What does one purchase after owning horns?
Unsound, I will gladly help you. I am sure there are some horns that suck or blow as you put it. But there are also great horns. I have yet to hear a speaker better than the AG Trio. Like any speaker there are set up issues(placement/amplification etc), but once dealt with you will be done. If you enjoy your Theils, you will die when you hear an AG Trio set up. |
I have never heard Trios, but I tend to believe what Chadeffect says having moved from Apogees and high power Class D to Trios and some flea powered tube amp and having discussed the differences and similarities between the two quite extensively on his virtual system page. He was running his Bel Canto ref1000 monoblocs with the Trios for a bit when he first changed from Apogees and reported good results, which surprised but impressed me. An amp that sounds good on both Apogees and high efficiency horns has to have something going for it. Knowing his background and experiences, I seriously doubt Chad would be living even this long with the AGs if they had the stereotypical horn issues. Hey but one person's panacea can easily be another's pox. ya just never know..... |
Yes, Weseixas. If, You and Unsound would just simply "pass" on threads concerning horns instead of trolling for arguments the rest of us could get on with what we like to discuss. We horn lovers get that you guys don't like horns. Myself, I don't give a shit whether or not you two "get it" or not, which is why I don't try to convert anyone. |
Weseixas, I see you are just a troll trying to pick a fight. I will not waste any more time on you. Have a good day. Unsound, I agree entirely. If horns were so very much better than everything else then why are they marginalized to such a small segment of the market. Horns are mostly used in PA and live sound reinforcement. While in the home, they are rare enough to be considered a novelty. Of course, horns can sound outstanding...but the zealots here insist there is nothing else that can even be considered as an alternative??? |
I heard These custom GOTO horns last year at capital Audiofest in DC. They were among the best in show and a lot of fun to listen to. The presenters shyed away from playing anything digital though. Their phono rig was much superior to the CD setup. I had to take what I hard with a grain of salt as a result. |
This has started to get a little daft. Weseixas, if your comment was aimed at me regarding Bel canto I would be glad to explain. Before the AG Trio I had all sorts of planars. Magnepan 3.6r Apogee Duetta Sigs & Divas, ML CLS, Quad ESL to name a few. At the time I tried the AG Uno too. I realized the Uno had qualities in spades which I had struggled with to get any of my planars to do. To get some life out of these wonderful planar speakers I tried every amp you can throw a stick at. Tubes,SS from 100w to 1,000w. When the BC amps came out with an amp the size of a shoe able to stick 1000w into a 4 ohm speaker that ran cold, I thought I had died & gone to heaven. They did a great job on the Duettas, they were cable of controlling and squeezing that last bit out of a bass ribbons and had the cleanest leading edge I had heard until then. Leaving all my other amps sounding slow,fat and tired. When the Trios arrived I had not decided on an amp for them. I still had a cupboard full of giant powerful amps which I had amassed after years of planars. So I stuck the BCs on the Trio. They were so clean, amazingly quick and detailed. Without some harmonic texture granted, but in theory this was a daft combination, but it sounded very good. Now I have ended up with flea power SETs. A world I could never have entertained before. This is why I bothered writing to help with this question. Our friend is finding it hard to replace his Uno. I know why. The alternatives are difficult. His issue was about bass integration with his Uno. So get a bigger AG where the Bass is cut off lower and is able to be moved anywhere in the room and can use a simple amplifier. Thats all. This thread has got complicated with all sorts of random alternatives. From ATCs, Apogees, Genelec, and Soundlabs. It is simple. The AG is the closest to a live person playing I had heard. Not a distant copy. It is still the same after a longtime owning a pair. I never think about speakers these days. To be honest I have access to most of the other speakers systems mentioned here. I never bring them home and when I have to use them I am reminded how superior the Trio is to them in just about every aspect. I am not saying this because I have one. I have one because I tried the rest. |
My gut take is that good horns that are not "shouty" are quite difficult and expensive to design and build. However there are some that do it right and these can be quite exceptional (but still not the ONLY way to excel). Again the sad but true dilemma that the really good horns will be big and expensive and out of reach and or not practical for most. |
