Was I Expecting Too Much

The OP @cbl117 has stated, 

" I've narrowed down to AMG and Brinkmann.  I was able to audition an AMG Viella yesterday, and was looking to audition a Bardo or Taurus for comparison."  

"How am I going to know what I want to purchase without demoing the options?"

The first statement is suggesting that it is known what is wanted to be purchased.

The differences between Brands is the drives are DD or BD.

The differences between the Models is that one is able to be configured to have a dual mounting for a Tonearm.

All the above models can receive a large selection of TA's or TA/Cart' configurations.

As the OP has not made it known about their intentions for the TA or Cart's to be used, the opportunity to learn how a assembly of ancillaries might best Wed to the TT's shortlisted.

If I were in the market to spend $15-$20K, I would be most interested in what I was going to be buying into, and especially how owners of the same or very similar describe their experience, if a report is offered. With this info at hand, the conversation one has about about their expectation for what is to be demo'd will be more sure footed and project a solid intention.

Not too many years ago I was introduced to and become very interested in a Bespoke Built Tonearm that has been produced in small numbers by a very adept EE with skills that are extended into micro engineering. To experience the Tonearm in use and compare it to my other owned TA's. Over the course of a year, I travelled a few journey's that are close to 200 miles as a round trip. The outcome being all roads lead to the purchase of this Bespoke Built TA, it has superseded in use all other owned TA's. 

I learnt what I was buying into, and am also quite confident, I will have to find another £5K - £10K as a purchase price to supersede the selected TA. I can say this as it has made a TA that is very respected and retails at £3.5K seem quite low in quality as a performance.  

The route to how the purchase is finalised would be the secondary consideration. 

@kennyc

I’d have to side with the seller as having more weight. To choose otherwise would seem to enslave the seller to the buyer’s expectations at the seller’s expense.

I would say, it depends. In the short term, then maybe yes. However, any seller playing the long game will likely lose more than just that one potential buyer over (perceived?) rude service since the individual with the bad experience is likely to share with their audiophile friends and even with random strangers on forums such as this.

I would vote the other way based on the golden rule; “treat others as”…no, not that Golden Rule, this one - “Whoever has the gold rules”.

One last thought, if you are going to be a Soup Nazi, the soup had better be damn good.

@viridian My comment about internet sales was a general comment, and not a response to anything you posted.  Sorry for the confusion.

This discussion just seems to be a preference between the extremes of "the customer is treated as always right (reminds me of me Sears retail days) vs the seller can do whatever they want as they are not obligated to serve anyone (Seinfeld soup nazi).

One one hand, the customer should be treated with dignity regardless if their perceived economic ability appears to be inadequate.

On the other hand, the seller is trading his time, energy, resources for income aka money. It’s not unreasonable for the seller to try to maximize his efforts to maximize their income which is especially motivated if they have a family to support. This can entail weighing the probability of their spending time and effort vs making a sale, this seems reasonable.  Perceived avoidance of wasting time/effort, especially in a work environment, is quite common.

So, on the scale of things, the seller has freedom to be self serving vs the buyer not satisfied with the seller’s lack of proper customer service I’d have to side with the seller as having more weight. To choose otherwise would seem to enslave the seller to the buyer’s expectations at the seller’s expense.

@viridian the dealer frequently uses this forum to push product by respond to posts “I’m considered A,B,C” with I have X for sale.” Not cool, IMHO.

To the argument that the dealer is protecting himself from someone auditioning a something, and then buying it cheaper on the internet, this seems highly unlikely with a high end turntable, especially a Brinkmann.

It does seem the idea of a Brand attaining a large proportion of sales over their competitors is quite a challenge. There are always a selection of Brands to be seen on a Shortlist or offered up a suggestion as ones to consider. Attached to this are the Brands Models that fit into the constraint of the allowed for Budget. 

All Brands are seemingly needing to depend on there retail support to get their products into the widespread arena, where the products can be encountered and demonstrated to inquirers.

