much as I enjoy mine.......later Mr D |
Weseixas . I appreciate the response. It means I hit a nerve. Good. My comprehension is fine. Please read the original post again as to what is being said. I am a very bright 7th grader, but please let us know when you are on the show smarter than a 5th grader. I will place my bets. As far as the show, I never left the room other than a bathroom break, and the room was packed at all times. By listeners, not the police. Several other exhibitors stopped by and took a seat. I had people who had purchased cds at the show asking me to play a tune, which I did. It was a great show for us and much fun. But you keep bashing and insulting. A result of issues growing up I am sure. As a member of other forums, just a handful of you, and only on Audiogon, are many times out of line. But if you have a God complex, there are other forums about that subjet, not involving music listening. LOL |
Weseixas, P.S. The BC/Uno combo bash is not me. Sorry. Once again you are showing weaknesses in your reading comprehension, and you are getting us all confused. I hope you are a happy person and enjoy life, because you tend to "attack" quite a lot on Audiogon. I was going to ask who you represented at the show, but I don't care, because the system probably lacked dynamics. |
Thank you Audiopheil and Jax2. Support never hurts ! |
Audiokinesis. Excellent observation and well to the point. Thank you ! |
Jax2....Easy does it fella.....lol |
Weseixas, you are quite right about damping factor. Early on, with a pair of Gale 401 speakers I had once owned, a Dyna 400 I had laying around made these speakers mushy, slow and ill defined. My Ampzilla really took control of the 2 eight inch drivers in those air suspension cabinets. The amps sounded quite different in other areas, but because of the low damping factor on the Dyna, I could not listen to it for long. |
Atmasphere, I appreciate your response. And yes, the ears are what we use to determine the sound we like. I always found that inefficient speakers (I owned many and am familiar with many)required an amp with greater damping, and in my experience, this has led to ss. And I believe the point Mapman made about the efficiency of a horn being a benefit,is valid. However, some of your previous explanations is just beyond me, even though I am somewhat educated. As far as hearing rules, I have not paid much attention to what has been written. But I have always listened with peaks at around 100db, which is a reason I own horns. They show the difference between the "soft" in music and the "loud". All with a small amp. I am aware of the danger to exposing oneself to loud sounds. I am not concerned. |
Just an add on. I have always placed dynamic range as the most important virtue of any system. However, prat is very very close in importance to me . I need to follow the "playing" of the musicians. There is tonal coherence and agility coherence. By improperly matching damping characteristics between amp and speaker, you can ruin prat. |
Shadorne, Klipsch uses the "non aggressive" horn type you mention. However, because of the horn type AG uses, I find the seated distance between them and the listener needs to be greater,ime. However I have "heard" this rule be broken in many cases. I have heard many Lascalas (and Khorns for that matter)in which the owners have changed out the mid horn(to Altecs mostly)and I have not liked it as much as the original. I felt it threw the balance and coherence off. Other things as well. All of these horn designs were available to PWK, but I think he made excellent choices for his models. I know it is a matter of personal taste. |
Larry, the way you say your words are eloquent and precise. It is also wonderful to hear someone else speak of "individualism", "preferences" and "compromise", with out the bashing of others. Thank you again for being a GREAT Audiogon community member. Always, MrD. |
P.S. T bone I had a great time during the '96 Stereophile show, showing off, for 3 wonderful days, the Eurythmie speakers, along with other Jadis gear. I think they are great ! |
Paulfolbrect, I was referring to the width/length of the horn/throat. I admit that the construction can be better. When you had the Khorns/Lascalas did you do any damping to the mid horn (and cabinets). Every pair I was ever involved with, after damping, eliminated most of what you speak of. As a sidebar : Speaking of damping, I find most tubes have colorations and distortions until you dampen them. But please lets leave this topic to another thread. Regards... |
My Lascala's have been with me longer than any other speakers and / or gear for my main listening room. Other things have come and gone, but they have proven the test of time, and, enjoyment. |
Larry, very well said, although I have said it before and others before me. Find what your priorities and preferences are, and go from there. Thanks, Mrd |