Hi Inna, I have tried the Trio with various Audio Note amps. I did like the Audio note on the Trio, but it was a slightly old fashioned sound but very musical, especially with the 300b monos. I just not a 300b lover. I have not tried the Lamm on them as I had some many years ago. Although I did try an amp with the same tube as the Lamm (6c33c). The Trio sounds very different with SS or Tube and seems to be very revealing of tube type. i.e 300b, 45, 2A3, 6c33c, El34 and so on. For me the 45 had a dream combination of transparency and tone. Do you mean the Jadis Eurythme speakers? They are beautiful to look at but I have not heard them. I guess if discussing them there are also the Acapella speakers to. The tweeter is the finest I have heard. Unfortunately impossible to match with other drivers IMHO. I dream of a full range plasma speaker! Damn the laws of physics. |
Inna, I worked with the Jadis importer during the mid 90s and was at the '96 Stereophile show at the NYC Waldorf as the "demo" guy for 3 days. They were very complicated to set up, as the outboard crossover took a while to adjust and tweek. The Jadis reps had so much equipment on hand, and cd was the only source. We were threatened so many times by neighboring exhibitors to "shut us down", because of the volume. This was not all of my fault, as the Eurythme designer went a little crazy as well. The isobaric bass and the rest of the horn was surprisingly coherent, something that surprised me. I did hear them in a properly set up home environment and found them wonderful, much better than at the show. |
I have nver considered horns until I herd the Avantgarde Duo, and Duo Omega. They did all the hifi stuff, imaging, ect. and then there were dynamics and then more dynamics, micro, macro, speed of electrostatics, timber, harmonics to die for. There was not a trace of horn honking, shouty, edgy stuff that I associated with some horns in the 60's & 70's. The only problem was the acoustic bass did not keep up with the lower midrange horn. Maybe it was the cross over point or the inability of the subs to cover high enuff. I for one could not get it right. God I tried. Has any one herd the Devore Orangutan's? They may exceed my budget? But from people whom I trust they claimed they are well designed, efficient, with many of the attributes I enjoy. So they say! |
Weseixas, I believe it was you who said this was not a horn thread. If you read the original post by Renmeister, and I recommend you read it slowly or have some one read it to you, he is talking about 1 problem only. That was the integration or "coherence" of the bass to the horns. He does speak of attributes of what he enjoyed and speaks of weaknesses of things he has been listening to. I wish we can all be adults. Renmeister, maybe you should listen to a pair of Klipsch Lascala series 2. I believe they need to be raised off the floor (I like them with a slight tilt back) and you can keep them near the rear wall. Like any speaker, they will need room tweaking, but they might allow you to "get into the music" and forget about all this other BS. I am not suggesting they are the best, but at your price point you might be able to "stack a pair". |
The Acoustic Horn AH 300 may be the best mid range horn available to mankind. The guys who designed and built the Cogent Field Coil driver chose it to showcase their product. You can have a pair custom built for you with adapters hand made for the drivers you choose to use for $2700/pair in maple. Other wood choices require a small upcharge. Because this horn can reach down as low as 350 Hz. it is easier to integrate with your dynamic woofers than horns which have to cross higher. In the context of high-end audio, this option is neither large or expensive -and the high efficiency allows you to use tiny amplifiers. My 15 watt amplifier loafs along. I hope this helps you. |
Mrdecibel.. You need to work on your reading comprehension , but not to worry by the time you leave the 7th grade things might improve. I was present and exhibited at the NYC stereophile show and the reason for the many request was due to the "noise" honking out of that room, nothing else, very annoying to all , not just exhibitors and i'm also very familiar with BC and on a uno, well let me just say you would have to be tone deaf to live with that combination.. Heck based on the "noise" you were making back then, for sure you are... Audiofeil: Things could be worst than working at Walmart, i could be selling used hi-fi for a living from my living room ......LOL |
Ohhh just in case you Horn zealots missed it, Renmeister has asked for other recommendations as he has moved on from owning horns and the tone is " jump back in " there is nothing betta ... Check yourselves ................. I have never told anyone not to buy or use horns, unlike you I'm aware there are many who cannot live with the coloration, time and phase distortions of horns regardless of how much the music jumps out at them in the dark.. Regards.... |