Does it not make sense that a Brand should have a basic guideline given to a retailer on how they wish for their product to be represented. I would assume as much exposure through demonstration would be key.

It would also be beneficial to the Brand if they had a means put in place, for a customer/prospective customer to report back on how they feel they have been dealt with in relation to retailer handling the preparations for a sale.

A info being shared of this type, will certainly assist a Brand in identifying where there is wriggle room for their potential customers to encounter a satisfying experience.

Not much in addition would be required to sift out any Hoax Reporting.   

Years ago I worked with a country bumpkin sort of guy who was single and lived very modestly. He walked into a bank and asked for the President (back when there actually were bank Presidents). They asked why he needed to see him and he explained he wanted to open an account. They blew him off and he left. He went to another bank and asked the same question. The bank President came out and greeted him and invited him into his office. The guy asked the President the maximum amount of an insured account. The President told him and he opened an an account with the maximum deposit. You see, he was raised by parents who were also frugal and left him money. He also traded in classic automobiles as a hobby. This is the kind of guy that everything he did turned to gold. The moral of the story is, you never know who has money and you can't judge people by their appearance. I would argue that if you're looking for a high end product, you already know the price point or you wouldn't be asking about it. The other things is, the shop owner doesn't know who you know! 😉

If you have a brick & mortar location your first job is to generate foot traffic and people willing to come in and sniff at whatever it is you are selling. That achieved, your next job is to have the sales staff to be able to actually be sales staff and make the sale, close the deal, get it done, satisfy a customer so that they have no reason to go elsewhere. It's freakin high-end retail 101. Hell, it's general retail 101. I worked retail at higher end shops (not audio) for decades and customer service was always dealing with tire kickers, but being damn smart enough not to piss anyone off. Must be tough these days with much of the world buying online, and coming into a store just to fondle the gear and then go search online for the lowest price. It doesn't matter if a "demo" or listening session is not really a benefit for most purchases, you as a dealer do it as it is the right thing to do. Make the customer feel like the purchase is an elevating experience among fellow enthusiasts. If you can't close the sale enough of the time you deserve to go away. That said, must be tough to be selling audio gear these days when there is more snake oil and fallacies than ever before to deal with, and people have drank all the Kool Aid that contradicts electrical principles!!!!! :-) 

@mdalton 

All good points.  And as @markimiller suggests, IF this is the dealer in question, he might be an old burnt out purveyor of audio hardware that's ready to trade in his surplus gear for a golf cart.

My intent is not to win (or, lose) an argument here but, rather, inject a viewpoint based on decades of experience for consideration.  I mentioned in an earlier post that it is unfortunate that the dealer missed an opportunity for a face-to-face with this (potential) customer.  It could have paid off for both of them?

My approach to potential customers was one where neither party was over-leveraged, or under-leveraged.  This seemed to work out well for me, and my customers.  Your example of a job interview does fit into the dynamic.  The dealer's career objectives (both short term and long term) does depend on the outcome(s).  The dealer's career is enhanced (or, diminished) by what is about to happen so, yes, he does have a vested interest in who is is "interviewing".  In this regard, whether we're aware of it our not, everyone we do business with (where there is a lot at stake) is going thru a mental checklist to see if they really want to do business with us.  Our portfolio included providing technology, home theater, distributed audio, etc. and using your contractor example, we were given the advice that if the customer/client is badmouthing the other trades on the job, it's probably best to bow out of the project.  They aren't going to like you, either.  And we may be unintentionally communicating the wrong messages to the dealer, contractor, etc. and disqualify ourselves before we even get started.  Probably the best outcome, for all concerned.

In my career, I had to look under every rock to discover business opportunities and was never in a position to pick and choose only elite customers/clients.  But I'll say, looking back, after 70+ hour average work weeks, I should have had a better filter on whom I did business with.  I missed a lot of life and living.  But, I did offer an extraordinary level of service.  Wonder if that will be included in my o'bit?

