What does one purchase after owning horns?

I heard These custom GOTO horns last year at capital Audiofest in DC.

They were among the best in show and a lot of fun to listen to.

The presenters shyed away from playing anything digital though. Their phono rig was much superior to the CD setup. I had to take what I hard with a grain of salt as a result.

Gotta know the amp unless you are willing to change that as well.

I'm wondering why the bass integration was such a problem though? I've heard some indicate Avantgardes need to be set up correctly to get the drivers time aligned and fully coherent. Were you able to do that?

You'll likely need other high efficiency speakers to just replace the Avantgarde (not the amp) and get what you are used to. I suspect if the amp sounded good on those that it will also sound good on other high efficiency designs.

If you can afford it, speakers using field coil drivers might be able to do some of the same things with a lower power amp. Otherwise, I think you will be challenged to get what the Avantgardes deliver.

If I could handle them, very big and expensive horns and a good flea powered amp are the only thing I would consider as an alternative to what I have, larger OHM Walsh speakers running of the most powerful yet compact and efficient Class D amps I could afford.

This approach is the total opposite of Avantgarde, but as such it achieves very excellent results using lots of power and muscle.

mbl 101s is another radically different approach that might also achieve results that raise the bar.

Neither will sound like Avantgarde though. Very different!

Another speaker design that can raise the bar in the right application in the right room (generally larger) and with the right amps are large multi-driver line source designs.

I think it comes down to if you like horns, get better ones.

There are other ways to push the limits in regards to dynamics and other aspects of good sound, but these will not sound like horns, however perhaps better than good horns even in enough other ways to matter. There is no one speaker I have heard that is teh absolute best in all regards. If there were, I would expect it to be widely known by now and there to be a consensus to that effect.

No such luck!

Honking/coloration need not be a problem with all horns, but enough of this has occurred in fact over the many years horns have been around to give horns an undeservedly bad name in this regard.

I do think only the biggest and likely also most expensive horns, like the larger AGs, are the horns that raise the barrier overall. The size and cost is also prohibitive for many too though unfortunately. That is a sad but true dilemma that even most horn lovers must be willing to face.

Added bout to upcoming Wrestlemania this weekend:

Unsound vs Dan_ed in a no holds barred "I Quit" match.....

Makes HHH versus Undertaker look like Sesame Street!

Dan_ed, use of horns are banned from this match!

Unsound may come armed with some prop tubes to use as illegal weapons but the ref will never see this.

I have never heard Trios, but I tend to believe what Chadeffect says having moved from Apogees and high power Class D to Trios and some flea powered tube amp and having discussed the differences and similarities between the two quite extensively on his virtual system page.

He was running his Bel Canto ref1000 monoblocs with the Trios for a bit when he first changed from Apogees and reported good results, which surprised but impressed me. An amp that sounds good on both Apogees and high efficiency horns has to have something going for it.

Knowing his background and experiences, I seriously doubt Chad would be living even this long with the AGs if they had the stereotypical horn issues.

Hey but one person's panacea can easily be another's pox. ya just never know.....

My gut take is that good horns that are not "shouty" are quite difficult and expensive to design and build. However there are some that do it right and these can be quite exceptional (but still not the ONLY way to excel).

Again the sad but true dilemma that the really good horns will be big and expensive and out of reach and or not practical for most.

I would expect lower damping for the low end to be more sonically synergistic with horns and compression drivers than perhaps most others. I suspect it helps to loosen things up a bit overall and contribute towards lessening any edge in the sound that might be present otherwise.

Electronic music is often where the difference between a properly and under damped system can be clearly determined. Its perhaps where I hear the single biggest difference since moving to the small yet muscular still highly damped Bel Canto ref1000ms. Well recorded electronic music is totally controlled and visceral even at high volumes (at least with my OHMs) and truly hits you in the gut as it is designed to do without any mushiness, boom or other soft or looseness.

The primary benefit of horns is efficiency. They are also cool looking (but lets put that aside for now and just focus on function, not form).

The primary drawback is that doing full range horns well is difficult and expensive.

In the end I think its six or one half dozen of another.

You can get excellent sound and dynamics with or without horns, although the electronics required are likely to differ greatly.

Two totally different means to an end with different advantages and disadvantages, not just with the design of the speakers but the system as a whole.

Question: "What does one purchase after owning horns?"

Answer: Either better horns or other high efficiency speakers or most likely a completely different system end to end.

"lack of distortion"

That's a tough case to make in reality I think.

I'll buy radiation pattern control as a another unique attribute of potential benefit.

" As in all fields, the application of generalizations is fraught with difficulties!"

Amen, brother!

"IMO the fact that horn-loaded drivers don't have to move much to make a lot of sound helps keep their distortion down."

Mass and inertia are certainly big considerations when designing any high performance speaker, no doubt.

The bending wave theory of sound propagation associated with Walsh style drivers is another design approach that I think solves much of the problem in a very unique and innovative manner.

Of course the radiation pattern of a Walsh driver is at the exact opposite end of the spectrum from horns or waveguides.

Its cool that there are so many different ways to tackle the same problem!

"martin collums measured THD at 110 db"

For those kinds of volumes, except perhaps in the case of smaller rooms, good horns in particular, like Avantgarde should shine and be a safe choice.

Again, the advantage is efficiency and the ability to GO LOUD as a result IF DONE WELL.

