A current thread discussing the best tweaks gave consistently high ranking for component isolation. I am curious to know where all the vibration is coming from that we are addressing with isolation. I understand that high volume listening can create significant vibration, but for the sake of this discussion let's assume we are listening at moderate levels. Can the vibrations from moderate sound levels affect the quality of sound? Are there other common significant sources of vibration that we are guarding against that can dramatically affect sound?
Just made a base - 3/4" mdf "box" filled with sand.
The TT weighs just shy of 60lbs, the base is approx 25lbs
My thinking is this. The vibrations present in the component needs to go somewhere. The vibrations in the environment need to be prevented from getting to the component.
The component should be coupled to something the vibrations can dissipate to. The whole thing should be decoupled from the "world"
So I’m looking to put roller blocks between the TT and the base. It will both couple the TT as well as allow for horizontal movement.
Then, I’m thinking either ISOAcoustics pads under the whole thing, or, springs. So many sources for springs around that can serve virtually any purpose, and are inexpensive. Just need to find springs that are the right diameter (so they are stable), the right height (again, so they are stable) and the right spring rate so the whole unit floats. Meaning, the same force is required to "lift" it as is required to "push" it a given distance.
Seems pretty straight forward...
If floating in zero gravity, and kicking your feet about (not touching anything) vibrations in your body are going to be minimal, all the forces are contained within you. Now, back on terra firma, and you kick the ground, the forces come back into your body. Very disruptive...
I appreciate the arguments against springs and I don’t really know how they work… but I went from spikes on my floorstanders to pucks, to mid- grade springs to expensive (dampened) springs and the improvement kept getting more noticeable. Springs really work @clearthinker
also, having spent 35+ years developing, building, testing, supporting high technology systems, I find that mutual trust and respect betwwen mechanics and engineers achieves what neither “ camp “ can do alone. Attitude is free, results not so much….
Cool stuff like F-22, 787, F/A-18, SLAM-ER, Longbow, Wideband Gapfiller….the list is endless…..or seems so now, viewed as it were from the rear view mirror….
@pekri good on you for building the box !,,,,, Let us know the results and refinement over time.
I just moved my Pardo LPS with stillpoints on to a 40 year dry Curley Maple 12/4 block…… maybe put up a picture in systems..next few days, listening results before…
My
thinking is this. The vibrations present in the component needs to go
somewhere.
Actually they need to be prevented from going anywhere.
The vibrations in the environment need to be prevented from
getting to the component.
Springs do both.
The component should be coupled to
something the vibrations can dissipate to. The whole thing should be
decoupled from the "world"
The idea is the component itself will dissipate vibrations faster.
So I’m looking to put roller blocks
between the TT and the base. It will both couple the TT as well as allow
for horizontal movement.
Then, I’m thinking either ISOAcoustics
pads under the whole thing, or, springs. So many sources for springs
around that can serve virtually any purpose, and are inexpensive. Just
need to find springs that are the right diameter (so they are stable),
the right height (again, so they are stable) and the right spring rate
so the whole unit floats. Meaning, the same force is required to "lift"
it as is required to "push" it a given distance.
IsoAcoustics have been compared to springs and Pods. Search around, several have upgraded from IsoAcoustics to Pods or Podiums. The improvement is huge. IsoAcoustics cost a lot more than ordinary springs but are hardly any better. Maybe not any better at all, if the springs are carefully selected and tuned to load.
You can search around and find plain springs on line. It is a tremendous amount of work, and if you guess wrong there is really not a lot you can do about it but try again. If you want to go this route let me know, I have a small selection you can probably find what you want. But I wouldn't recommend it, not unless maybe you just love doing things the hard way.
That is why after a few tests I switched and started using Nobsound springs. They are just as effective but a whole lot more versatile. They can be adjusted for just about any load from 20lbs to over 150lbs simply by changing the number of springs.
Nobsound work so well they are end game for a lot of guys. If you want another huge bump in performance then go to Townshend Pods. Whether they work best under the sand box or between that box and the turntable will depend on the details. Study mine, and by the way the top shelf is a sand bed in cast concrete with granite on top of the sand. Pods between the granite and the BDR Source Shelf isolate the turntable. Very similar to what you are doing.
The two obvious and central components needing vibration control are the TT and speakers. IME, other component also benefit but the improvements are more subtle.
Everything vibrates. Our planet has a heartbeat also. Looking at one aspect is our AC power. It vibrates at 60 or 50 Hz a second. I inspect my breaker panel once or twice a year. The connection will get lose over time due to vibration. All we can is to keep trying to make things better. Lets all try and keep these forums on topic. We can all do better Respectfully Joe
Yes everything vibrates. But some will gladly play others by stoking fear and uncertainty. Including fear that some undetected vibration will negatively impact some audiophile’s sound. Once a fear of some problem exists you can then sell some expensive esoteric fix that nobody would care about otherwise. It’s how these things work. Marketing is all a game you know.