This is a standard sales technique - for auto sales.  For Stereo equipment not so much.  
 

Car sales is a different business model.  How should a bm shop deal with tire kickers who will waste their time, then go buy online?  I have known people who think they are clever doing that - there are people like that who post regularly on Agon.  
 

Churches and 2-parent families are in decline, politicians’, athletes and media stars’  behavior is execrable.  What is the source of morality, ethics or integrity now?  It’s no surprise that there are greedy merchants like that.  All you can do is avoid them. 
 

Naming names would be the honest and helpful thing to do in a thread like this. Vagueness can potentially tar and feather the reputation of shops which avoid such miscreant behavior.  If it’s an accurate report based on personal experience, it’s not legally actionable.  Let a salesman who behaved this way, and shop which condones it,  reap what he sowed.

The Covina dealer is generally unpleasant. He sounds burnt out and just wants to make sales. He also has the nasty habit of asking what you own and insulting the stuff he doesn’t sell. 

F___ him!!!  Buy your new TT from a different place and make sure he knows you bought it.  

@waytoomuchstuff 
 

Again, I am going to have to respectfully disagree.  There is no “interview process” in this transaction.  This not akin to a job interview where the employee and employer - in the best of circumstances - have something closer to equal power in the relationship.  Instead, this is a case where the consumer has money that the dealer wants.  Yes, the dealer has something the consumer wants, but the dealer is not unique in that regard.  A much better analogy would be when I hire a contractor to do work on my house.  I suppose there are some contractors who walk away if they discover that I’m talking to other contractors - “shopping for” other contractors? - but that usually means they are way overpriced and/or not to be trusted (and maybe just a little bit crazy, lol!).

I hate to say it but most of them want you to come in and listen to one song and walk out with $100k in product. All paid at retail price. I have never had my ultimate experience which would be being turned loose with the equipment that I want to listen to with no one standing next to me. It doesn't happen in my experience.

@mdalton

My point is that during the "interview process" there are certain key words that throw up a red flag and indicate that the potential customer is a "shopper" and not a good prospect. How this is framed and communicated matters. The dealer may be cautious and protective of time and assets, perhaps (based on past experiences). But, not crazy.

@waytoomuchstuff 

Huh?  Since when is it not ok for a consumer to say “I’m shopping for”?  Since when are dealers immune from having to compete in a market economy where price and service are key components of a consumer’s buying decision?  You seem to be suggesting that the consumer should, in effect, tell the dealer that he/she is going to buy from the dealer no matter what.  And that, to me is upside down, and, respectfully, crazy.

The first MINUTE of the interview process between potential customer and dealer is the most important.  It is during this period were it will be determined IF there is a valid reason for either party to continue pursuing their obnjectives.

Key words from a customer such as "I'm shopping for a ...." is a bad place to begin a conversation.  The term "shopping for" can have many connotations including: "I'm going to buy where I'm going to get the best deal".  Dealers have seen this movie before, so some quick math (I'm going to offer my time and resources and my prospect of closing this sale are on the order of 20%) and may prefer to withdraw.  "Ready to buy" puts his prospect at 60%+.  Simple math.  Business 101.

What a frustrating experience for the OP.  I get what @russ69 and others have said about how frustrating it is for dealers that have to deal with tire kickers who then buy off the internet, but it seems to me that if a retailer is to compete with the internet they need to provide an experience that can’t be provided there.  I think it is reasonable for a dealer to be up front about it and when dealing with purchasers of megabucks components to ask a few screening questions.  It may also be reasonable to charge a small fee for an audition, maybe $100, refundable upon purchase of that item or any other item from the dealer.  For someone interested in a $20K component that isn’t to much of a hit, and it might screen off enough of the non serious buyers.  The old paradigm of investing in a potential customer just doesn’t work in this day and age

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=QJ-1sdHCL5I

If a boss overhears an employee speaking to a customer in a curt manner, or any manner that could be considered even remotely rude (even under a liberal definition of ‘rude’ - but these are the rules of engagement in customer service), that employee could be fired that day. At best, receive a talking-to.  
This owner dismissed all precepts of customer service.  
Maybe the owner was having a bad day and isn’t like that normally. Still, not your problem.  
The owner effectively said, “I can’t be trusted and I don’t want your business.”  
In the words of Aldo Raine, “obliiiiige him.”