Just as disparaging general statements made about planars overlook some interesting exceptions, so too disparaging generalities about horns overlook interesting exceptions. Despite the title of the thread, I think it's well within the spirit of Renmeister's inquiry for horn advocates to reply with recommendations that are likely to have similar qualities to his present system but without the bass integration issue. Duke dealer/manufacturer |
Weseixas . I appreciate the response. It means I hit a nerve. Good. My comprehension is fine. Please read the original post again as to what is being said. I am a very bright 7th grader, but please let us know when you are on the show smarter than a 5th grader. I will place my bets. As far as the show, I never left the room other than a bathroom break, and the room was packed at all times. By listeners, not the police. Several other exhibitors stopped by and took a seat. I had people who had purchased cds at the show asking me to play a tune, which I did. It was a great show for us and much fun. But you keep bashing and insulting. A result of issues growing up I am sure. As a member of other forums, just a handful of you, and only on Audiogon, are many times out of line. But if you have a God complex, there are other forums about that subjet, not involving music listening. LOL |
Weseixas, P.S. The BC/Uno combo bash is not me. Sorry. Once again you are showing weaknesses in your reading comprehension, and you are getting us all confused. I hope you are a happy person and enjoy life, because you tend to "attack" quite a lot on Audiogon. I was going to ask who you represented at the show, but I don't care, because the system probably lacked dynamics. |
>>04-03-11: Weseixas Audiofeil: Things could be worst than working at Walmart<< I suppose it could be worse (not worst as you write). BTW, are you part and parcel to the class action suit where minorities (in your case whining little weenie white guys with no balls) have not been promoted? Although you are a living and shining example of the Peter Principle. |
Although you are a living and shining example of the Peter Principle. I think there's even a bit of John Gabriel's theory at work right here on this illuminating thread as well. I read a post a while back on another site that is worth reflecting on in all of this, who's worshiping the right speaker God, talk: (big snip from larger post by DeadEars on Head-Fi.org)Language is really an imperfect tool for describing subjective reality. My audio system presents a set of stimuli (as does wine) which my brain interprets as a musical event. But of course it is simply an illusion, not really true, since I don't have live musicians playing in front of me. And who is to say that my illusion is better than your illusion? Hey it's happening in my head, right? |
Is it just me? I read the title of this thread, "What does one purchase after owning horns?", and thought the owner was looking for alternatives to horns but a speaker that retained many of the great things the OP likes about horns? (and English is my first language...) However somehow we ended up with a toddlers fight in a sandbox? I wonder how any of this is intended to help the OP or is it simply an outlet for those with anger management issues and baggage/agendas from previous threads (the last sandbox fight)? |
Renmeister, there is a "free lunch" available when combining low-damping-factor specialty tube amplifiers and speakers designed to work well with such. The low damping factor in effect changes the woofer's electrical damping in a way that increases bass output relative to what you'd get with a solid state amp. If the speaker designer anticipated this, he has tuned the box so that instead of the lower damping factor giving you a bass hump, it gives you more extended low bass. Aside from dynamics, one of the things a good horn speaker does well is radiation pattern control, and as a result the reverberant energy in the room usually has a similar spectral balance to the first-arrival sound. This is one of the ways in which a good horn system emulates the behavior of live instruments, and is generally not a characteristic of more conventional speakers (though as one might anticipate from my post just upthread, there are exceptions!). I believe that minimizing the spectral discrepancy between the direct and reverberant sound reduces listening fatigue, and can explain why if anyone is interested. |
Shadorne - What I got from Renmeister's opening post was this: He sold his horns because he was unable to integrate the horn he loved with his bass output. So he went looking for alternatives and found no non-horns that matched what he had given up. That led him to ask for suggestions as to how he might overcome this seeming contradiction. I think your ATC speakers might well be the answer but I'm basing that on reputation, having never experienced them myself. Most of the other realistic suggestions focused on other horn options or wave guides (another name for horns?) or highly efficient conventional models. And a few have mentioned ways he could use the speakers he no longer has more advantageously. For the most part the thread has been constructive. But, as you suggested, Weseixas the Troll could not resist disrupting a thread about horns with his unwanted praise of all things planar. Unsound tried to resist corrupting for as long as he could but ultimately had to enter as well being as he is only human. However, if we ignore their nonsense, there is no reason why this thread cannot return to its original constructive path. If any of you feel certain that you do not like horns then go quietly in whatever direction you prefer. Those of us who do like them would like to have an adult conversation without your petulant interruptions. Thank you for your co-operation in this matter. I promise not to invade your planar threads. |