Larry, if I am correct, the deluding ourselves remark was made as a generalization about all of us, not just the horn lovers, correct ? That is how I read it. Again, thank you for your words. MrD |
This is all so interesting. I know many people who love music as much as myself, but many of them own a Bose wave radio or something similar to that. And when music plays, they can get up and dance and enjoy it for what it is. We (Audiogon members)on the other hand spend some major dollars on equipment and room set up, to hear these same recordings. If it is not to bring us a more "lifelike" presentation, why do we do it ? The only delusion is when you think it is as good as live music, which it could never be(I started another threat about this recently, but it died very quickly with only a handful of respondents). There are more Audiogon members who strive for great imaging and soundstaging, and if one feels that an artist has just appeared several feet in front to them, slightly left, that does not make them delusional. The Audiogon community is trying to extract any realism from our recordings. So I ask you all, why not simply own a Bose wave radio or something of that nature ? |
Loudness cues are critical in music creation and re-creation. Compression on the other hand......It is time for someone to move up from his 3.5s, imo. |
My experiences with 3.5s is that even at 100 db they show signs of serious compression, as well as ill defined bass and peaky treble, and this was with Krell amplification, a better match than Threshold, ime. 100 db is a volume that I do listen at, and good horns do this well. I do not believe room size matters when discussing loudness cues. At a lower listening level, dynamics are still apparent in recordings and the speaker can either deliver them or not. The bashing that the two mentioned posters speak has not bothered me in quite a while. It is actually amusing, because I do not think either of these individuals have spent much time around live, unamplified music, leaving them with a dislike of anything close. I will continue on this thread, enjoying myself, and knowing the truth. So bash all you want. Your 3.5s do not sound anything like live music, just a good hifi speaker. However, I will never bash you because this is the sound you go for. To each his own. I take that back. I am still awaiting your shipping address for the shipment of the Qtips. Enjoy ! |
Unsound, just for the record, I have stated many many times that I own a pair of Klipsch Lascalas, so maybe you were not paying attention. |
Zealot- According to Wikipedia - noun meaning : 'adherent, loyalist, enthusiast, patriot. Thank you Unsound for complimenting us ! You need to get over yourself.... |
Weseixas, I am not knocking Thiel. The man was someone I met and shared ideas with, and I represented his products for years. In fact, it was he who gave me the idea to "deaden" the Lascala enclosures. This was a long time ago, and the audio community, as well as his family, misses him. However, I am discussing certain limitations of the 3.5s, in comparison to my Lascalas, as well as some other horns I have listened to. When we talk about scale and dynamics, using full range orchestral music, at my preferred listening level of 100db, the 3.5s are not very good, to my ears, whatever amp drove them. I am not alone. People were always trading up from the 3.5's (in fact,there is a fellow in my neighborhood, who after hearing my system, now has his 3.5s listed on Craig's list, he is looking for $500. or so ). Actually, the midrange and treble of the 3.5s always sounded better in these respects sans the eq, but none the less the eq was necessary. I do not care for Unsound, because he uses words like "obnoxious" to describe horns, which his very delicate ears cannot tolerate. And my presumptions about him are correct. And yes, I was giving it back, so to speak, as I had done to you as well. I wish things were more civil, but it appears that the two of you always take it one step further, although you play 2nd to him. So good for you. Any other questions or comments I will respond. Take care. |
JohnK, I found the link to be very interesting and informative. Thank you |
Dan ed, I do not think you are directing this last post to the right person( Atmasphere is not the one ). Atmasphere is one of the good guys ! |