@clearthinker @raysmtb1

this is why I don’t listen to gear at hifi stores. I look at it. I know they can tell when I walk in that I will not buy anything.

I’d like to get the most value for my money and usually I buy used, and I don’t feel I should waste the dealer’s time with pushing buttons for me.

"Fortunately" in high end stores there is nothing I could afford anyway so it wouldn’t help my decision to listen to a $2.5K component.

I think the answer to the dealers’ problem is buying and selling used gear, or just "trade-in". But so far, they weren’t interested in anything I offered, including what they sold me a few years ago/

Let's assume the OP has accurately portrayed the interaction without bias or self-serving emphasis.  It so, then the dealer should be respected for his honesty.  He said call me back when you're ready to purchase. He didn't say ready to buy a Brinkmann from him, but when you're ready to actually buy a turntable, then come see him.  Now when that time comes the two of you can meet and be serious.  At that point he should give you his best offer.  Maybe you'll make a deal, maybe you won't.  It takes two to tango and being overly sensitive about the initial interaction can mislead.   Remember, he did call you back within a few minutes.

Sorry, I did misread the post.... I wouldn't buy anything from this dealer as he was obviously showing you he wasn't anyone you would want to deal with.

Well judging from the response, this question really struck a nerve. Whatever the exact conversation was between OP and the dealer (FWIW I believe OP), we’ve all been in this type of situation.

I normally make the purchase from the dealer that spent the time to demo a product, which irritates my wife (the household CFO), but how else to assure that the dealers are here for new products, upgrades (many, many with my Linn TT dealer) and service?

Over the years I’ve focused my buying with a few sellers and developed good relationships that have proven beneficial many times over. This often includes at-home trials because of those relationships. Probably 2/3rds of the time those loans lead to purchases and those that don’t are for specific reasons that a dealer has never found objectionable.

As far as the dealer community, I appreciate the comments they’ve made. It somehow seems that a dealer ought to be able to spend under an hour with a potential buyer under most circumstances. I think a potential purchaser who is asked to keep the demo to say 30-60 minutes until they’re ready to make a purchase wouldn’t have reason to object. In this case OP was asking for an appointment so dealer could have suggested a time that would be less busy perhaps. The dealer doesn't need to sit with the potential client the entire time either, so really much less dealer-time involved.

We teach people how to treat us.  Besides, demoing audio equipment is akin to the 'test drive' when buying a new car.  We all do it, but all it proves is that the car can go around the block a few times.  For any big ticket purchase, you should, beforehand, know more about the item than any salesman.

Cheers

@mdalton my point is my point. You don't have to listen to everything before you buy nowadays...whether it be 5 figures or not. There are pretty liberal return policies today. If you don't like, you return it. It is also near impossible to listen to everything you buy today. Not a lot of dealers (not Like the old days) and half of them don't even have everything in stock or on the showroom floor. My other point is that most turntables sound pretty darn good at a certain price point. Yes, they sound different maybe, but they all play records and most do a good job at that. Welcome to today's world.

@raysmtb1 

Yeah.  You pleaded guilty in your post.  So you deserve a lesser sentence.

But I wonder how many people on here think your actions are honest and reasonable.

@clearthinker hey man ——you. I was being honest when I shared that with you guys. Who are you to judge me man? very uncool.. what good does it do to chastise somebody after they’ve been completely honest? Honesty should be rewarded. I think you should reconsider how clear you really think.h

I'm sorry this happened to the OP, it is a real kick in the pants to be treated poorly.