This brings up the question that since literally everything vibrates, is it plausible to posit that the higher quality the equipment, the more sensitive it is to audibly transmissive vibrations, therefore it requires more sophisticated damping than lower quality equipment where a more extreme amount of damping is not required to improve the sound as it has reached it’s improvement threshold?
The two obvious and central components needing vibration control are the
TT and speakers. IME, other component also benefit but the improvements
are more subtle.
That's what I thought too. That's why my first component to get Pods was my turntable. Makes sense, right? Took some time for John Hannant to talk me into trying them under my tube amp. When I did, what a surprise! The improvement was somewhat different but at least as great as under the turntable.
The difference was with the turntable the vast majority of improvement was in the area of resonance control. A huge amount of coloration, that had not even been audible, was removed. Every instrument sounded so much more distinctively like what it really is. Audiophiles love to talk about hearing the differences between guitars, all these little sonic signatures that tell you what is what. Dynamics got a little better, details, blacker background, all that. But the bulk of it was in the area of truth of timbre.
Under the tube amp this was reversed. There was a big improvement in truth of timbre, but an even bigger improvement in dynamics! That amp just seemed to come alive with Pods! So I kept going and tried the phono stage. Same thing. The phono stage was sort of in between the other two, a more even improvement across the board, no one area standing out like with the amp and table.
Now at this point I have already put springs under the power conditioner and subs,
about the only thing left is the motor controller. This has been on cones for years. This was also the least responsive of all my components, to all kinds of tweaks. They worked, just not nearly as much as elsewhere. Now with all these leftover springs I decided to try them and much to my surprise the improvement was about as good as under the other stuff! So I played around a little more, and now it is on Pods.
It may well be that my system is so much more resolving now than years ago things that would barely have registered are now as if viewed under a microscope. For sure Moabs made a huge improvement, but there's a lot more than that. Anyway, that is pure speculation. Only thing I know for sure, vibration control, when it is done at Townshend Pods level works really good under everything.
@mc I’m hoping the industrial online spring retailers can help sort out the correct spring based on total weight. May have to diy some kind of spring damper. Suspect the Minus K gear will be difficult to diy…
It’s sad that a topic worth discussing gets sidelined by the same few posters.
What a patently silly thing to say, unless you’re in a certain someone’s corner who always starts these fights. That, and didn't you get the memo to stay on topic?
Yes, it's probably the superior passive
isolation money can buy. I was also looking into it for myself, and it's
really really expensive. I just can't (at the moment) work out how to justify the cost, make it look good and have it work with my stand mount speakers. But yeah, excellent products.
@nonoise - yeah, you're allright mate. I was a bit rude, I regret it now. Apologies.
Yes everything vibrates. But some will gladly play others by stoking
fear and uncertainty. Including fear that some undetected vibration will
negatively impact some audiophile’s sound. Once a fear of some problem
exists you can then sell some expensive esoteric fix that nobody would
care about otherwise. It’s how these things work. Marketing is all a
game you know.
@mapman Well the real issue here I take with that comment is that I have actually heard isolation done well, and you can choose to ignore the technology, however it damned well works.
I couldn't care less what brand is used. I do care that such a relevant advancement in the resolution and enjoyment for others would be stifled by misinformation based upon +30 year old ideologies.
And there's more advancement to be used in conjunction with broad frequency isolation, namely, tuned mass dampers. Stick to your guns, but don't mind those of us who are still going to tell you, that you are not correct.
Broad frequency isolation used on traditional speaker enclosures will absolutely improve the resolution of the loud speaker. And it helps with the structure the speakers are played within as well, the substrate, the walls, the component stands.
You are already enjoying broad frequency isolation when you are either a passenger or driving an automobile, perhaps it's time to move forward with your sound too? And even if not, hopefully others will at least discover for themselves that unfortunately, in the particular case, you are simply not correct.
The isolation springs for speakers baffle me as an improvement in sound.
We go through all of the effort to get the speakers in the correct place - distance to front wall, distance to side walls, distance between tweeters, distance to back wall, bass traps, tweeter absorbers, etc.
Then we decide that having the speaker move improves the sound.
Please explain what I am missing. The only thing that comes to mind it that some thing else must be moving, too?
I believe the premise is that the speakers are resting motionless on the springs at a specific tension and the function of the spring is to isolate/dissipate vibration.
@perki - The minus K approach would require some engineering based upon some pretty complicated math.
If you’re going to order springs for your speakers, some specifications I have found that may help you. (specific to compression springs)
springs should have approximately 50% compression under load, this aught to allow for the highest amplitude and frequency range of isolation.
the diameter being either greater than or equal to the height of the spring under load will help it to deform along it’s length rather than simply twist and collapse under the load.
the least number of springs (usually three) the better, and use the same spring rate to level the mass supported, move the springs to positions that level the load. Do not change the spring rates to level the load if it can be avoided, move the springs around the center of gravity.