Dan ed. Thank you for clearing that up. I guess all of the readers of this forum (but me) knew who "they" both are, without the "other" name being mentioned. What was I thinking. Again, sorry. By the way, your system looks great. In all my years involved in forums, as well as the industry, I have never run across individuals such as Unsound and Weseixas. Sure there have been proponents of this verses that, but never to the extent shown by these two. The fact that Jim Thiel understood and accepted my admiration for horns and, helped me improve upon them, shows a special kind of "class" that some individuals have, and, some not. Hopefully, they will learn to get along with others. It would be a welcome miracle ! However, as Atmasphere has mentioned, it keeps things interesting. But I do disagree with something Atmasphere said when welcoming opinions by "them". I do not trust their experiences, either them not knowing, or, not having enough listening exposure. Although they both claim to be experts and have listened to it all. I can understand why one does not like horns, but please......One day they will understand that one person likes chocolate and another likes vanilla(actually, Weseixas sought of said this just recently). So maybe there is hope. Have a good day ! Always MrD |
Like a fly that I swatted several times, but keeps returning to annoy me. Not a wasp, bee or mosquito, because they inflict pain, but just a fly, a regular household fly, just an annoyance....shoo shoo. |
I suggest these "two" read the original op again, and the accompanying paragraph. Very plainly he speaks positively about horns, but not other designs he has listened to. Duh........... Bass to horn integration was what he lacked. He had dynamics which he loved. Unsound, you think your 3.5s would have satisfied him. No, because they are lifeless and contrived (to some of us). Stop annoying us. We all sent Renmeister away because of the two of you. You would not let the horn loving community help him. Shame shame, shoo shoo. |
One boy's personal opinion.....I know many many musicians who own horn speakers, from simple Klipsch Heresys to, you name it. I can tell you that these individuals are not wrong in their musical assessments. What they all have in common is the day to day exposure to live music. So, if horns sound closest to live music ( dynamics,scale,speed,prat,etc. ), to these individuals ( even with all of their "opinionated" problems mentioned by you know who ), who is he to say otherwise. Again, his words are trivial and mean nothing, but yet he continues to speak. I say to these two : keep bringing it on. |
I am not sure how this thread will continue from here, if at all, so I just wanted to say I have enjoyed this "post", even though there were some rough spots. As a horn owner, and more importantly, an audiophile/music lover, I feel that I have made some fine aquaintances here, even of some who are not owners of horns. The exchanging of ideas, attitudes and good information, was enlightening and entertaining. I still feel Audiogon is a great place to be, so it will be my pleasure to continue to see you all again. Mr D |
Weseixas, I try to be nice, and you, must once again, prove you are an A hole. I will say your bug species is more enduring than I had anticipated. Shoo shoo....... |
Weseixas, You still do not understand the words of Renmeister in his original post, amazing. Except for you and Unsound, my words have plenty of substance, here on this thread anyway. My comments about Unsound's 3.5s are without question true statements, when talking about dynamic range and scale. How dare you accuse me of rubbing up to the late Jim Thiel. He was a fine gentleman and engineer, and if not for him, my cabinets might have taken longer to modify. I do like other products of his, although I still prefer horns. "Blow the socks off" statements once again shows your ignorance of the fact that people like what they like, but this is not good enough for you. So who has proven who's case ! I wish my system (and home) would allow for 120db, but I will stick with my 100db levels. And, not many of your "stated" speakers play cleanly at that level, so you can keep them. As a die hard Jazz lover, not many speakers can play back Miles or Coltrane any where close to my Lascalas. Remember, here, on this thread, you and Unsound are the outcasts. That's all, for now ........ |
T bone You and I (and everyone else other than Unsound)see eye to eye (ear to ear)about Weseixas. They have their description of us(zealots)and we have ours of them(trolls). He speaks nonsense. He has actually made statements about engineers who make the recordings, indicating they are deaf and lack taste. So he is knocking everyone. Wow. I am looking forward to more garbage from these guys. Duke, if you can learn to ignore these 2, we would still love to hear from you and what you have to say. Remember, on this particular thread, Weseixas and Unsound are by themselves, they are the out casts, even though they do not see it. It shows psychological problems these to have about being grown ups, and men, for that matter(as I am referred to as boy). This is a joke. My psychiatrist friend has read some of this thread(he is not interested in audio), and rather than laugh about these 2, he has found rather disturbing behavior patterns. So I am loving this all. Sorry to see Duke bow out. There is power in numbers. Again, it has been my pleasure to part of this. |