As someone who has been on both sides of this equation (customer and dealer) I understand and sympathize with both parties here. When I was in my early 20s I walked into a showroom for a store with a solid reputation and asked if I could check out their turntables. The salesperson, who was involved in a discussion with fellow salespeople about some sportsball event responded to my request with a casual thumb jerk, stating "turntables are over there" while barely pausing his conversation about bad calls by refs and other related pressing matters.  I had saved about $10K and was excited about getting into this "hobby" for real, and it really took the wind out of my sales to be treated like a schlub.  A year or so later, I was looking for a "basic" job while I was completing my time in the old college meatgrinder, and applied at the same audio store. I got the job, and was thrilled to not only be gainfully employed, but actually getting paid to listen to and recommend audio products, the sole purpose of which was to bring some joy into clients' homes. The guy who had dismissed me still worked there, and I reminded him of the event. He didn't remember it (funny how things can have such an impact on one person in a transaction but none on the other) but was embarassed by it and it made an impact on him when I relayed the story. I, on the other hand, now understood why someone could be so cavalier toward a potential customer. I still recall the first time I spent time with a customer who wanted to hear a system with this DAC, then that preamplifier, then with this phono pre, then with that IC loom, and so on.  After about 2 and a half hours, he pulled out a sheet he had printed at home with an online dealer (who I had never heard of) and asked that I match the price of about 40% off retail for the phono preamplifier. This was in the late 90s, so the internet was still a bit of a novelty, especially for shopping for high end audio. I was rather curt with my reply, and offered a discount at around half of what was being asked.  The customer declined and said he'd buy it online. That customer become persona non grata in our store after that, and I would guess he went on to burn bridges at other dealers after wandering around our showroom and being treated like the schnorer he was.  Having said all that, to this day I treat every customer with the same level of respect, regardless of fashion sense, age, or gender. By giving everyone the "benefit of the doubt", one will (almost) always get the same treatment in kind.

So the problem isn't JUST online dealers or online-buying tire kickers, it's the willingness of consumers to trade bargains for service. The Walmartiziation of the world resulted in a warehouse culture that is more interested in market share than client relationships. It's a vicious circle.

@raysmtb1    Your justification is garbage.  It's no justification at all.  Fact is you premeditatedly defrauded the dealer by stealing his time when you knew you would buy the product, but not from him.

Shame on you.  But you are right.  In a world where more and more people are dishonest.  You are in good (bad) company.

And finally, Jeff Bezos will own us all.

Wow! Get a grip.

@viridian Really?  You’re suggesting that we can’t trust each other regarding our requests for help from each other?  The OP was simply asking if his original expectation was reasonable.  The only basis for our response is to accept his “side of the story.”  It’s his story after all.  And he was not asking you if he believed him, though it’s weird if you don’t.  The problem is we’re not even listening to each other.  The purpose of this forum is to support each other in this beautiful hobby, to show a little empathy and support for our fellow travelers. It’s not about you.  It’s about us, the community.  I think I have a pretty solid grip, actually.

@audioguy85  Are you saying that because you’ve purchased a certain way, that the more traditional alternative - actually listening to a 5-figure product before purchase - is an illegitimate approach?  If that’s not your point, what is?

@ricmci. what the h are you talking about? Please read the OP.  He didn’t ask to take the turntable home “for the weekend”.  The dealer told him he didn’t want him (OP) to come into his store to demo a product on his floor until he was closer to making a decision, not worth his (the dealer’s) time.  This is retail-nazi behavior!  Good lord, can’t we all agree on the basic facts, instead of making sh_t up?

I have yet to hear a turntable prior to buying it. In today's world you can just return it and get a refund. Let's see, I've bought the following turntables over the Years, yea not the ultimate in turntables mind you...music hall mmf-7.3, thorens td 240-2, thorens td 1500, technics mk7, Avid ingenium, Music Hall mmf-7, lenco l90 vintage, denon dp37, thorens td 203, pro ject the classic, pro ject the classic sb...and so on...not one of them did I listen to before purchase...every one of them was/is a great sounding table. 

