Macrojack, what horns do you have? Be happy, in 40 plus years in audio, I have had eight different horn systems, but not now. I still love their speed and efficiency. |
Renmeister, I just noticed this thread. I have been at audio for 40 plus years. I repeatedly tried horns beginning with Klipsch corner horns, then electrostats, then dynamic drivers, then electrostats, then horns, including the Duos and Trios, then dynamic drivers, then partial horns the Acapella LaCompanellas, and now back to dynamic drivers. By my count I have owned 24 different speakers.
You will never hear horn dynamics or speed out of anything else, especially if they use compression drivers. I once almost went to a five way GoTo compression driver system. But you will always have integration problems with horns. Instruments will change positions depending on where they are in frequency.
I became convinced that there was no best speaker; that all were compromises somewhere; that only a point source driver, capable of really quick peaks across the frequency range from 20 Hz to probably 100k Hz, and with efficiency of over 100 would really suffice. Fat chance of that ever being possible.
Perhaps I have given up, but I am back to dynamic drivers in the Tidal speakers. I really don't think there is a better compromise, but if you find one, please tell us about it. |
Mapman, let me be the first you tell if you find the field coil Walsh.
Johnk, I have never heard either a DIY horn system, nor one that was well integrated even in what I would call a large room. Horns don't have a bad reputation with me as they alone have the snap that characterizes some instruments. But.... |
Macrojack, I have read nothing by Weseixas, but certainly horns can have vibration issues, as do all speaker, but of course the horns are a big radiation area. In my experience a tractrix horn sounds best. How I wish I could have horn performance that got close to the size of my Tidal Contrivas. I still remember when I was looking through a friend's MJ magazine from Japan, seeing a compression drive horn system. The first picture was the guy using a broom inside the mouth of his twin subwoofers. The mouth must have been at least eight feet by eight feet. A later picture showed the area behind his house with a structure that got increasingly narrow as it went probably fifty feet up the hill behind his house. It contained the horns with the compression driver at the back end. How I would have love to hear that system. |
Lrsky, having owned the big Sound Labs and many other electrostats, I don't question that they have 'impressive' dynamics but not the speed of horns, especially compression driver horns.
I should also say that all horn systems lack horn bass systems. Yes, such bass horns are very big.
I don't think we have yet 'blended' different drivers. I well remember Nelson Pass's full-range plasma speaker that landed him in the hospital and made me sick after about 15 minutes. It also had no dynamics. I was, of course, being fanciful in asking for a full-range point source driver with great efficiency. I don't expect this will happen in my lifetime. |
I have always limited my self to talking about my experiences and making few generalizations beyond that. I think in these days of no dealers, this is as best as I can do. It is also the best reviewers can do. |
Lrsky, I am primarily centering on horns with compression drivers, such as GoTo and old Altec systems. But I am talking about what I heard when I first heard horns. The were Klipsch corner horns sitting in the storage room in a dealer's shop. I sat on a stool as he prepared to demonstrate them with a Stereo 70 amp. He put on a snare drum recording. The volume was pretty high, but the first impact about blew me off the stool. I have always recalled that experience, especially listening to recordings with drums. My grandson is a drummer. I asked him if he had ever heard an accurate recording of a drum. He simply said, no.
I don't have compression horns now, so I could not tell him to listen to drums on them. I don't think they would equal to real, but a hell of a lot closer to real than any other speakers. I think pianos are another example. Yes, I am a leading edge freak. |
Mapman, so why are there Audiogon discussions or threads? I think you have to appreciate that most audiophiles have no local dealer, that those having a dealer cannot expect to hear the broad variety of equipment on the market, and that you can often get good deals on the internet. |
Swampwalker, I have had the same experience with a piano, but I have had another live music experience. At CES many years ago when it was in Chicago, I went out to dinner at Bergoffs with a wire manufacturer, an electronic manufacturer, a reviewer, and me. They had a live group going from table to table. When they were nearby, I suggested that the bass was boomy with lots of overhang. The others looked at me in amazement, but one said "yes it does." We then got around to saying why that might be, with the general agreement that the room and instrument were probably responsible. I would also note that few live performances are unamplified, the group in Bergoffs had no amplification.
Finally, I would say "as yet" we cannot give the illusion of live, but there is no question for me that we have greatly improved the illusion in most systems in the last twenty years. Horns may be the exception. We haven't surpassed the Klipsch horns or the WE horns. I heard a two tube WE 205 amp driving a single Altec concentric horn system long ago at a VSAT conference and heard what I had never heard before or since. Why did I not buy it? Because there was only one, and I didn't expect that I would ever find another. The dealer wrote later to say he had found a second but was going to keep both for his system. Why he wrote to tell me this, I haven't a clue, but it ruined my day. |
Dave_b, I agree about the Totems and would add the Reference 3A Grand Veenas while you can still get the Murata supertweeter. But neither comes near the speed of compression driver horns. Nevertheless, I will probably not go back to horns for a third time. |
Macrojack, one hears about high frequency hearing loss in males, but I have never seen any convincing documentation of this. I have had audiologists tell me that many have sagging frequency responses between 1000 Hz and 5000 Hz. I can just get a hint of 16k Hz.
Nevertheless, I think that tweeters are a central part of what makes a quality speaker. The diamond tweeter on the Tidal Contriva Discera SEs is one of its strong points. |
Mapman, certainly, but there are problems for all varieties of speakers. As I said, I miss the speed of horns but am happy with my Tidals. |
Dave_b, I agree about the Totems and would add the Reference 3A Grand Veenas while you can still get the Murata supertweeter. But neither comes near the speed of compression driver horns. Nevertheless, I will probably not go back to horns for a third time. |
T_bone, while I agree with you, I find this entire pro/anti horn thing too reminiscent of subject v. objective discussions-probably best left to late in the night bar discussions. I have never understood why those not wanting to have horns feel they need to tell others that. I certainly don't care why they feel that way.
As I have said, I very much miss their quickness and think no other driver even gets close. But I also think compression drivers on horns are a must for this. Nevertheless, after owning seven different horn systems, I haven't had them in several years. Some horn systems have so much space between the horns, such as the Avantgarde Trios, that you hear one instrument in different locations depending on which note is being played. Also to get really deep bass you need monster horns.
I have basically chosen a three was ceramic driver, 187 pound each system with an excellent tweeter and good bass down to probably 40 Hz. Does a snare drum sound real? Of course, not. Am I happy? Yes.
I would just suggest that you ignore Weseixas. |
Mapman, obviously any duplex or coaxial horn speaker is the exception to what you say as are single driver horn speakers.
The Feastrex 5" field coil driver has great promise, but even there I don't expect that they can ever get great bass out of it. |
Dalecrommie, thanks for the heads up. I had never heard of these. I still fondly remember Klipschorns, but I must say that I was only happy with the corner horns. |