The low damping factor in effect changes the woofer's electrical damping in a way that increases bass output relative to what you'd get with a solid state amp. If the speaker designer anticipated this, he has tuned the box so that instead of the lower damping factor giving you a bass hump, it gives you more extended low bass.I hear that:) BTW Duke - the High Z output (12 ohm) won out. I believe that minimizing the spectral discrepancy between the direct and reverberant sound reduces listening fatigue, and can explain why if anyone is interested. Please do explain. |
Duke, I realize you are not saying that horns "beam" when you mention "radiation pattern control", but that and other comments here seem to imply that a very limited sweet spot is produced by horn systems. Admitting my own experience with horn systems is limited, I question this condition. I own a pair of rear loaded horns (C&C BEN) which may not qualify but a good friend first had AG Unos and now AG Duos. I believe his room is 20' wide with the Duos spaced by 10-11' with moderate toe-in. I can sit directly in front of one speaker and still hear a defined stereo image spread. This is not to suggest there is not a more precise soundstage presentation when seated in the middle sweet spot but in his room/set up I find his horns to present at least as wide of a good listening area as any box system I've heard in that room. Perhaps this is aided by the 4-5' separation from the side walls (a point which seems contrary to some other comments on horn systems). If you would comment further it would be appreciated. |
Clio09, the listening fatigue thing goes back to how the ear/brain system processes sound. When a sound first reaches the ears, a copy of it is stored in a short-term memory. Then for the next twenty milliseconds or so, all other incoming sounds are compared with the sound(s) in our short-term memory, to see if they are NEW sounds or REFLECTIONS, that is, repetitions of the original signal. If they are reflections, then they're largely ignored as far as directional cues go. This is called the "precedence effect" or "Haas effect", after the researcher who first reliably described it. During this interval, reflections still contribute to loudness and perceived timbre. Now the way the ear/brain system determines whether an incoming sound is a new sound or a reflection is by "looking" at its spectrum. If the spectrum is the same (or close to) that of a sound that's in the short-term memory, then it's a reflection. If it's obvoiusly different, then it's a new sound. So, what about a reflection that's quite a bit different from the original? Well that hasn't been thoroughly investigated yet, but I believe we would find a continuum along which a spectrally-different reflection goes from "easy for the ear/brain system to correctly classify as a reflection" to "too distorted to be reliably classified". And I think that as the spectrum of the reflection differs more and more from that of the first-arrival sound, the more processing the ear/brain system has to do to correctly classify the reflection. In computer terms, it's like a task that uses up a lot of CPU power... and so the CPU heats up (we get a head-ache, after about 15 or 20 minutes): Listening fatigue. This isn't its only cause, but I believe it is a fairly common one. Now remember that during the time the ear/brain system is ignoring directional cues from reflections, they are still contributing to loudness and perceived timbre. So a speaker may measure "flat" on-axis, but not sound "flat" because of the timbre-skewing contribution of the reverberant energy. * * * * Roscoeiii, I don't know the inner workings (including the impedance curve) of enough other manufacturers' speakers to give a really good answer to your question. Coincident comes to mind, and I think that KCS and PiSpeakers and Omega Loudspeakers and Tonian Labs are likewise strong candidates. Yours truly uses a variable-length port system so the box tuning can be adjusted for different amplifier damping factors (and different low-frequency acoustic environments). |
Weseixas, you are quite right about damping factor. Early on, with a pair of Gale 401 speakers I had once owned, a Dyna 400 I had laying around made these speakers mushy, slow and ill defined. My Ampzilla really took control of the 2 eight inch drivers in those air suspension cabinets. The amps sounded quite different in other areas, but because of the low damping factor on the Dyna, I could not listen to it for long. |