I understand the concept that better customer service equals better sales. 

But, I also think that there may be internal research that shows that in store demos don't lead to increased sales. If anything, it may lead to increased costs from having to pull personal to perform duties that don't result in increased profits. Whether it would lead to down the road sales is uncertain but hard to make a business plan based on what may or may not happen in the future. Maybe I am wrong, but I suspect if it were a straight forward issue then everyone would do it the same way.

 I think it is short minded to think these dealers will bend over backwards for us because we might buy their product. There are very few car dealers who will let you take home their product for the weekend. If they do, you are probably a customer who has bought from them a few times previously.

It would be nice to hear from those with knowledge of this subject such as Troy in New Jersey. 

Online sales has indeed hurt a lot of businesses but I think w/  mid fi equipment on up, the attention to proper handling, set up, service if needed, it’s wise to buy from an experienced dealer. Additionally, most of the better audio brands are not available new for any discount sizable discounts from online companies. Used equipment is of course a different story. 
 

Fortunately, as a restaurateur, the internet has only helped my business & the lack of consistent quality of food & service at the majority of chain restaurants has only helped to make my offerings look & taste better. 
 

Everybody knows what the problem is. It is the Internet. I ran into this at a local dealer. Looking for some Macintosh products. The first thing he said to me is.” are you here to shop or are you gonna buy one on the Internet used?” I kind of felt bad for the guy, that’s probably what I was going to do. I could tell it was burned out, and probably realize that he was at the end of his business life. I can only imagine the amount of people that they get going into the store Doing exactly what I was going to do. The way that I justify it is that if I buy something used from somebody with more money than me hopefully they’re going to a dealer and buying something new. But I have no way to guarantee that. It’s just the way of the world and retail is , the new person in the economy to take a hit. I had a bunch of friends who work around the printing industry and they all got their butt kicked 20 years ago. Now it’s stereo guys turn. I guess at some point we’re all going to get to take our turn . 

I have several owned successful restaurants over 40 +  years & know something about guest service. That owner was being foolish & now probably lost the golden opportunity to gain another loyal customer. It’s a bit different In restaurants because have to eat everyday but repeat clientele is the heart & soul of just about any business. That could have been you!

Because turntables are so fragile, a home audition is tricky but in the price range of those fine turntables, a private session could be arranged in store possibly w/ some of your own stuff ( phono amp, amp, speakers, whatever). If they did this, treated you well & offered you a good deal on the spot, there’s a good chance you would buy right then or at least in a few months when you were actually ready. 
 

They clearly have no faith in their salesmanship for both the product & themselves. I would look elsewhere. 

I can't believe that one poster defended this nonsense. I'd love to know what he does for a living so i could never deal with him.

What a jerk!

In this day and age where there so few good Hifi stores left, it’s sad that any shop would treat a potential customer so poorly.

@russ69 you must have a very low threshold for defining someone a tire kicker.

""Investing" in a future customer doesn't pay the bills."

The store was open under normal business hours, the staff was already there, hell the gear was even setup!  Surely my request doesn't add to their sunk cost or take from their bottom line.  I'll give them the benefit of the doubt and admit perhaps I'm adding opportunity cost.

"I'm also not sure how you compare the sound of tables with the endless differences in the supporting equipment."

That's true, trying to make sound comparisons between two tables on two completely different systems is going to be filled with conjecture, but there are other variables to compare like the operating experience.  I'm not going to drop 5 figures on something without getting my hands on it first.  Others may, and that's cool.

@frankmc195 You misread my original post. I never asked to demo the gear at my home. I asked if I could stop by his store since the gear was already confirmed to be setup there.

"Go to the dealer, sit down and listen there"

I tried. He said no.

An interesting aside, I have purchased all of my recent gear either from an online dealer or directly from the manufacturer and have not had one single bad experience. To the contrary All the online shops have been very accommodating even when problems develop.