One of the best musical experiences of a non horn system was a pair of MBL 101s in a room that was, admittedly, too small for them(I spent many hours, on different days, listening, as they were owned by a close friend). The sound was incredible and very involving. I could easily live with these. Yes, I said it. Connected to them was a top end tube preamp and a powerful, top end ss amp. Because I value so many traits that horns possess, it is hard for me to ultimately feel satisfied with many a speaker. I can appreciate time coherence and spatial imaging of many of these high end systems, but if the sound cannot convey that "musician magic", if you will, it does not keep my interest. But, again I say it, to each his own, and let's all live happily ever after. P.S. : "Musician magic" is my wording, of the ability to follow, and feel, each musician in a recording. |
I will not even try to respond to Unsound, but applaud his exit. |
For giggles, I just read Unsound's 2nd post. Are you kidding ? Begging for a rebuttal ? The OP wants something else ? Other designs are capable of the same dynamics ? I will leave it at that ! |
Mapman, I completely agree with your assessments, although, I still do not think those "non dynamic" live performances are easily duplicated by a system. But it can be close. Whenever I listen, tweak and/or evaluate a system, I bring along two Sheffield Labs recordings. The Drum and Track record, and Prime Cuts. I have used these for years. They show me immediately all strengths and weaknesses in a system. I use these as a reference because of my familiarity with them and, my liking of them. Once I approach my preferred listening levels, it is quite amazing what findings become apparent. |
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Mapman, I have owned many speakers in my lifetime, and have experienced many more, and agree than many can do many things well. The point that I make is that people should listen to and experience as much as possible, and then decide what is best for them. My two best "audiophile" friends own top B&W and Martin Logan based systems, and they sound very good. The sound staging and imaging are great. The B&W system is the "ballsier" of the two and the Martin Logan system is very "delicate". However, I enjoy mine more. In fact, to me, there is no comparison. When they visit, they want the sweet spot for the duration. They both listen at lower levels than I do, but always leave saying "wow". They continue to own what they own, and I am very happy for them. I have never tried or wanted to change their minds, although they come to me for advice on many purchases and the like. I am very happy that many people can enjoy their systems, whether they be horns or not. Ultimately I have found the system that fits me best, and I will defend this point(fits me best)to those such as Unsound and Weseixas, who cannot accept this basic principal, nor be civil about it. It is my pleasure to have this correspondence.....again, I am in complete agreement with you. |
Renmeister, You have been away so long, and I am so sorry. I was obviously part of it all. I do believe help is still here if you want it, whatever direction you go, and not just by me.... You are welcome to email me if you prefer privacy. Always, MrDecibel |
The Volti speakers use a cabinet design quite similar to the Klipsch Lascala, particularly the doghouse portion(the bass horn). I think they are great alternative to the Lascala II, at not much more money(although I have not heard a pair). But what I have read about them is very alluring .I find excellent coherence between all 3 drivers in the Lascala(after cabinet mods)(and Khorn), and because of the non corner placement requirements, as of the Khorn, they are more versatile. Granted, I have heard some excellent Khorn/room set ups which were wonderful sounding, but corner positioning led to other issues, which with some work, can be overcome. I am not touting them to be the best, but at the price points, with some tweaking, even for the new ones, they do more good than bad, and are still competitive with others today. I would like to listen to a pair of the Volti's in the near future. |
Macrojack, not taking anything away from the Volti, the Klipsch Khorn, Lascala and Belle are full range horns.......... |
Macrojack, not how I read it, but fully accepted. Mods and parts upgrades for Klipsch have been available for many, many years now, and there are a great number of proud and happy owners, including myself of course. Other forums are out there with a greater number of "Klipsch" or "horn" fanatics. On these forums are a great number of individuals who offer these upgrades. I am a die hard PWK follower, and he still leads the pack in "design", with his "Heritage" models, imo. If ever in Central Florida, you are welcome to stop by and hear what a $2K investment, with lots of time, can produce. Maybe not as good as a Volti, but excellent non the less, and hard to beat at anywhere near the price. Thank you for you time. MrD |