Of course there are many forms of distortion. THD is just the most common standard measure applied.

I should measure how loud I listen. I think it is pretty loud sometimes but does not ever approach 110db, so that might be overkill.

"the Trio is like the best planar on steroids"

Funny, but I have heard some planar users that switched to OHM Walsh speakers (like myself) use that same analogy.

Having heard all kinds of speakers over the years, including some really good modern horns, I am convinced that a pair of big, expensive high efficiency horns like AG or similar are the only ones that could tempt me to change, if I could afford them and had the right room.

I would never be tempted to go with anything more than a small and easily maintained tube amp and would not want to rule out SS.

I learned a few more things about Avantgarde here that will keep them on my list of potentially coveted audio gear down the road I would say!

A bigger room may be the best answer yet....

"But you will always have integration problems with horns. Instruments will change positions depending on where they are in frequency."

Maybe not in big rooms where distance to the speakers can make even a horn approximate a point source more.

In smaller or even typical rooms, I would probably have some concerns because I also believe point sources to be the optimal configuration for a speaker from a spatial integration perspective.

So purchasing a bigger room after horns is looking like a better and better idea all the time now!

"only a point source driver, capable of really quick peaks across the frequency range from 20 Hz to probably 100k Hz, and with efficiency of over 100 would really suffice."

That's why I'm still waiting for the world's first ever field coil based walsh driver design because that could take traditionally inefficient Walsh drivers to an even greater level.

It will also likely cost a fortune and potentially be difficult to maintain properly though, otherwise someone would have probably done it by now.

Oh well....

Atmasphere,

That's good information. Thanks!

"There's this discontinuity that I've always heard between those different drivers."

I've always found matching two radically distinct kinds of drivers (in terms of efficiency and dynamics) in the same system to be inherently problematic, but have not noticed a problem in my admittedly limited exposure to what I would consider to be some of the better horn designs I have heard.

I have no horns and I do not think I am deluded?

My good recordings sound lifelike enough to me these days that I am satisfied and I listen to a lot of live music.

Hasn't always been that way though....

Of course I suppose if one is deluded, one would be clueless as to your actual state so who knows?

I suppose we are all deluded if we think our stereo sounds like anything other than what it is, a recreation of other people's musical creations in our homes in a manner that meets our needs and wants.

That's about all one can expect. If one expects anything more than that, then they are delusional, but nobody can prove them wrong either, so I suppose it really doesn't matter what fantasies one pursues as long as they enjoy it and do not hurt anyone in the process.

Maybe horns aren't necessarily fatiguing but the horn zealot's appear to have mostly chased the non-believer's away from this thread about what to do after horns nontheless?

I'll speak treason and assert that there are many good cost and sound quality competitive options after good horns that also include excellent dynamics, including but not limited to other horns, if horns are what toot your YNW.

Wow, horn guys can be high strung!

Must be all those dynamics!

Makes me wonder.

Totem's are not a bad idea but you need a really juicy amp!

mbl is certainly one design that can raise the bar in many regards but differently as might good horns and other more esoteric designs.

I am of the opinion that there is only so much that can be achieved with conventional dynamic box designs, though good ones can certainly still be most enjoyable. More unconventional approaches must be taken to raise the bar further in particular aspects of sound. Horns are one approach that can in terms of dynamics. mbl is another. Walsh drivers like those in the reasonably affordable and compact OHM Walsh speakers I am partial to are another.

I was at a live performance this weekend at the local symphony hall and one of the things I was taking note of was dynamics.

My thoughts at the end was that not all live (or recorded) performances are equally "dynamic". The venue size, acoustics and where you are listening from are big factors.

At this particular event, the sound quality was very good but nothing that a good home system of most any ilk would have any problem matching, at least in most peoples rooms at home.

I have been to other performances where the dynamics were absolute top notch and also then came home to find my rig to be up to the task of delivering equal results in terms of dynamics within the confines of my various listening room.

I have no horns.

I have also heard some top notch horns that absolutely sparkled and were jaw dropping in regards to dynamics and ability to generate musical involvement.

So my current assessment is that yes horns are a good way to achieve excellent dynamics but are not the only game worth playing for most in that regard.

"I still do not think those "non dynamic" live performances are easily duplicated by a system. But it can be close."

Yes, I agree of course that nothing can be duplicated exactly, especially when translated from a large venue into one's listening room.

But My point is that I do not expect exact replication, only quality reproduction within my own space, and I have no issues being satisfied fully with the dynamics aspect of the reproduction in my case, sans horns.

Nevertheless, I would very much like to try a pair of good horns in my home at some point in that I am always interested to hear what other kinds of good reproduction may sound like. Each usually has its own set of things to like.

Just like two talented artists, like Monet and Rembrandt, would offer two radically different but each uniquely interesting renditions of the same subject matter if given the opportunity I would expect.

I'll probably make it to Capital Audiofest again this year and will be looking to hear those!!

Danley appears to have some unique design approaches. VEry interesting. Thanks for pointing those out.

A hearing aid?

Not from normal or proper use so much, though the increased potential to do harm to ones ears is certainly there even then, but you have to wonder about the potential of high efficiency speakers to do harm to your hearing especially when something goes wrong.

It should be a real concern to consider I would think. No matter how good something may be, increased risk of causing permanent damage to ones hearing is not something to ignore.