4Hz isolation or lower if possible (minus K have some that do 2Hz I think?)
loads that are tall and skinny (like floor stander speakers) will be able to move when they may be bumped, moving their center or gravity over the base, where gravity will have it’s way with them. Broaden the base so that is much less likely to fall and get damaged
the substrate supporting the springs is another factor to consider, the more the springs deform to the load’s movement the better
If you consider the speaker cabinet to be somewhat like a very rigid balllon, the lower frequency driver will create a high and lower pressure within the cabinet. This will push and pull at the walls of the cabinet, much like pulling and pushing a post, which at the right frequency with the right amount of force will move back and forth.
These high and low pressures in the enclosure will energise the nodes of the cabinet. Nikola Tesla is an interesting read, and Mythbusters did an excellent episode with a bridge regarding that science. The walls of the enclosure will move in much a similar manner to a balloon. My speakers have been made from composite materials, lined with steel plates, and they move, their nodes can be heard by wrapping my knuckles on them.
Instead of thinking of a speaker enclosure as an entirely rigid structure, consider it to be an ever morphing shape energised by the drivers during playback, especially when played loudly. So instead of it moving on it’s base, the idea of springs is to keep the center of gravity as virtually stationary as possible, trying to keep the drivers held in relative space to the listener.
I believe the premise is that the speakers are resting motionless on the
springs at a specific tension and the function of the spring is to
isolate/dissipate vibration.
Dissipation of cabinet frequencies can be better achieved by using TMD (tuned mass damper) technology. This technology is used in modern high rise buildings with great success.
Basically a TMD for a speaker will allow it to be decoupled from the cabinet, and yet reactive to the vibrations of the cabinet, so that it can cancel out the vibrations by being out of phase in it's motion to the cabinet.
So the springs from below are being deformed by the cabinet, transferring kenetic energy to heat through the springs, and the sprung mass on top moving out of phase with the cabinets to oppose the energies each see from each other.
I know, it may sound absurd, however, in person it sounds truly superb.
Thanks. The springs are for my TT, mostly as an experiment :)
Hoping the spring retailer will help me figure out a spring rate that makes sense. And yeah, height/diameter is important. Don’t want stuff swaying :) And I’m thinking to start with spring rates such that there is an equal force required lifting up or pushing down to have it move the same distance. As close to floating as possible.
And agree, the math behind K Minus is above my pay grade. 1/2hz and 1hz, crazy low they go. It’s fun to play with this stuff. Especially when cost is low. Added bonus of course, when it works.
Vibration haters relent. ALL vibration can't be bad can it? I do not like train causing vibration when it comes through town twice a day. Rumbling ground and squeaking wheels and that damned horn! Yes, that is certainly bad vibration contributing to absolute distraction. Conversely, am I attending to what might be a microscopic demon shaking at my TT's cantilever? Certainly not a train, but undesirable non the less. So then, let's pick our battles here. IF a small vibration passing through a capacitor can be heard by me, then it is a problem. If not then I should pick my battles more wisely. One vibration of some sort or another can be a pest or even deal breaker for listening. Several vibrations combined or not, pulling at the threads of notes themselves lift me from the listening chair displeased and uninterested. Chasing them down is a lottery ticket at best unless you have some insight, no not likely from salesmen or tweakers, but from acquiring usable knowledge of your particular situation and verifiable progress.
I believe the premise is that the speakers are resting motionless on the springs at a specific tension and the function of the spring is to isolate/dissipate vibration.
So the premise is whatever energy would make the speakers move is dissipated through the springs and the tweeter and woofer do not move?
I believe the springs are to isolate the speakers not from their own vibrations, but those from external sources. If the tweeter and woofer did not move, you would have one quiet speaker!
The goal is to isolate the speakers from interacting with the floor. When that happens the vibrating floor essentially becomes part of the speaker typically resulting in muddy bass and obscured midrange and detail. Suspended plywood floors found commonly in modern homes in particular are problematic in this way. Springs under the speakers might work fine though they do not provide a firm foundation for the speakers to operate on. Might produce some interesting results but have never tried. I personally use isolation pads and stands, not springs. I do have some spring loaded feet under my dac but don’t think they are critical for that.
If the tweeter and woofer did not move, you would have one quiet speaker!
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There is just mids and highs being used in my monitors, and they are small planars and ribbons in a 425 # HDF cabinet. There’s not much moving, especially the cabinet, the forward baffle has a convex taper from 12.5 to less than 6" wide.
It doesn’t even collect distortion very well. I still isolate the cabinet from the floor and don’t use the bass section at all. Haven’t for years.. BASS belongs in another cabinet.. Subs are already in their own cabinet.
How do you mechanically time align bass drivers in the same cabinet as the mids and highs.. You can’t... At least I never could.. Sub frequencies forget it... they are WAY out of alignment with the main monitors, much less the whole vibration thing..
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